ChipDerby Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, iJackSparrow said: Oh my God. Why. Did I? Because I'm fairly certain I just said that he had a clear motivation in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMan7 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, ChipMunky said: I never said Lex's plan made sense. Well now we're reaching somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Water Bottle Posted May 9, 2017 Community Manager Share Posted May 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, iJackSparrow said: It's not just to make money. It's because he wants to be seen as Earth's Superman. The human champion. He envies Superman, and that's why the COMIC BOOK Lex does what he does. Snyder's Lex didn't have a motivation. He just did stuff because evil and put Batman vs. Superman because and created Doomsday because. Hence why there isn't a motivation going. I dont read the comics. I am going by Donner's Superman movies and the cartoons. 10 minutes ago, ChipMunky said: Zemo makes no sense. What does breaking up the Avenger's accomplish, for him? Nothing. He gets his revenge. Its his way of getting justice for his family. 5 minutes ago, iJackSparrow said: Did he? Or that's what he wanted Panther to think? Is his plan over? I think it isn't. It's heavily hinted it isn't. No I think he did want to kill himself. I really hope that was his intention at least. Its part of the reason the ending of CW is great: that scene with Panther and him is fantastic and has lots of emotional power. If it is just a ploy for a cheap plot twist, that is a mistake on Marvel's plot. Also makes him dumb. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipDerby Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Water Bottle said: I dont read the comics. I am going by Donner's Superman movies and the cartoons. He gets his revenge. Its his way of getting justice for his family. No I think he did want to kill himself. I really hope that was his intention at least. Its part of the reason the ending of CW is great: that scene with Panther and him is fantastic and has lots of emotional power. If it is just a ploy for a cheap plot twist, that is a mistake on Marvel's plot. Also makes him dumb. But how is that revenge? I don't understand what exactly it accomplishes. Breaking them up makes him feel better about his family being dead? That's very thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Craig Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 58 minutes ago, ChipMunky said: Nobody is being huffy but you. I'm trying to have a discussion. What I did was point out the circular logic in the discussion about you saying "it's not that hard" to follow the motivation. That doesn't = huffy, your interpretations are very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Water Bottle Posted May 9, 2017 Community Manager Share Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, ChipMunky said: But how is that revenge? I don't understand what exactly it accomplishes. Breaking them up makes him feel better about his family being dead? That's very thin. It wasnt about feeling better but breaking up a team he blamed. Like he said, he knew he couldnt fight them physically. The best he could do was break them up and so he did what he could. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZattMurdock Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, ChipMunky said: lol what? That's a HUGE reach. So now he wanted Panther to think he's suicidal and wanted to be captured? Reaching? Maybe. But I need to go in spoilers territory to explain my reasoning. Spoiler It's established by now that Zemo is a master strategist. He is not crazy, he was literally always one step in front of everyone else in the entire film. What if he indeed used the Winter Soldier formula? Now he has powers, but Black Panther found him. He probably knew or suspected that if Tony was there, he wouldn't be alone. Cap, Iron Man and Winter Soldier are in the compound, but if he doesn't want to reveal that he got a hold in the formula, he is outnumbered. He can't know for sure if it's just Panther or if there is other Avengers lurking around. Zemo knows that Panther is aware that he has killed his father, not Bucky. He knows that Panther gut instinct would be killing him. What better way of getting out than getting caught by the guy that wants him dead the most by simulating that he actually wants to die? That's why Panther didn't kill him. Because of his sense of justice, he understands that he has to live to pay for the crimes he has committed, he wouldn't give him his easy way out. Or has Panther just done what Helmut wanted all along? All in all, I'm quite sure that's not the last we've seen of Helmut. Too much of a great character to remain alive and not pop up eventually somewhere. Edited May 9, 2017 by iJackSparrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZattMurdock Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Water Bottle said: No I think he did want to kill himself. I really hope that was his intention at least. Its part of the reason the ending of CW is great: that scene with Panther and him is fantastic and has lots of emotional power. If it is just a ploy for a cheap plot twist, that is a mistake on Marvel's plot. Also makes him dumb. Read my spoilers reasoning to understand why I think it's a plot twist. I think it's genius and in line with what they have established with Zemo in the MCU. He never was in the same page as the other characters. Always one step ahead. Right until the end. Edited May 9, 2017 by iJackSparrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipDerby Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, iJackSparrow said: Reaching? Maybe. But I need to go in spoilers territory to explain my reasoning. