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Avengers Endgame | Conclusion to The Infinity Saga | April 26, 2019 | Review Reactions on page 540 | Endgame Spoilers Allowed

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2 minutes ago, acetabulum said:

It dampened the mood to see Steve Rogers finally live the life he was meant to live after all the shit he's been through for the last 80 years?

Not if they had shown it to be in a separate timeline. His old self shown in the same timeline was confusing.

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So after a lot of thought and some article referencing, I think I’ve finally figured out how the time travel works, allowing old Steve to show up on the bench. I may be completely wrong about this, but it makes sense to me, so I’m sticking with it until something proves me otherwise.

 

It’ll be long so I’ll put it in spoilers. And I copy/pasted from a Google Doc, it won't let me unbold this for some reason.

 

Spoiler

 

First of all, time and a person’s individual experience of time are two different things. Both follow similar rules, moving linearly, but they are not the same. They both also follow: Everything in the past is concrete, and can NOT be changed; everything taking place in the present becomes a part of the past; and everything in the future is uncertain and, thus, can not be traveled to.

 

Think of time like a straight line, similar to the one the Ancient One made. The line builds as time moves forward, while everything that has already happened is a part of the line. Each person has their own timeline at well. When time traveling with Tony’s device through the Quantum Realm, users are allowed to go to any prior point on this line of the main reality. This time travel adds to each user’s own personal timeline, but does not change anything about the timeline of reality itself. The past becomes a sort of “playground” that the time traveler can play around in, but doing so never alters anything that takes place after. Time travelers can also take anything out of the past and bring it back to the present. While in the present, the item/person from the past becomes part of the main timeline for the duration of its time in the present.

 

As the Ancient One explains, the Infinity Stones are responsible for maintaining the flow of time. They keep the straight line as a straight line. While most things can be removed from the past with no consequence, Infinity Stones do have a consequence. The consequence isn’t changing the past, but creating an unstable, branch reality that runs parallel to the actual timeline from that point on. By putting the Stones back at exactly the right moment, thus making it so all six Stones remained on the straight line at all points, the branch reality gets cut off from its starting point, and becomes non-existent. With this logic, Cap never has to put each Stone in exactly the right spot. He just needs to put them at exactly the right moment. So it doesn’t matter that the Space Stone isn’t the Tesseract, etc. As long as the Stone is present at each moment, no branch reality exists and the past can never be changed anyway. This means that it doesn’t matter that Loki escaped with the Tesseract. With no branch reality, that only exists in the personal experience of time for Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Scott Lang, and Bruce Banner. I’m pretty sure Marvel has implied that the Loki show would be about young Loki.

 

So what about when Black Widow dies while “playing around” in the past? Does that mean she’s still dead in the present? Yes. While her going to the past doesn’t change the main timeline, it still adds to her personal timeline. With the Soul and Power Stones returned to 2014, time traveling to the moment she died is not an option. As far as the main timeline of reality is concerned, Natasha Romanoff’s life suddenly ended the moment she made the time jump. I’m willing to bet her solo movie will be a prequel.

 

So what about Cap’s marriage? When he brought all of the Infinity Stones back to their proper times, all branch realities had ceased. Therefore, his marriage to Peggy does not exist on an alternate timeline. However, since the past cannot be changed, it also does not exist in the main timeline. So where does it exist? Only on Steve Rogers’ personal timeline. As previously stated, going back in time adds to your own timeline, but does not alter any past. While living out his life with Peggy, he is still just “playing on the playground”. It’s a fake past for reality, but it’s HIS real present. For those that wonder how Steve could just sit around while he knows what bad things will happen, it doesn’t matter, because technically no one is actually being affected, and anything he does would not change anything. So how does he end up in the present? As previously stated, you can not travel to the future, because it hasn’t happened yet. By living his life in the fake past and never using the return trip, he eventually reaches a point where there is not yet a future to keep playing around in. Thus, he is re-merged with the actual timeline. By sitting on the bench in the fake past just before fake past Steve is sent back, he reappears on it in the present.

