THE SUICIDE SQUAD | August 6 2021 | James Gunn writing and directing

[Krissykins]

1 hour ago, Pinacolada said:

The first Suicide Squad??? No way in fuck. Will Smith and the Joker were the two biggest draws by a mile

Yet Harley Quinn was the one who hit the zeitgeist. Probably the most popular Halloween costume of that year lol. 

[Pinacolada]

6 hours ago, Krissykins said:

Yet Harley Quinn was the one who hit the zeitgeist. Probably the most popular Halloween costume of that year lol. 

This movie and Birds of Prey especially would have done much better if this were the case.

 

I agree that Robbie as that character WAS one of the few things that people liked about the first movie. But she wasn't one of the main draws that got people to see it. That reason absolutely belongs to Will Smith and the Joker (along with some of the best marketing of all time and a great premise that hadn't been done in this Comic Book movie setting)

[poweranimals]

14 hours ago, Pinacolada said:

This movie and Birds of Prey especially would have done much better if this were the case.

That probably would've been the case if the first movie wasn't so bad. And BOP reception certainly didn't help matters.

Edited September 30, 2021 by poweranimals

[Chicago]

Will Smith and Joker is undoubtably what sold Suicide Squad but Harley left by far the greatest impression. People forget Will Smith was the biggest box office draw not too long ago. No way in hell Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn is what made it gross 130m on OW, it's more likely to be the guy who single handedly led I Am Legend to December's record breaking opening, or the character that just had a movie gross over 1b in a 2D format. Though after the film it's Harley Quinn who's become more iconic than Deadshot

[Barnack]

I think the conversation is potentially a bit too "binary", the genre, the trailers, the high concept were a large part of that OW, of the individual member of the squad, the Quinn character was the biggest draw (only one ?) imo, Smith was the biggest actor draw and joker is always a big magnet.

 

Quinn was more a big deal than Deadshot before the movie release, during the movie promo and after the movie imo.

 

 

[Chicago]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:27 AM, Ipickthiswhiterose said:

 

The closest isn't quite a Superhero movie, just a comic book movie, but I think is quite illuminating.....It's Scott Pilgrim V The World. 

 

For all Brie Larson got so much flack for pointing this out, there is once in a while a movie that narrows the parameters of who its aimed at massively without online culture particularly noticing. Scott Pilgrim did that, and I think TSS does it as well: "The angels are splooging on us", "Beach full of penises" and a talking shark saying "hand" in a childlike goofy voice are all in the trailer and I just don't think they play to a general audience the way they play to online culture. They don't even read as 'edgy' in a Deadpool or Venom way, they just read - without context - as an easily dismissible "dumb" or "childish".

 

But more than anything else I just think that like The Wolfman, Solo, Mortal Engines, Dredd, Birds of Prey, John Carter the ultimate reason for the debacle is just a fundamental failure to judge the actual appeal of the premise of the film.

 

The Suicide Squad has, it seems, absolutely no inherent pull as a property. The first film was tethered to the Joker, one of the biggest box office juggernauts in film history. Plus Will Smith.

 

Even though it has been mentioned multiple times in tandem with other reasons, I think the Joker factor has still been hugely underestimated in what's happened here.

 

 

There is nothing we can compare this to. Scott Pilgrim was given a chance, it was raved about by a niche few the moment it came out and they have echo'd that praise for years but it's never managed to become popular amongst the GA even after its release.

 

This film had a steep hill to climb from the start, then was forced to open in a Covid market during a high case rate topped off by same day online streaming. Who was going to risk getting Covid watching a sequel to a film that left everyone bitterly disappointed? 

 

You also seem to be using what you didn't like about the film as the reason to its failure when in heinsight this was doomed from the start. The complaints you had sound very similar to what people were saying about GOTG and Deadpool before they surprised everyone. This film shares a similar tone and it's actually managed to have solid legs in the markets it was given a chance in so quality clearly wasn't an issue here.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Chicago

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

1 hour ago, Chicago said:

 

You also seem to be using what you didn't like about the film as the reason to its failure when in heinsight this was doomed from the start. The complaints you had sound very similar to what people were saying about GOTG and Deadpool before they surprised everyone. This film shares a similar tone and it's actually managed to have solid legs in the markets it was given a chance in so quality clearly wasn't an issue here.

