Curiouser and Curiouser
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Posts posted by Curiouser and Curiouser
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This movie looks absolutely terrible - like it has no real reason to exist aside from perhaps a contractually obligated IP play or something.
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2 hours ago, titanic2187 said:
Down from estimate. The brutal second weekend hold limit the usefulness of this weekend strong hold, especially this past weekend was one of the empty weekend of the year.
Ironic that overseas hold have been stronger than domestic although people claim the story is American-centric.
It's 3.5 hours long, so I don't read too much into anything. Re: the international drop, I really do think it's the Leo factor.
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1 minute ago, MysteryMovieMogul said:
Then why is Apple putting a spin on viewership if none of this matters to them? Unless that's Variety or Paramount's doing...?
Because everyone wants to look good in the press? It's vey normal. I do think they have something to be proud of regardless.
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2 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:
Yeah. I think we have some anecdotal data showing the studio basically wanted the film to perform at least like a film that had a ~120M budget (but I'm going to do a bit more of a dive on that based on iSPOT data and some very old trade pieces).
the actor strike may have made that impossible. I was initially skeptical but now i'm of the opinion it hurt the movie.
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4 minutes ago, MysteryMovieMogul said:
Isn't this also a sign that the film isn't performing as well as the Studio itself hoped?
Everything is always spin. 23.3 million domestic for a 3.5 hour movie alone isn't anything to sneeze at. Let alone that it's not an action movie, it's not IP, and it's depressing.
Call me crazy, but I always thought over 20 million openings were what you'd hope for for an adult drama. The only reason this seems disappointing is the budget. But as has been discussed to infinity, the budget is way less relevant to this project than to non Apple films. Never mind the biggest movie star in the world did almost zero press for this, which I think probably would have boosted that international number even more. I don't believe it's opening in china either.
The budget itself is literally the only drag on its performance right now. And the budget was so outside the realm of typical movie math I don't even know how you can analyze it as a profit loss sort of thing.
That is very cool about NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS. My daughter adores it, so maybe i'll take her. we watch it at home all the time though.
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5 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:
I love Martin Scorsese. I fucking love Silence, I think that Departed is a fun crime flick that introduced me to Infernal Affairs, Wolf of Wallstreet introduced me to Margot Robbie and from his older films, I love Taxi Driver. This is my usual stance with several ‘based on a true story" films, I usually avoid them if they don’t have the marginalized voices front and center. It’s a personal stance. I will watch KOTFM, this was just me echoing the voice of someone that clearly should have a say on this film and have their opinion respected and not chastised.
An Irish guy made a film about my culture's tragedy haha. I'm not Irish. I was happy a big movie did get made about it, but I can't say it was a perfect movie. No one ended up seeing it, which sucks. I do think it's good people are seeing KOTFM.
I think there is more than one way into any historical event, and I look forward to supporting an Osage filmmaker telling their version at some point. Killers of the Flower Moon made me interested in this part of history, so I hope it happens one day. I am sad to admit without these projects, I don't know if it would have captured my attention otherwise. Not because I'm indifferent, but sometimes we need a big neon flashing light on something to force ourselves to stop and watch.
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Just now, Maggie said:
I don't dismiss what you have to say. YOu have some good reasoning, but it makes me wonder if your hate for Marty isn't at the heart of your hate of this movie. It's like you look for every negative detail to spew hate on Marty and the movie.
I don't understand how anyone can hate Martin Scorsese. The man has done so much for cinema through his films and the World Cinema Project. He's a deeply thoughtful and sensitive person. Clearly well meaning. And I have seen so much disdain for him, and maybe that's why I am overly sensitive to critiques of this film. He clearly meant well and tried his best with this story. Apple spent 200 million to try to do it justice.
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6 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:
You got what I meant, I’m only taking a problem with the way you reacted towards Cotes and Carpenter’s comments. And no one here is saying that every single native person or Osage think the same as them. But they do have the right to say what they think of the film, more than any of us that aren’t Osage.