 

And finally, what happens to the flow of time now that Thanos has destroyed the real Stones? This one is pretty much just guess work, but I have two theories. First, the Law of Conservation of Mass states that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Thus, I believe that while the physical Infinity Stones are gone, the original essence that they started out as still exists in a non-physical form. Second, it created a multiverse of timelines, which could be explored in Phase 4.

 

So that’s my theory. I know it’s long, but hopefully it makes sense, and hopefully Marvel doesn’t do anything to contradict it, because then my nerd mind will be struggling to deal with this all over again.

 

 

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Marvel need to get Miguel Sapochnik to direct the next big battle. Endgame has nothing, absolutely nothing on Game of Thrones tonight

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11 minutes ago, nick64 said:

 

So after a lot of thought and some article referencing, I think I’ve finally figured out how the time travel works, allowing old Steve to show up on the bench. I may be completely wrong about this, but it makes sense to me, so I’m sticking with it until something proves me otherwise.

 

It’ll be long so I’ll put it in spoilers. And I copy/pasted from a Google Doc, it won't let me unbold this for some reason.

 

  Hide contents

 

First of all, time and a person’s individual experience of time are two different things. Both follow similar rules, moving linearly, but they are not the same. They both also follow: Everything in the past is concrete, and can NOT be changed; everything taking place in the present becomes a part of the past; and everything in the future is uncertain and, thus, can not be traveled to.

 

Think of time like a straight line, similar to the one the Ancient One made. The line builds as time moves forward, while everything that has already happened is a part of the line. Each person has their own timeline at well. When time traveling with Tony’s device through the Quantum Realm, users are allowed to go to any prior point on this line of the main reality. This time travel adds to each user’s own personal timeline, but does not change anything about the timeline of reality itself. The past becomes a sort of “playground” that the time traveler can play around in, but doing so never alters anything that takes place after. Time travelers can also take anything out of the past and bring it back to the present. While in the present, the item/person from the past becomes part of the main timeline for the duration of its time in the present.

 

As the Ancient One explains, the Infinity Stones are responsible for maintaining the flow of time. They keep the straight line as a straight line. While most things can be removed from the past with no consequence, Infinity Stones do have a consequence. The consequence isn’t changing the past, but creating an unstable, branch reality that runs parallel to the actual timeline from that point on. By putting the Stones back at exactly the right moment, thus making it so all six Stones remained on the straight line at all points, the branch reality gets cut off from its starting point, and becomes non-existent. With this logic, Cap never has to put each Stone in exactly the right spot. He just needs to put them at exactly the right moment. So it doesn’t matter that the Space Stone isn’t the Tesseract, etc. As long as the Stone is present at each moment, no branch reality exists and the past can never be changed anyway. This means that it doesn’t matter that Loki escaped with the Tesseract. With no branch reality, that only exists in the personal experience of time for Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Scott Lang, and Bruce Banner. I’m pretty sure Marvel has implied that the Loki show would be about young Loki.

 

So what about when Black Widow dies while “playing around” in the past? Does that mean she’s still dead in the present? Yes. While her going to the past doesn’t change the main timeline, it still adds to her personal timeline. With the Soul and Power Stones returned to 2014, time traveling to the moment she died is not an option. As far as the main timeline of reality is concerned, Natasha Romanoff’s life suddenly ended the moment she made the time jump. I’m willing to bet her solo movie will be a prequel.

 

So what about Cap’s marriage? When he brought all of the Infinity Stones back to their proper times, all branch realities had ceased. Therefore, his marriage to Peggy does not exist on an alternate timeline. However, since the past cannot be changed, it also does not exist in the main timeline. So where does it exist? Only on Steve Rogers’ personal timeline. As previously stated, going back in time adds to your own timeline, but does not alter any past. While living out his life with Peggy, he is still just “playing on the playground”. It’s a fake past for reality, but it’s HIS real present. For those that wonder how Steve could just sit around while he knows what bad things will happen, it doesn’t matter, because technically no one is actually being affected, and anything he does would not change anything. So how does he end up in the present? As previously stated, you can not travel to the future, because it hasn’t happened yet. By living his life in the fake past and never using the return trip, he eventually reaches a point where there is not yet a future to keep playing around in. Thus, he is re-merged with the actual timeline. By sitting on the bench in the fake past just before fake past Steve is sent back, he reappears on it in the present.

