Avatar: The Way of Water | 16 DEC 2022 | Don't worry guys, critics like it

[cdsacken]

Nah I'm just calling bullcrap justification when I see it.

[Permanent Magnet]

3 minutes ago, NCsoft said:

Wow, the level of reading comprehension... simply astonishing.

 

Actually cdsacken is Right

 

Your point is clear, Avatar is original,but doesn't change the fact that the sequels are not.

 

And according to your definition (Jim gang not particularly you) Avatar sequels are now and I quote "corporate trash"

 

So yes we are on the same boat now

[cdsacken]

Just now, Permanent Magnet said:

Actually cdsacken is Right

 

Your point is clear, Avatar is original,but doesn't change the fact that the sequels are not.

 

And according to your definition (Jim gang not particularly you) Avatar sequels are now and I quote "corporate trash"

 

So yes we are on the same boat now

Yep. Hell if 2 didn't say that, #3/4/5 sure as hell did. Nothing wrong with that either. People like to think of things with a certain level of superiority. It doesn't exist.

[ilikegreen]

Cinema is officially dead.

 

I don't think there will ever be an original film to be the highest grossing film again. This marks the end of an era and quite frankly I don't see things getting better. Not that I was an Avatar fan, in fact one of my main critiques was that it plot felt kind of thin and it lacked proper character development. But REGARDLESS of how you feel about Avatar, this should be alarming for any true lover of film because the signs have been pointing to what has been gradually happening to this industry for a while now. I guess keeping the tradition that the highest grossing film through out history were always original film was the last beacon of hope I had for an industry that has throughout the years become increasingly corporate and devoid of soul. I think the shining light in all of this was that there had always been that belief that even if original big-budget films were a risk, there was always that chance that you might make the next ET or Titanic.

 

At a time when all the big-budget fare is superheroes, sequels, and franchises; at a time when mid-budget films are being financed less and less frequently with each passing year; at a time when certain genres of film are flat out on life support (i.e comedies and dramas)...it was refreshing to know that there was at least SOMETHING that motivated Hollywood to still search for that next fresh and original idea. And, yes, often times they failed but every once in a while they found magic and something like Star Wars would be born and take the world's imagination by storm. The public has spoken: Corporate products SELL.  Safe and familiar SELLS. Inoffensive family-friendly fare SELLS. Is it sad to see this happening? I'm not going to lie, for me, it absolutely is but at the end of the day things will unfold the way they unfold. Just like how the newspaper came and went, maybe this too was always the trajectory for film and I'm grateful I got a chance to experience some of that magic growing up. The tradition of the all-time record being held by an original film was the canary in the coal mine of a rapidly changing industry...and that canary is dead. 

[NCsoft]

26 minutes ago, Permanent Magnet said:

Actually cdsacken is Right

 

Your point is clear, Avatar is original,but doesn't change the fact that the sequels are not.

 

 And according to your definition (Jim gang not particularly you) Avatar sequels are now and I quote "corporate trash"

  

So yes we are on the same boat now

Nope, I didn't feel the need to reiterating my points but apparently I have to do that:

I was stressing two points:

Point 1: The fact that Avatar 2, 3, 4, 5 are coming does not change the fact that Avatar was original and groundbreaking, therefore, when Deep Wang using "the corporate sequels" are coming to sarcastically reply to the lament of Avatar losing the record, So I pointed this out. When we are talking about the exchange of record between Endgame and Avatar, Avatar sequels aren't a part of this discussion, except to dilute the narrative.

 

Point 2: With regards to Avatar sequels, the fact that they are going corporate and they are made to make money is not-disputed, however, the narrative that they therefore are the same thing as the mindless remakes, sequels and reboots out there that's currently dominating the scene is still incorrect. There's nothing wrong with making films to make money, Jim is the testament of that, do you see anyone go around to accuse LOTR 1, 2, 3, or SW EP4, 5, 6 mindless corporate cash grabs? Sequels is not a sin.

Avatar sequels will be significantly different from the current batch of uninspiring reboots, pointless sequels, endless live action remakes and spin-offs and sea of superhero films with materials pre-written half a century ago because of these distinguishable factors:

  a). It will be a massive legacy film franchise from this generation, we have about zero right now (except for maybe Frozen....)

  b). It will be a singular directorial vision from James Cameron.

  c). They will all push film technological advancement to a significant degree.

  d). there's no source materials, with Pandora being a fantastically well realized world, this is a sandbox where stories could go many places, makes it uniquely exciting. We are witnessing an original grand narrative being created.

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by NCsoft

[Tag 2]

On 6/8/2019 at 2:24 AM, NCsoft said:

I think these predictions are only hard to comprehend without giving Titanic and Avatar's runs a careful examination. 

 

-Predicting 4B+ for Avatar 2 would be predicting a run comparable to that of original Avatar in 2021.