 

 

 

I like the film. And my only major criticism would be the Harley Quinn subplot, not the tone.

 

I am specifically talking about advertising. The jokes I am referring to were perfectly tonal within the film. They were all amusing within the film. My argument is that they didn't work to be taken outside of the film to market it. The tones of Deadpool and TSS are similar. The trailers are not.

 

The first two lines of the Deadpool Red Band trailer are: "I love you Wade Wilson, we can fight this." followed by "You're right. The cancer's only in my liver, lungs, prostate and brain." 

 

The first two lines of the Suicide Squad red band trailer are: "You're going to risk the entire mission for a mental defective disguised as a court jester" followed by "this coming from a guy that's wearing a toilet seat on his head".

 

Chalk and cheese.

 

The Deadpool trailer started with the emotional hook of a loving husband getting cancer and clearly established the chracter. Then it showed a conventional origin story before only then giving something closer to the actual tone of the movie, and only gave a splurge of the really risqué stuff in the last 30 seconds. It only briefly showed its 'silly' CGI character.

 

TSS trailer had no emotional hook, made the whole thing seem exclusively like an action movie (as opposed to action movie plus love story plus character piece), had risqué material throughout and flamboyantly showed off its 'silly' CGI characters.

 

If the Deadpool trailer had been made like TSS one it would have included "Cock shot", "Happy International Women's Day" and Baby legs in the first trailer and shown loads of Colossus. All of which were fun in the movie, but which would have been dumb to use in advertising and would have put general audiences off the same way I claim the lines from TSS put the general audiences off. In isolation what works and is tonal in the film would have seemed childish and "goofy" as well. In the Deadpool trailer - and indeed the actual movie - that style is tampered with a well-established love story, a relatable family tragedy and a strong focus on character.  

 

GOTG had the MCU Brand and was PG. It isn't comparable. However I would note that the both GOTG trailers focused primarily on extensively introducing us one by one to all the characters and indicating why we should care about them. Oh and the film itself starts with the main character's mother tragically dying and us seeing the main character's reaction to that.

 

The advertising wasn't the single biggest issue with TSS: Covid (although movies in all directions being more successful really does make it difficult to put the RELATIVE failure at the feet of Covid even if the actual total was), the absence of the Joker (who was plastered all over advertising of the first film), the bad first film, the relative indifference towards the IP when the Joker was removed and probably the absence of Will Smith were bigger. But the marketing was horrible and I suspect actively put off the general public and in general the movie didn't make the audience care about it's characters enough outside of those who already wanted to be invested in them: ie the film was more niche than intended. 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Ipickthiswhiterose

[WittyUsername]

Don’t tell me we’re forgetting about the HBO Max day and date factor?

[Perfundle]

2 hours ago, Ipickthiswhiterose said:

I am specifically talking about advertising. The jokes I am referring to were perfectly tonal within the film. They were all amusing within the film. My argument is that they didn't work to be taken outside of the film to market it. The tones of Deadpool and TSS are similar. The trailers are not.

 

The first two lines of the Deadpool Red Band trailer are: "I love you Wade Wilson, we can fight this." followed by "You're right. The cancer's only in my liver, lungs, prostate and brain." 

 

The first two lines of the Suicide Squad red band trailer are: "You're going to risk the entire mission for a mental defective disguised as a court jester" followed by "this coming from a guy that's wearing a toilet seat on his head".

 

Chalk and cheese.

 

The Deadpool trailer started with the emotional hook of a loving husband getting cancer and clearly established the chracter. Then it showed a conventional origin story before only then giving something closer to the actual tone of the movie, and only gave a splurge of the really risqué stuff in the last 30 seconds. It only briefly showed its 'silly' CGI character.

 

TSS trailer had no emotional hook, made the whole thing seem exclusively like an action movie (as opposed to action movie plus love story plus character piece), had risqué material throughout and flamboyantly showed off its 'silly' CGI characters.

 

 

I don't think it's fair to compare an origin story with a soft sequel. A better comparison would be the Deadpool 2 trailer. The first few lines of that are: "Start the fucking car!" "Whoo, I shit my pants." "Actually that might have been me."

 

In many ways, Deadpool 2 and The Suicide Squad are quite similar. Both have a misleading trailer which the cold open completely upends (killing off Vanessa and killing off team A). Both put together a team that is immediately nearly wiped out. Both have unclear antagonists, unlike most superhero movies. Both have a character being graphically ripped in half.

 

Of course, Deadpool was well-received and Suicide Squad was not, and so it could be that no marketing could have salvaged The Suicide Squad. And speaking of the first movie, the Bohemian Rhapsody trailer for Suicide Squad had no emotional hook either, and also made the whole thing seem exclusively like an action movie, and it didn't put off audiences from seeing it.

[Napoleon]

The first Suicide Squad movie was part of a continuing storyline audiences cared about.

[Chicago]

2 hours ago, Ipickthiswhiterose said:

 

I like the film. And my only major criticism would be the Harley Quinn subplot, not the tone.

 

I am specifically talking about advertising. The jokes I am referring to were perfectly tonal within the film. They were all amusing within the film. My argument is that they didn't work to be taken outside of the film to market it. The tones of Deadpool and TSS are similar. The trailers are not.

 

The first two lines of the Deadpool Red Band trailer are: "I love you Wade Wilson, we can fight this." followed by "You're right. The cancer's only in my liver, lungs, prostate and brain." 

 

The first two lines of the Suicide Squad red band trailer are: "You're going to risk the entire mission for a mental defective disguised as a court jester" followed by "this coming from a guy that's wearing a toilet seat on his head".

 

Chalk and cheese.

 

The Deadpool trailer started with the emotional hook of a loving husband getting cancer and clearly established the chracter. Then it showed a conventional origin story before only then giving something closer to the actual tone of the movie, and only gave a splurge of the really risqué stuff in the last 30 seconds. It only briefly showed its 'silly' CGI character.

 

TSS trailer had no emotional hook, made the whole thing seem exclusively like an action movie (as opposed to action movie plus love story plus character piece), had risqué material throughout and flamboyantly showed off its 'silly' CGI characters.

 

If the Deadpool trailer had been made like TSS one it would have included "Cock shot", "Happy International Women's Day" and Baby legs in the first trailer and shown loads of Colossus. All of which were fun in the movie, but which would have been dumb to use in advertising and would have put general audiences off the same way I claim the lines from TSS put the general audiences off. In isolation what works and is tonal in the film would have seemed childish and "goofy" as well. In the Deadpool trailer - and indeed the actual movie - that style is tampered with a well-established love story, a relatable family tragedy and a strong focus on character.  

 

GOTG had the MCU Brand and was PG. It isn't comparable. However I would note that the both GOTG trailers focused primarily on extensively introducing us one by one to all the characters and indicating why we should care about them. Oh and the film itself starts with the main character's mother tragically dying and us seeing the main character's reaction to that.

 

The advertising wasn't the single biggest issue with TSS: Covid (although movies in all directions being more successful really does make it difficult to put the RELATIVE failure at the feet of Covid even if the actual total was), the absence of the Joker (who was plastered all over advertising of the first film), the bad first film, the relative indifference towards the IP when the Joker was removed and probably the absence of Will Smith were bigger. But the marketing was horrible and I suspect actively put off the general public and in general the movie didn't make the audience care about it's characters enough outside of those who already wanted to be invested in them: ie the film was more niche than intended. 

 

I'm pretty sure one of the final lines in the Deadpool trailer was "I'm touching myself tonight" so I don't buy that the dialogue in the trailer put people off. If a field full of dicks is childish then so is that. GOTG was a good example of the early concerns at how sellable the product would be to audiences. Very few believed a talking racoon and a tree for a sidekick would top every other superhero movie that year and become MCU's highest grossing origin movie aside from Avengers. You talk about the films emotional hook but that wasn't really highlighted in the marketing, instead it came more across as a cocky fun space Western with the tagline reading 'You're Welcome'

 

Even Deadpool got it's greenlight because of its childish and violent leaked action scene topped with Ryan Reynold's sarcasm. That video is what drove the demand to make it in the first place, not to mention the market was lacking in R rated superhero movies at the time. I'm not going to deny that it got people emotionally interested in its trailer but what really sold it was the inventiveness of the marketing campaign. Treating it like romantic dinner date with small social media ads was a brilliant move for this. 