 

And finally, what happens to the flow of time now that Thanos has destroyed the real Stones? This one is pretty much just guess work, but I have two theories. First, the Law of Conservation of Mass states that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Thus, I believe that while the physical Infinity Stones are gone, the original essence that they started out as still exists in a non-physical form. Second, it created a multiverse of timelines, which could be explored in Phase 4.

 

So that’s my theory. I know it’s long, but hopefully it makes sense, and hopefully Marvel doesn’t do anything to contradict it, because then my nerd mind will be struggling to deal with this all over again.

 

 

I'm pretty sure they could travel to the future, but for this movie's purposes that wasn't an option. Although, returning to the present is a form of travelling to the future.

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1 hour ago, TigerPaw said:

Haha, for me.. it’s illogical, and you don’t have to correct me. :) but thanks for the time spent.

 

the character in your DP could have killed Thanos right? I mean she was flinched by the stone for a moment but she could have fought back after.

 

and there was nothing at stake; Thanos army wasn’t even killing or injuring anyone. No one seems hurt or injured at all... prevent “further” casualties? It’s like they were play fighting while fighting for Ironman to snap his fingers.

Well, in my earlier post I did raise the same doubt as yours, that Tony's sacrifice was unnecessary. I would say the biggest reason is certainly "reversed plot armor" that Tony has to die to complete the biggest emotional arc.

 

However, gradually, especially after second viewing, I do somewhat change my mind. There are some internal logics of this move by Tony:

 

1) It is obvious that the gauntlet was shown repeatedly to pass from one hand to another (BP, Spidey and CM). This sequence is not for comical fun. It is meant to show us that a short period in possession of the gauntlet does not provide with invincibility. All of them either had no time, no chance, no knowledge or no ability to use them. Thanos plucked Power Stone to use, but I doubt BP and Spidey can readily pluck do that. Also they are all novices with regard to the Stones. The Stones have infinite power, but in all past MCU movies we hardly see anyone that use even a tiny fraction of their power. Even Thanos with ALL 6 Stones in his custom made gauntlet in A:IW couldn't garness enough power to stop Thor.

 

But Thanos (even if he was from 2014) is still the one that know how to readily and maximally use the power of the Stones, because he had researched on them for years.

 

2 "there was nothing at stake" How can you be so sure "at all". Thanos without using the Stones punched back CM a couple of times. Wanda is inconsistent, at her full force she can overcome even Thanos, but as seen many times before (CA:CW, A;IW and Endgame) she is not so "durable" and lack fighting skills, even Black Orders and gun fire could throw her away. There are still thousands and thousands of outriders. As shown in A:IW, waves after waves of dozens of outriders can overwhelm BP, Cap, Veronica.

 

3) Tony got hold of the Stones, but Thanos is a short distance away. If Thanos can snatch the gauntlet from CM, and Tony knew how powerful CM is, how can he be so sure he can hold on to the Stones.

 

4) Finally the stake is just too high, his time the WHOLE universe is at risk (not half, because Thanos wanted a clean slate now). Even if Tony didn't care about trillions of living creatures, Pepper, his child, Spidey etc would all be gone. Even 0.000001% chance of this happening could not be accepted. And he knew that once Thonas repossess The Stones he wouldn't hesitate to do the snapping.

 

5) Strange hinted at him that they got only once chance, and Tony understood that doing the snapping is the absolutely 100% guaranteed chance of winning.

 

"The hardest choice requires the the strongest will". In the end, Tony matched Thanos' will and outwit him.

 

Let's celebrate his journey, and a part of which is the end.

 

 

Edited by justvision
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1 hour ago, TigerPaw said:

Yes I know what you mean. It’s not about being “silly”, I can see the intention or wha the filmmakers are trying to present here...

 

what i am saying is what I am seeing.. basically it seems as though nothing is at stake and no casualties from the avengers’ side plus Thanos already lost his stones to Stark... hence my comments.

