Can Any Universe Top Marvel?

[DAR]

What about our universe?

[Kalel009Shel]

Uh, Kal I'm not a trekkie...Sure Star Trek's universe is big. Marvel's too.

Of course my friend, but you know and I know ...ST is currently the biggest and most encompassing universe out there...

 

Disneys Marvel brand has many years to go, but they are on a path for an incredible world inded.

 

 

WB is also on track with Arrow , MOS, Smallville and now the Flash..  Arrow  is likely going to be in the JLA film. So thats going to be awesome blending of movies and WB television worlds. Love it

[grey ghost]

Will it ever be topped in both size and quality?

 

Nope. Never.

 

By 2020 Marvel will have over 18 movies with intersecting stories and characters while exploring wildly different genres. Plus every movie is fresh on RottenTomatoes.

 

It's an incredible feat and while other franchises might master a single aspect they will never master them all like Marvel.

 

Nuff said!

[Water Bottle]

But what about tonal diversity and the different macro and micro levels of storytelling in the MCU? Surely that has to account for something? Especially genre versatility.

 

I'm not sure why people think having more genres means the actual universe is bigger but I'll let it slide. I'm not saying the MCU is tiny itself. I'm not saying there's no tonal diversity and no macro or micro levels of storytelling in MCU. What I've been saying is that Star Trek has had that kind of genre versatility and it's had a lot more macro and micro levels of storytelling-including the tonal diversity. Not because Star Trek is better or because MCU sucks at it but because Star Trek simply has had a lot more time to do it. Star Trek has existed since the sixties. MCU is less than ten years old.

 

I mean if we were to calibrate the show's actual universe:

Iron Man sets up a new universe but at that point it's really small and close to our own world. (1 Universe Point)

The Incredible Hulk adds a new hero and the timeline between our world and Marvel Cinematic Universe start to diverge as Harlem is destroyed (1 universe Point)

Iron Man 2 is a sequel that kind-of expands the Iron Man franchise but not by a significant margin. Consider how you can largely ignore this movie. (2 Universe Points)

Thor is the first big universe build as we learn about the realms and get the series first big villain: Loki. (100 Universe Points)

Captain America: The First Avenger significantly expands the timeline and completely sets the MCU as separate from our world. It also sets up a major villainous organization (25 Universe Points)

Marvel's The Avengers brings this together and an evil alien army (8 points)

Iron Man 3 barely adds to the Marvel world. (1 Universe Point)

Thor: The Dark World does through a new race (15 Universe Points)

Captain America: The Winter Soldier brings Hydra into the modern day and brings down SHIELD. (10 Universe Points)

I imagine Guardians of the Galaxy significantly contribute to the MCU and it should be at least 100 points. We'll ignore Phase III as it's in the planning stages so who knows how much each movie will contribute to the universe.

 

Now consider Star Trek over a long period of time contributing points-some episodes would be just a few but other episodes you would get a lot of points. Same with the movies. If you combined the points (and yes you'll likely disagree with my point allotment) then Star Trek would be a lot higher.

 

I still think you are writing MCU off too easily especially when the universe building as just begun

 

EXACTLY. I'm not saying MCU can't ever match Star Trek-just that it really does have a long way to go. How can one claim the MCU is the largest universe when it's only just getting itself started? I think it'll take more than ten years-it should because otherwise MCU will be expanding way too fast-but one day it might get there.

 

You bring up future projects but you have no actual idea how much each will bring to the universe until it's actually made/released.

 

depth may not be the most appropriate term as I don't know how many individual Trek characters and their respective worlds/backstories/POVs are as fleshed out as the Marvel heroes.

 

So far, Star Trek has fleshed out more worlds, backstories, and even POVs. Although the number of POVs don't really impact a universe's side. Every single story, no matter how small, can have multiple POVs.

[grey ghost]

If we're allowed to include Star Trek TV shows then we should be allowed to include Marvel comics. 

 

Or are we just going to stick with the cinematic universe. 

[Water Bottle]

If we're allowed to include Star Trek TV shows then we should be allowed to include Marvel comics. 

 

Or are we just going to stick with the cinematic universe. 

 

Star Trek TV shows are cannon with the Star Trek films.

 

Marvel comics are not cannon in the MCU.

 

Agents of SHIELD is included as part of the MCU so it counts but since in 22 episodes, it really hasn't added as much to the universe as it should have....

Edited July 30, 2014 by Water Bottle

[kitik]

 DC got all those Batman films, The unbelievable Smallville,(10 yrs baby) , Green Arrow and the new Flash show debuts

ths year and all of those are going to be part of the Movie Universe.

 

 

Kal, stop making shit up. NONE of those is part of the DC Cinematic Universe.

 

The Batman films are NOT part of the DCCU.

Smallville is NOT part of the DCCU.

Green Arrow and Flash are NOT part of the DCCU.

 

Get a clue. Seriously.

 

So far there is one single movie that is part of the DCCU: Man Of Steel.

Green Lantern was supposed to start it, but they seem to have abandoned that movie pretty quickly.

[kitik]

Star Trek TV shows are cannon with the Star Trek films.

 

Marvel comics are not cannon in the MCU.

 

Agents of SHIELD is included as part of the MCU so it counts but since in 22 episodes, it really hasn't added as much to the universe as it should have....

 

 

Great point about Star Trek. It doesn't compare to and is nowhere near as deep and built up and varied as the Marvel 616 Universe, but of course that's not part of the MCU.

 

Similar to DC's current lack of a combined cinematic universe, Marvel has had a ton of tv shows over the years (probably more than Star Trek if you include Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends and all the other animated shows, which is a legit addition when compared with the illustrated 616 Universe). But they haven't been connected, unlike Star Trek. Bill Bixby and Lou Ferrigno were never part of any sort of universe that included an animated Iron Man or a live action X-Men. Both DC and Marvel have had some combined animated universes over the years, but many have been abandoned. Marvel currently has another one going right now, but it'll probably only last for another 2-3 years before they start from scratch again.

 

 

Now one difference between the MCU and Star Trek (and DC)  today is that over the next 365 days alone, the MCU will add 3 full-length movies and 43 full television episodes (22 Agents of Shield, 8 Agent Carter, and 13 Daredevil) to it's stature, while Star Trek (and the hypothetical DCCU) will add a total of absolutely zero. (And that's assuming we only get Daredevil over the next 365 days, and not an additional 13 episodes of Jessica Jones or Luke Cage too.)

 

 

Even at the absolute height of its popularity, Star Trek never came remotely close to 3 movies plus 43 tv episodes in a 365-day period. Give it a few years, and the MCU may surpass what it took 5 decades for Star Trek to accumulate.

[Water Bottle]

Now one difference between the MCU and Star Trek (and DC)  today is that over the next 365 days alone, the MCU will add 3 full-length movies and 43 full television episodes (22 Agents of Shield, 8 Agent Carter, and 13 Daredevil) to it's stature, while Star Trek (and the hypothetical DCCU) will add a total of absolutely zero. (And that's assuming we only get Daredevil over the next 365 days, and not an additional 13 episodes of Jessica Jones or Luke Cage too.)

 

Yes, the MCU will do that but unless the fundamental nature of SHIELD changes significantly and it's allowed to actually expand the universe rather than pick at the surface, then it's a lost opportunity for the MCU to truly expand itself. It has to be seen exactly how much each movie/show will actually contribute to the MCU universe.

 

 

Even at the absolute height of its popularity, Star Trek never came remotely close to 3 movies plus 43 tv episodes in a 365-day period. Give it a few years, and the MCU may surpass what it took 5 decades for Star Trek to accumulate.

 

3 movies? No. But at one time I believe it was delivering 66 episodes since I believe VOY began before TNG ended.

 

Anyways, you don't want the universe to surpass Star Trek that fast. It's better it takes it's time so that the GA doesn't lose interest.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Water Bottle

[kitik]

Yes, the MCU will do that but unless the fundamental nature of SHIELD changes significantly and it's allowed to actually expand the universe rather than pick at the surface, then it's a lost opportunity for the MCU to truly expand itself.

 

Agents Of Shield was always said to be a "man on the street" view of the MCU. It's not supposed to be Dr Strange or GOTG.

 

That said, did you watch the season finale? That was a pretty big universe-expanding episode. (As were some of the ones that built up to that moment.)

 

 

It has to be seen exactly how much each movie/show will actually contribute to the MCU universe.

 

 

 

Sure, of course, but the same thing could be said about many Star Trek episodes. Does Quark trying to smuggle something past Odo really expand the universe? Does random alien planet #291 that we will never see or hear from again really expand the universe?

 

 

 

3 movies? No. But at one time I believe it was delivering 66 episodes since I believe VOY began before TNG ended.

 

 

When DS9 and VOY were running concurrently, they were each giving us 26 episodes a year, for a total of 52.

 

We only got 3 movies over that entire 4 or 5 year period though.

 

Not sure exactly how to compare movies to tv episodes. They're certainly worth more than just 2 or 3 episodes, but they're probably not worth a full season. (I'd certainly take a full season of Sarah Connor Chronicles over Terminator Salvation. Or a full season of DS9 over Insurrection.)

 

 

But yeah, without a doubt Star Trek is a good answer to the question posed in the title of this thread. The non-existant DC Cinematic Universe is not.

 

Perhaps an interesting question would be: when would Marvel catch Star Trek? It's tough to call, because you really can't compare movies to tv episodes. (Though sadly a few ST movies felt like little more than glorified tv episodes. Or in somes cases, double-length episodes like All Good Things were actually better than movies like Generations.)

 

 

With any luck, the long hoped for rumors about Star Trek returning to tv will finally come to fruition in a few years, and Star Trek will finally start adding to its universe on that front again. After all, tv shows are "in" again. Everyone's doing it, with both critical and popular success, and it seems odd that ST hasn't joined in on the new golden age of tv shows.

[Water Bottle]

Agents Of Shield was always said to be a "man on the street" view of the MCU. It's not supposed to be Dr Strange or GOTG.

 

That said, did you watch the season finale? That was a pretty big universe-expanding episode. (As were some of the ones that built up to that moment.)

 

I've watched every episode.

 

Sure, of course, but the same thing could be said about many Star Trek episodes. Does Quark trying to smuggle something past Odo really expand the universe? Does random alien planet #291 that we will never see or hear from again really expand the universe?

 

I've never said every Star Trek episode builds up the universe equally but to answer the first question, it can depending on what he's smuggling and why and to answer the second question, well yes. Adding a new planet with it's own society/problems/people is indeed adding to the universe.

 

Perhaps an interesting question would be: when would Marvel catch Star Trek? It's tough to call, because you really can't compare movies to tv episodes. (Though sadly a few ST movies felt like little more than glorified tv episodes. Or in somes cases, double-length episodes like All Good Things were actually better than movies like Generations.)

 

If it's smart, it will take it's time to catch up. As I said, expand too fast and you'll lose the ability for the GA to keep up. The larger the universe, the more difficult it is for non-fans.

 

With any luck, the long hoped for rumors about Star Trek returning to tv will finally come to fruition in a few years, and Star Trek will finally start adding to its universe on that front again. After all, tv shows are "in" again. Everyone's doing it, with both critical and popular success, and it seems odd that ST hasn't joined in on the new golden age of tv shows.

 

I imagine they're planning some kind of series. I sure hope so-the real question is where do you put a new Star Trek show? Personally, I think it should go to Sy-fy or some other basic cable network.

[Asyulus]

Never

[HeyItsMoses]

So, it looks like the Marvel Universe is going to have a total of 21 movies?

 

I wonder if they're going to keep going with the franchises after Avengers 3. Since they will just be introducing Doc Strange, Ant-Man, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Inhumans. Could easily have a trilogy for each franchise, and even complete Guardians with a third movie also.

 

All in all, this Universe is massive, with as many films as the James Bond movies, but in a linear fashion, with one giant story that's intertwined. 

 

Marvel is a fuckin genius, and it will be crazy if they do a Phase 4, 5, 6, and have another Avengers Trilogy. I mean, who wouldn't want to see X-Men, Fantastic Four, and Spiderman return to Marvel and join the Avengers or be part of the Universe? It'll be amazing. 

[peludo]

So, it looks like the Marvel Universe is going to have a total of 21 movies?

 

I wonder if they're going to keep going with the franchises after Avengers 3. Since they will just be introducing Doc Strange, Ant-Man, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Inhumans. Could easily have a trilogy for each franchise, and even complete Guardians with a third movie also.

 

All in all, this Universe is massive, with as many films as the James Bond movies, but in a linear fashion, with one giant story that's intertwined. 

 

Marvel is a fuckin genius, and it will be crazy if they do a Phase 4, 5, 6, and have another Avengers Trilogy. I mean, who wouldn't want to see X-Men, Fantastic Four, and Spiderman return to Marvel and join the Avengers or be part of the Universe? It'll be amazing. 

IMO, there will be Marvel movies until people want. Each Avengers 3 movie are locked to make absurd amounts of money. I do not think they will stop there...

[Avatree]

The MCU will eventually die, most likely long before their current plans finish (2029, was it?). Given how frequent these universes are becoming, it will no doubt be surpassed by something else one day - but that might not be for 20 years or so.

[Ruthie]

These things are cyclical.  Eventually something else will come along that hits people's fancy and the MCU will no longer be the "it" thing.  I have no doubt that the MCU will continue for the next 10-20 years, it just won't be on top of the heap the entire time.

[grey ghost]

But will there ever be another cinematic universe with the sheer scope, ambition and marketability as MCU.

I very much doubt it.

3 movies per year with the same continuity all grossing over 500 m WW.

Good luck beating that.

[druv10]

The MCU will eventually die, most likely long before their current plans finish (2029, was it?). Given how frequent these universes are becoming, it will no doubt be surpassed by something else one day - but that might not be for 20 years or so.

 

I don't see death happening to MCU or Marvel. It's too big with Disney backing. It'll slowdown at some point but death is near impossible. 

[Asyulus]

Unless Phase Four is not happening. Marvel will lose some of its luster at being bigggest.

[terrestrial]

The MCU will eventually die, most likely long before their current plans finish (2029, was it?). Given how frequent these universes are becoming, it will no doubt be surpassed by something else one day - but that might not be for 20 years or so.

 

I am pretty sure every regular reader here knows already about your doubts about (or unhappyness of) the MCU. I guess such IMHO overly pessimistic prognosis is a reason why some might not take those kind of posts too seriously

 

Why should it 'die' till 2028 (I think the plan goes only till then, haven't checked the date)?

 

MCU movies are done - for their kind of movies - for a mostly reasonable budget. (Excluding Downey's salary, but I highly doubt they'll make that mistake again with a newly involved actor)

At the time of production they were even a lot cheaper than other big-event/big-budget movies

They get more and more produced in regions with very good tax laws and very high qualified and still not expensive production people

They use a lot of experienced actors at the beginning of their 'well-known' status, usually with multi-movie contracts

They can reuse more and more of already done background/production work (and seem to have a good hold on tons of materials, as in plan to do so)

They mix genres for each movie in another way = fans for different movies, characters,... get interested for different reasons, not all like all movies and that is good for long-lasting interest IMHO.

They manage (probably partly based on the actors ages....) to interest growingly all ages, all genders (see GotG got the oldest of both genders average age and also the highest female viewers of CBMs)

They manage to get more and more people of non-US countries interested (partly via including actors of other region, filming or story locations and so on)

They introduce more and more teams, characters, ability reasons... not all of those typical for CBMs

For now they even manage to sell lots of DVDs/Blu-Rays... of their MCU movies, in a time where the salesnumbers are declining they are selling... really a lot. Including e.g. Thor 2. Those MCU sales numbers are to me especially interesting, as e.g. amazon tried to blackmail them with blocking pre-order... to get higher percentages.

They seem also to earn a lot of money via franchise articles,....

I am not sure how far you are informed about those details, but that kind of income is partly more than the movies did ww at the BO

 

So even if the worldwide BO gets lower, they have a lot of room to compensate that (I did not list all reasons for that), they can also change a bit the movie's moods, make it more or less like a CBM.... get their characters more or less involvement into the more or less tightly knitted MCU basic story.

 

If nothing majorly changes / happens, I see no reason for the MCU 'dying', only getting smaller. What I also think might be a good thing, the expectations of some involved & fans seem to be a bit... too big.

 

The one concern I have is, what will happen to Marvel Studios (and as such also the MCU), when Feige's contract ends and for some reasons he ends his involvement.

Not that I think he - or anyone elso - is not replaceable, but who will take over can have a really big impact.