-Predicting 5B+ for Avatar 2 would be predicting a run comparable to GOAT Titanic original run in 2021 (which is basically to say it'll become all time highest grossing film in every single market, save for maybe  India and Turkey).

 

- Predicting anything under 4B (like my 3.7B, for example), would be predicting a great run that falls short of Titanic and Avatar's original run, which under today's market situation (diverse tastes, rise in local films internationally, superhero domination) would be the most plausible scenario. Since Cameron is known to subvert expectations so I think predicting something other than "most plausible scenario" is not that much of a stretch either.

 

If you look back at Page 905,906 and 907, @IronJimbo  @VenomXXR and I was doing this mental exercise to extrapolate Avatar/Titanic's equivalence if they were released today and have a "comparable" run, other factors not considered. You can use the increase in average Top 10 worldwide Hollywood film gross each year from 1997 to 2018, you could use the increase in the 10th grossing film of each year over that same period, or use the global total market box office growth over 2009-2018. Pretty much all of these calculations put Avatar to an equivalent of 4B+ , and Titanic over 5B+ today. If we use the proportion increase over the former worldwide champion (Titanic 100% increase, and Avatar 50% increase), then use Avatar as the baseline box office champion, it yields a similar result. So in short, global inflation, and market expansion really does wonders.

Titanic beat turkey box office record in 1998,it has 27m＋ admission,more than turkey highest local film (which has 25m admission)

[NCsoft]

25 minutes ago, ilikegreen said:

 

At a time when all the big-budget fare is superheroes, sequels, and franchises; at a time when mid-budget films are being financed less and less frequently with each passing year; at a time when certain genres of film are flat out on life support (i.e comedies and dramas)...it was refreshing to know that there was at least SOMETHING that motivated Hollywood to still search for that next fresh and original idea. And, yes, often times they failed but every once in a while they found magic and something like Star Wars would be born and take the world's imagination by storm. The public has spoken: Corporate products SELL.  Safe and familiar SELLS. Inoffensive family-friendly fare SELLS. Is it sad to see this happening? I'm not going to lie, for me, it absolutely is but at the end of the day things will unfold the way they unfold. Just like how the newspaper came and went, maybe this too was always the trajectory for film and I'm grateful I got a chance to experience some of that magic growing up. The tradition of the all-time record being held by an original film was the canary in the coal mine of a rapidly changing industry...and that canary is dead. 

Well said!  I echo your sentiments!

 

I also want to add that things are often cyclical, there will come a time that the film industry will have to evolve pass endless reboots of 90s properties, and remakes of old animations, and revival of tired franchises, and Hollywood might be exciting again someday, when I'm overly pessimistic I often remind myself of that. Hey, in the mean time, at least TV is pretty exciting right now.

Edited July 21, 2019 by NCsoft

[Tag 2]

9 minutes ago, NCsoft said:

Well said!  I echo your sentiments!

 

I also want to add that things are often cyclical, there will come a time that the film industry will have to evolve pass endless reboots of 90s properties, and remakes of old animations, and revival of tired franchises, and Hollywood might be exciting again someday, when I'm overly pessimistic I often remind myself of that. Hey, in the mean time, at least TV is pretty exciting right now.

I will say India is a Only market that Titanic didn't beat the box office record，but Titanic still become the biggest Foreige film in India,which gross 60crore,overtake Jurassic Park record in india(which has 21crore.)

[IronJimbo]

1 hour ago, NCsoft said:

You're intentionally changing the narrative. It's never about being a "little indie movie", there is a reason that we're on a box office website not a annual award season blog. The indie movie industry is actually quite healthy now,  I'm not worried about that. it's the "blockbuster industry" that is the problem. 

 

Despite costing hundred of millions of dollars, Avatar was a singular directorial vision, a original film break out (one of the last of its kind, along with Inception), one of the greatest risks undertaken in films, and brought about massive technological film advancements from performance capture to 3D, and had one of the greatest global box office run of all time. Something can feel fresh and revolutionary without being "a little indie film". We're not lamenting the lost of small budget indies, we're lamenting the loss of groundbreaking original blockbusters that changes the outlook of films.

Despite costing hundred of millions, Avatar is not a pointless reboot of a 80s and 90s franchise, it is not a sequel or spin off and literally everyone dreaded (like Dark Phoenix, or MIB:I), it's not the 10th live action remake of a 90s animated classic, and it is not the 35th installment of the lastest superhero universe with source material dating all the way back to the 1950s. Avatar should not be punished because of its unprecedented success, it was unique because of that.

 

Avatar 2,3,4,5 turning "corporate" doesn't erase the fact that Avatar was this original groundbreaking film deservedly holding the all time crown, you can dispute the sequels being corporate but that has nothing to do with Avatar holding the crown. 