 

They could have had one more scene; where Stark, after getting a hold of the stones, took a look around... and shows a scene where his comrades are getting beat-up, and then he realises he has to do it (as in snap).

I guess Tony taking a look around would satisfy some audience who think the "stake" is whether SH were having an upper hand against Thanos' army at that particular moment. No, the stake that you have been missing (thus thought "no stake") is the risk, even if it was 0.0000001%, of the whole universe "shredding into atoms". Not half of the universe in A:IW, now double down to the whole.

 

Thanos being so close a distance to him was enough reason for Tony not to do a survey. After Thanos recovered after his surprise of no Stones left in the gauntlet, Tony just have enough time to look at Thanos and said "I am Iron Man".

Edited by justvision
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52 minutes ago, justvision said:

I guess Tony taking a look around would satisfy some audience who think the "stake" is whether SH were having an upper hand against Thanos' army at that particular moment. No, the stake that you have been missing (thus thought "no stake") is the risk, even if it was 0.0000001%, of the whole universe "shredding into atoms". Not half of the universe in A:IW, now double down to the whole.

 

Thanos being so close a distance to him was enough reason for Tony not to do a survey. After Thanos recovered after his surprise of no Stones left in the gauntlet, Tony just have enough time to look at Thanos and said "I am Iron Man".

Also Strange clearly indicated this is the only one chance they have

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1 hour ago, GirafficPark said:

Marvel need to get Miguel Sapochnik to direct the next big battle. Endgame has nothing, absolutely nothing on Game of Thrones tonight

??? That dark, foggy, bad cameras and can’t barely make anything out episode?

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I saw the film for a second time, this time with a few coworkers and one guy with us says the female scene during the battle was hamfisted and too on the nose. 

 

My reply was how many scenes were there that were just all men and similarly hamfisted and did he have the same problem with them? He shut up after that. 

 

At some point scenes like that won't be extraordinary or even noticeable and we get them as regularly like anything else. 

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5 minutes ago, BoxOfficeZ said:

I saw the film for a second time, this time with a few coworkers and one guy with us says the female scene during the battle was hamfisted and too on the nose. 

 

My reply was how many scenes were there that were just all men and similarly hamfisted and did he have the same problem with them? He shut up after that. 

 

At some point scenes like that won't be extraordinary or even noticeable and we get them as regularly like anything else. 

Exactly people are so full of crap. 

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1. Infinity War

2. Iron Man

3. The Winter Soldier

...

10. Endgame

 

 

The opening weekend might be the biggest OW record of all time! The film broke record in just 2 days with previews. The last time such thing happened was in 1989 with Tim Burton's Batman!

 

Edited by Juby

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4 hours ago, GirafficPark said:

Marvel need to get Miguel Sapochnik to direct the next big battle. Endgame has nothing, absolutely nothing on Game of Thrones tonight

It's weird I've loved all GOT's battles, so maybe I was still on an Endgame high because this one began to bore me halfway, and the ending felt anti-climactic considering who they were up against.

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Just now, thedast said:

It's weird I've loved all GOT's battles, so maybe I was still on an Endgame high because this one began to bore me halfway, and the ending felt anti-climactic considering who they were up against.

End of the got fight was very deus-ex machine-y and felt like end of Avengers 1. After endgame that's just not satisfying

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ok, I know how Hulk knew BW cannot be ressurected. He saw her in soul realm just after his snap just like Thanos saw Gamora after his

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NY Times interview with Marcus & McFeely - it's a breakdown of the choices they made in the script, they don't get into everything they cover a lot

 

They wrote a master document in 2015 for the movies while they were filming Civil War

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/movies/avengers-endgame-explainer.html

 

 

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8/10 infinity war was better imo. Last hour of Endgame tho was pure comic book movie storyline ending perfection. First 2 hours were ehhhh to entertaining at times.

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48 minutes ago, JimiQ said:

End of the got fight was very deus-ex machine-y and felt like end of Avengers 1. After endgame that's just not satisfying

You're right, but let's not pretend like the Endgame fight didn't also end with all the badguys dying in one swoop. 

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