Of course they are entitled to their valid opinions! i'm interested in their opinions. My only critique of them is I simply don't believe a movie premiere is the place for that sort of nuance they were going for. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I really don't think Scorsese cares. I feel like going to a premiere is inherently an endorsement of a film. So to do that and then give the media quotes that become the whole story is a little unusual. no one should ever feel pressure to attend a premiere of a movie they do not support or endorse. But i'm not even saying that applies to them. I think their message was being deliberately misinterpreted by the anti scorsese crowd. That's what I'm reacting to. For the most part, I think their comments were very interesting and thoughtful.
I can relate to seeing your people's tragedy be depicted on screen and the mixed and sad feelings that come with that. This film is of much higher quality than basically the only film that ever tackled my people's story.
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1 minute ago, ZattMurdock said:
So don’t speak for them. Listen to them and echo their voices. Whatever you do, just don’t do a disservice of asking how dare they.
no where did I ever say "how dare they" stop being disingenuous. It's offensive. If anything, the people speaking for Christopher Cote are the ones cynically using his comments to try to justify why this project sucks.
Also, way to ignore the numerous members of the community who are thrilled with the film! It's like this notion that if one person has any issue with it in a community, we all have to immediately feel like their opinion holds the most weight.
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2 minutes ago, ThomasNicole said:
Honestly, i have nothing against Devery.
But being part of anything always come at some price. I feel her opinion is very valid, still, there’s hardly other way of telling that story without violence, it just come together.
I feel she’s being part of a very similar situation, also doing a good work in representation being part of the future Echo TV Show, but still, to do that she entered a franchise that constantly reaffirms imperialistic behaviors.
There’s no way you can do some things without tackle some problems, it’s part of the art.
Still the problem i’m getting here is that members are simply picking some opinions to entitle their own vision, and this is also dehumanizing. It’s on a verge of saying the indigenous people happy with the project don’t exist and they do and they’re very vocal about it. It’s just starting to feel like stanwar the constant use of a few selected opinions to validate your own, and it’s getting weird considering the subject.
I just feel it's a little cynical that Scorsese seems to be getting more criticism than David Grann, when David Grann's book is mostly about the birth of the FBI. People laugh at this budget, but a huge reason the budget was this high was because Scorsese wanted to make this movie "top of the line" and not cut corners or shoot elsewhere. It had to film where it happened. Of course I cannot speak for any indigenous people or the Osage, and everyone has a right to feel however they want. I really didn't mean to suggest Cote can't have his opinion. I just don't agree film premieres are the place for more nuanced critiques or discussions. That's all! He did really good work in the movie and a premiere is about celebrating everyone's work. And promoting the film, which was already hampered by the lack of actors.
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Just now, MysteryMovieMogul said:
The real question is, why does the best mainstream representation of the Osage Nation also have to be about their murder and exploitation?
Someone above mentioned Jewish people not getting upset about Holocaust films, but if that was the only mainstream representation of Jewish people in theaters, they'd be upset.
It doesn't have to be, but that is what THIS story is about. It is about a historical event.
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Just now, MysteryMovieMogul said:
That parenthetical at the bottom. I have to applaud her for going there. I know people will be upset reading that, but she's 100% correct.
This is the story of the Osage Murders. How do you tell a story without murder?
Indigenous women are killed and go missing nowadays at a ridiculously high rate and barely anyone pays attention. This film underscores that sad reality. It draws attention. I just simply don't get how any version of this story is told that doesn't include murder. I felt the Osage characters were treated with a lot of dignity by Scorsese.
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Just now, ZattMurdock said:
So Cotes and Carpenter weren’t courteous with the way an white legendary director depicted their people. How savage and rude of them. They should keep to themselves and just take it and only be complimentary and thankful for the film. If this isn’t proof that there is a lot of white savior shit going on with this film with whites patting themselves on the back and wanting the people that are actually subject to this story where they were brutally murdered to just keep quiet and not be "unpolite", then I don’t know what to tell you.
And it’s quite ironic that Devery Jacobs posted this 50 minutes ago, I’m just going to post this part in order to avoid spoilers where she goes in detail, but this is the last thing I’m going to say on this matter:
They can think what they want and be as vocal as they want in their own time. They were there to promote the movie. Why go at all?
Again, I don't even think their opinions are wrong or invalid. How can I? It's their opinion. Just like I have my opinion about stuff. You typically don't see people dressing up and going on a promotional circuit and being negative is all. It's weird.
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1 minute ago, MysteryMovieMogul said:
And my point is, the reaction I posted from an Indigenous actor in Reservation Dogs shows there are some who wish this film hadn't been made.
And I find that a little nuts, personally. No one even knew this horrible thing happened. Now they do.
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9 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:
Neither I’m saying to not watch the film. What I said is that situations like this is why I’d rather watch documentaries and personal accounts of true events of marginalized people than the film itself, but I will watch the film eventually anyway. This isn’t a story close to me other than it’s familiar to what the colonizers did with the natives here in Brazil. I’d likely never hear of this story without this film.
Also I think it’s crass to say that Cotes "trashed" the film he has worked hard on. He was very polite and didn’t trash it, he was just courageous enough to not pass a blank endorsement, something that would betray his own values as an Osage. It’s a great interview and I think he been outspoken about it is a good thing. It’s my understanding that he isn’t the only one talking about his conflicting feelings in the same interview there as well.
It’s a tad more delicate than that. And I’m also one to criticize when the pendulum goes too far to the left. That’s not the impression that I tried to convey and I actually think if you read what I said with good faith, you’d understand that Cotes - and other Osage that has been outspoken with their feelings in the film, like the other Osage language consultant that was with Cotes at that interview, Jennifer Carpenter - isn’t disavowing the film. He is saying that he has conflicting feelings and strong opinions on it, which isn’t neither black or white. And they have all the right. It’s the story of their people.
I still find going to a premiere and being remotely negative to be kind of weird. Of course he's entitled to his opinion, I just think it's rude. But all of that aside, I just do think his words are being deliberately twisted to make it sound like he's making some sort of indictment on the film overall. It was more just his musings on it. The bummer is the entire premiere became about him, and that isn't really fair to everyone else who worked on it. And the actors can't respond or anything.
There are people related to Mollie and Ernest who firmly believe there was real feeling between the couple. So for Cote to just say there's not love just abuse and be critical of portraying any genuine feeling felt a little out of bounds to me, personally. That's not his family's story. The movie doesn't take a remotely sympathetic or even empathetic view of Ernest. I just simply do not understand why portraying things as they actually happened is somehow disrespectful.
Overall though, I think he is of course more than entitled to discuss his feelings on the film as an Osage and someone who worked on it. Just wish the forum he picked was maybe a little better and there was time for a real discussion.
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6 minutes ago, ThomasNicole said:
Some of the takes here are just weird lol
Scorsese is a very prolific producer, just because you’re not interested in watch them doesn’t mean they don’t exist
And cinema doesn’t end on mainstream, actually most of innovations are made by other type of movies before being applied to mainstream.
Some of the ideas here about cinema shows a lack of interest that is kinda shocking for people interested in discuss it.
Still, Scorsese was a producer on Joker before Todd get it. And apparently, Scorsese have producing credits on Joker 2, maybe this way you’ll be happy.
Scorsese was going to direct it with Leo in the lead role at one point.
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3 minutes ago, Maggie said:
By starring in the same action movie with diminishing results? Call me when he takes a risk like DiCaprio did with KOTFM. That's what i call effort
A film DiCaprio couldn't even promote. Shocked he didn't try to subtly promote the movie by just being more visible. If anything, the opposite.
Wake me up when he ever releases a film that opens to single digits. Then we will talk. Especially when he can promote the movie.
I don't think any other actor would open this movie to anything close to what it got, and he's such a big star internationally the lack of international publicity tour I think is going to hurt it. Such a "what if" scenario.
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1 minute ago, ZattMurdock said:
There is a romanticized version of what the Osage endured already made. I feel like the Osage should not just be angry, like the tweet that @ThomasNicole posted said. They should be incredibly outspoken about what Scorsese got it wrong. It takes a lot of courage to literally be at the premiere of the film you worked on and criticize it so openly, I’ve been thinking about this interview since I watched this morning. Scorsese - or us - doesn’t need the validation or the endorsement of the Osage tribes, and I’m not sure how it would help anyone but Scorsese to have Osage people next to him at eventual awards. They should say what they think, while been respectful to Scorsese and bringing light to the plight of their people, at same time openly talk about what he got it right and wrong.