Regarding Avatar 2-5, I see it as Cameron trying to create his own legacy franchise akin to LOTR and Star Wars OT. Would I have preferred him sticking to original films? Probably. But at least Avatar sequels will still be a singular directorial vision, at least they're not based on ancient pre-existing source material and there is a well realized world where the story could literally go anywhere, at least they are a product of this era and not a nostalgia based cash-grab? Does this generation not deserve its own creation and it's own legacy franchise? And if the guy behind Avatar, Titanic, Terminator, True Lies, and The Abyss wants to do a couple of sequels, I say he's earned to right to do it.

 

 

you forgot to sign the post off with "sweetie"

[IronJimbo]

"by your logic the Avatar sequels are coperate trash"

 

Anyone who starts a sentence with by your logic usually doesn't have a clue what they're talking about and this thread is a golden example.

[Deep Wang]

29 minutes ago, NCsoft said:

Nope, I didn't feel the need to reiterating my points but apparently I have to do that:

I was stressing two points:

Point 1: The fact that Avatar 2, 3, 4, 5 are coming does not change the fact that Avatar was original and groundbreaking, therefore, when Deep Wang using "the corporate sequels" are coming to sarcastically reply to the lament of Avatar losing the record, So I pointed this out. When we are talking about the exchange of record between Endgame and Avatar, Avatar sequels aren't a part of this discussion, except to dilute the narrative.

 

Point 2: With regards to Avatar sequels, the fact that they are going corporate and they are made to make money is not-disputed, however, the narrative that they therefore are the same thing as the mindless remakes, sequels and reboots out there that's currently dominating the scene is still incorrect. There's nothing wrong with making films to make money, Jim is the testament of that, do you see anyone go around to accuse LOTR 1, 2, 3, or SW EP4, 5, 6 mindless corporate cash grabs? Sequels is not a sin.

Avatar sequels will be significantly different from the current batch of uninspiring reboots, pointless sequels, endless live action remakes and spin-offs and sea of superhero films with materials pre-written half a century ago because of these distinguishable factors:

  a). It will be a massive legacy film franchise from this generation, we have about zero right now (except for maybe Frozen....)

  b). It will be a singular directorial vision from James Cameron.

  c). They will all push film technological advancement to a significant degree.

  d). there's no source materials, with Pandora being a fantastically well realized world, this is a sandbox where stories could go many places, makes it uniquely exciting. We are witnessing an original grand narrative being created.

 

Nah, I'm saying Avatar was always corporate.

[Alexdube]

27 minutes ago, cdsacken said:

Yep. Hell if 2 didn't say that, #3/4/5 sure as hell did. Nothing wrong with that either. People like to think of things with a certain level of superiority. It doesn't exist.

This is not like many other franchises where they just keep pumping out movies because the previous one made money. The fact  that there is more than one sequel doesn't change anything. The scripts are all done, they are all part of the same story. I'm sure if Cameron could make one 15 hour movie he would, but that is not reasonable.

 

Plus Cameron has proven time and time again that he isn't about doing easy cash grabs. Just the fact he waited all those years to make them should tell you something. If it was a cash grab, he would've start making them right after the first one. Instead he built a submarine with a team of engineers to go deep diving in the Mariana Trench. I doubt he made 1 cent out of that. After the massive success of T2, the studio were obviously pulling for another one, but he wasn't interested because the guerilla filmmaking spirit of T2 was gone and it seemed like it was all about the $$. He is producing one now, but 30 years after T2 and when the franchise is at its lowest point. Then for Titanic, he literally gave back his paycheck to the studio and was essentially making the movie for free. When the studio wanted to cut down on the length of the movie (because they feared it would limit the showings thus limiting the profits), he told the studio: "You want to cut my movie? You're going to have to fire me! You want to fire me? You're going to have to kill me"

 

With a resume like that, I trust that Cameron isn't doing it just for the dollars, he is obviously a passion driven kind of guy.

 

[cdsacken]

5 minutes ago, Deep Wang said:

 

Nah, I'm saying Avatar was always corporate.

Definitely was. 500 million spent, partnerships with McDonald's, advertising everywhere. It was always corporate and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Permanent Magnet]

13 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

"by your logic the Avatar sequels are coperate trash"

 

Anyone who starts a sentence with by your logic usually doesn't have a clue what they're talking about and this thread is a golden example.

TBH, you have no idea what are you talking about Jimbo my friend.

[cdsacken]

2 minutes ago, Alexdube said:

This is not like many other franchises where they just keep pumping out movies because the previous one made money. The fact  that there is more than one sequel doesn't change anything. The scripts are all done, they are all part of the same story. I'm sure if Cameron could make one 15 hour movie he would, but that is not reasonable.