 

Theres not a trailer in the world TSS could have made to really make much of an impact on it's gross. If SS never existed and the same trailer was released pre pandemic, it wouldn't be a flop

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

9 hours ago, Chicago said:

 If SS never existed and the same trailer was released pre pandemic, it wouldn't be a flop

 

If SS never existed and the same trailer was released pre pandemic it still would have major IP issues. It still wouldn't have had the Joker in it and it still wouldn't have had a star of the level of Will Smith in it. It would still be folly to drop that size of budget on it, given those factors.

 

The first SS squad trailer was an action film trailer: but it also advertised a dark romance, was supposedly part of a continuing story and most of all...had the most reliable box office character in cinema history in it. 

 

Deadpool 2 was a continuing story to a previously loved film as indicated...therefore not comparable to the Suicide Squad in terms of the job marketing had. The hard marketing job was Deadpool 1, which had the layered, reach-out-to-multiple-demos approach which heavily emphasised romance and a conventional origin story in its marketing alongside the risqué stuff - which was kept out of the first half of even the red band trailer.

 

Again, in terms of marketing the trailers for GOTG isolated each character, voiceovered who they were and indicated why we should care about them. They were clearly concerned about the familiarity factor and directly addressed that potential weakness in those trailers. Then the film itself carefully curated the story of Quill with an extremely high stakes emotional hook at the start to make us care about the main character, and it received good (by MCU standard) legs.

 

Thing is I don't think we're far off here: We all agree that following on from SS and bereft of the factors that caused SS to be a BO success despite being terrible, TSS never really had a chance whatever the quality of the movie was going to be and it was a plain bad idea to throw that level of budget at it. Probably not before COVID and certainly not alongside pandemic and co-release. 

 

But I would still argue that with all that, the film needed to take more cues from that first Deadpool and provide the veneer of a wider appeal within the film, and provide more hooks in its marketing and, to a lesser extent, within the film itself. And that what it did instead was close its appeal as little as possible to a large but still niche audience. I find Idris Elba shout-arguing with his daughter more enjoyable than the Peter-Mom scene in Guardians, but in terms of motivating forces the latter is doing a lot more to create a character who stays in the memory for a GA member than the former. Indeed reading back the sentence it says a lot that I automatically wrote the actor name for the former and the character name for the latter.

[belblazer]

 

Gunn confirmed that he is working on another project and it won't be revealed at Fandome.

 

SS3? Gotham City Sirens? King Shark series? Plastic Man? hmmm

[Krissykins]

2 hours ago, belblazer said:

 

Gunn confirmed that he is working on another project and it won't be revealed at Fandome.

 

SS3? Gotham City Sirens? King Shark series? Plastic Man? hmmm

I think he already completely debunked Gotham City Sirens, he said he’s never even thought about it for a second. 

[belblazer]

 

 

yup WB is considering the movie for the award season. Hopefully at least a nom at the Oscars.

[Spidey Freak]

On 9/29/2021 at 8:39 PM, Pinacolada said:

This movie and Birds of Prey especially would have done much better if this were the case.

 

Her fanbase is pretty much like Venom's fanbase where they are super big with the under 18 crowd. To put her in R-rated films was just limiting audiences. Hardy and co. shrewdly kept the PG-13 rating, something Robbie and co. should have done for at least BOP.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 11:28 AM, Krissykins said:

I think he already completely debunked Gotham City Sirens, he said he’s never even thought about it for a second. 

 

Yeah, I don't see a second Catwoman turning up to compete with Zoe. I thought they were considering bringing back Pfeiffer with Keaton but Quantum Mania might keep her busy.

 

It might just be a Harley & Ivy duo film though, considering Margot's recent comments about Poison Ivy. BOP and TSS performances have probably made WB wary of greenlighting a Harley film so soon though. If there's a fourth film with her, it better be PG-13. 

[belblazer]

2 noms at the Satellite Awards.

 

-Best Visual Effects

-Special Achievement Award: Stunt Performance (won)

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by belblazer

[belblazer]

 

[dudalb]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:38 PM, Napoleon said:

The first Suicide Squad movie was part of a continuing storyline audiences cared about.

Yeah, everybody loved the Snyderverse so much.........

[WittyUsername]

11 minutes ago, dudalb said:

Yeah, everybody loved the Snyderverse so much.........

Why are you replying to something from a quarter of a year ago?