What did he get wrong? Also, Christopher Cote wasn't telling people not to see the movie. People are actually misinterpreting what he was even saying. Yes, it's not by Osage for Osage. It's by a white director and it speaks more to the general public. That doesn't mean he did anything "wrong" or disrespectful.
I think people are doing this man a disservice by acting like he attended a premiere on a film he worked hard on and then trashed it. That's not what happened. And if it was, he shouldn't have even gone to the premiere (but he didn't do that).
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9 minutes ago, MysteryMovieMogul said:
People claim Scorsese wants to save Cinema, but I never hear about him producing films, much less producing mainstream films which might actually, you know, save Cinema.
Question is, will Scorsese bring a member of the Osage Nation up on stage with him at any awards ceremonies?
You've never heard of his World Cinema Foundation?
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25 minutes ago, MysteryMovieMogul said:
I dunno, Joker did pretty well, so you can't say he's not a draw.
Joker is a massive comic book character. That's like pointing to Margot Robbie in Barbie and saying she must be a huge draw, in spite of the fact that nothing else has actually resonated at the box office much.
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3 minutes ago, Zakiyyah6 said:
Killers of the Flower Moon opening weekend sucks but it absolutely would have sucked more if Leo wasn't starring in it. You think Ryan Gosling would get it to 23M? Hell no he wouldn't have. I love Ryan but at best he only sales when doing films they had a heavy female demographic. The Notebook, La La Land and Barbie.
I guess i'm the only one on here who thinks north of 20 million for a movie with this length and subject matter (and set in the 1920s) is good
Whether or not it made sense for Apple is not for me to say. This is the movie they bought and there's no way their expectations could have been much higher. Maybe some of the tracking from some places got them excited at the last minute, but I feel like it did in line with its tracking...at least according to the Ankler. Right down the middle of tracking.
I would have LOVED to have seen the press tour with the cast. Such a bummer we will never get that. Biggest movie star in the world in this film and he's the invisible man. I get why, but it is so weird. I just don't think they could have delayed this movie anymore, and clearly they were comfortable with it opening during the strike if they felt it would clear 20.
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17 minutes ago, BestPicturePlutoNash said:
nope
She's very clearly a lead. And I think she will win.
Nothing about Poor Things excites me. Seems very weird.
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1 minute ago, Cmasterclay said:
I'm Mr. Doom and Gloom and even I'm not that pressed about this KOTFM number. It's a little disappointing in the context of Oppenheimer and the first day of presales. If you had told someone in June it would do over 20m, they probably would have creamed their pants. I'm much less worried about KOTFM making 75m instead of 100m than with the utter bomb failures of other adult movies that weren't ever gonna be huge hits but were gonna make at least a few dollars. Upcoming films American Fiction or Poor Things making 5m instead of 30m is what gets those kind of movies permanetly booted from theaters, and that's a much more dire situation than whether Marty and Leo will ever get a shot again.
This movie did nothing to change Marty or Leo's status...he's going to make whatever he wants next and same with Leo, who is still going to get to choose from every script. I actually do not think it'll be the wager for either of them though, I just don't see someone at marty's age directing a physically grueling type of movie. But maybe i'll be wrong.
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If anyone is interested, this is partial analysis from one of the best industry trade's The Ankler (subscription only, basically the new version of Deadline Hollywood )
"Killers of the Flower Moon: $23 Million ($44 Million global)
• Pretty good number considering only the director could actively promote it (although APPLE did put the 🔥 on the Marketing buys this week).
◦ 53% said they attended the pic due to Scorsese.
◦ 48% for the plot.
◦ 36% said Leo was a factor for them.
• In the dead center of tracking.
• A- Cinemascore
• 44% were under 30 years-old 👀They break down the audience more than this, but I found this pretty fascinating. The Scorsese number is nice
And they suggest this could get to 100 million domestic.
Whether or not it made sense for Apple is not for me to say. This is the movie they bought and there's no way their expectations could have been much higher. Maybe some of the tracking from some places got them excited at the last minute, but I feel like it did in line with its tracking...at least according to the Ankler. Right down the middle of tracking.
The Box Office Buzz, Tracking, and Pre-Sale Thread
in Box Office Discussion
Posted
It just doesn't look all that good. And I feel like its audience is super young, so I don't know how much previews really matter for it. Maybe I'm wrong.