 

Plus Cameron has proven time and time again that he isn't about doing easy cash grabs. Just the fact he waited all those years to make them should tell you something. If it was a cash grab, he would've start making them right after the first one. Instead he built a submarine with a team of engineers to go deep diving in the Mariana Trench. I doubt he made 1 cent out of that. After the massive success of T2, the studio were obviously pulling for another one, but he wasn't interested because the guerilla filmmaking spirit of T2 was gone and it seemed like it was all about the $$. He is producing one now, but 30 years after T2 and when the franchise is at its lowest point. Then for Titanic, he literally gave back his paycheck to the studio and was essentially making the movie for free. When the studio wanted to cut down on the length of the movie (because they feared it would limit the showings thus limiting the profits), he told the studio: "You want to cut my movie? You're going to have to fire me! You want to fire me? You're going to have to kill me"

 

With a resume like that, I trust that Cameron isn't doing it just for the dollars, he is obviously a passion driven kind of guy.

 

So because he delays and holds movies hostage for 12 years it's not corporate? There is a theme park for Avatar. It will again partner with McDonald's and everywhere else. 7/11 and all over the place.

 

Again I'm all for the sequel and I'm all got it breaking 3B. Hell let's see 4 billion.

[Crainy]

5 hours ago, Hydrogen said:

It's actually a little bit sad to see Avatar deposed by something as corporate as AEG, it's like movie making is going the way of video games, where Fifa and COD just keep coming out each year and selling millions. 

 

The numbers were so insanely manipulated too I think it shows Disney really doesn't care about much, even Iger and Eisner have said  plainly that Disney is about making money and nothing else. 

 

Here's to another hundred live action remakes and Marvel movies eh. I wonder when they'll move onto the 1960s to start dregging up old cultural icons for us all to consume again 

I mean you are definitely right, AEG is the most corporate a movie can be. Marvel movies have always been the very definition of assembly line productions and just like with video games, people less knowledgable about the art form suck that stuff up. And thats something that can really be seen in most markets: Shallow, streamlined products that appeal to a very broad audience are generally speaking the most successful.

 

About AEG breaking Avatars record: I always thought it was a possibility that this could happen, though theres no doubt the way it ended up happening is definitely not the achievement that it could have been. Basically what Marvel did is they just kept Endgame in the cinemas until it rolled slowly passed Avatars record in a wheelchair. I know that Avatar was very long in the cinema too and had a re-release aswell, however, both of these things were due to the fact that there was a large continued interest in people wanting to see the movie, as such Avatars long run and re-release was a natural response to the demand of the market. This wasnt the case with Endgame, the movie was basically just unnaturally kept on life support to break an arbitrary record.

 

And thats the real thing about this: The unadjusted record is arbitrary. Adjusted for inflation, Avatar still eclipses Endgame by a long shot (and there are movies that still eclipse Avatar by quite abit). You can bring up exchange rates and stuff all you want, but as I said before that stuff is already accounted for in alot of "adjusted for inflation" measurements. Thats the reason why I dont think this particular record is noteworthy. Avatar completely eclipsed all other movies unadjusted when it came out and thats why it was a big achievement, because it said something about the success of the movie in the cultural environment it released in. Thats where I think the value of measuring an unadjusted record lies. And if Endgame eclipsed Avatar by a long shot, the same could have been said for that movie aswell. However, the way it just barely rolled past Avatar while on life-support isnt a big statement in Endgames favor. This way its just a very successful movie that passed an arbitrary number, but its not a statement about its cultural relevance.

[XXR vs XXR]

As someone who's looking forward to Avatar 2, I always come in here hoping to find a better discussion going on.

I'm always disappointed.

[NCsoft]

14 minutes ago, Deep Wang said:

 

Nah, I'm saying Avatar was always corporate.

Well, surprise surprise, It's not a Indie spirit award contender, that's for sure...

But you do see that the semantics surrounding "corporate" is not the true point of the dispute, right?

 

21 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

you forgot to sign the post off with "sweetie"

Many missed opportunity, Jimbo, I'm learning to be less serious, but it's a work in progress

[Deep Wang]

2 minutes ago, cdsacken said:

Definitely was. 500 million spent, partnerships with McDonald's, advertising everywhere. It was always corporate and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Well, I'd say that there isn't anything inherently wrong with it.  Remember, it took TWO corporations to make Titanic happen!  

[NCsoft]

45 minutes ago, Tag 2 said:

Titanic beat turkey box office record in 1998,it has 27m＋ admission,more than turkey highest local film (which has 25m admission)

Thanks, that's is very good to know.

I always wanted to know the specific markets where Titanic didn't get the all time record at the time, barring tiny markets that barely existed, seems like India is the only known one? it's funny how this only applies to Titanic, we will probably never talk about another film's box office run saying: "So, which two markets did the XX not crush the all time box office record again?" Testament of Titanic's prowess!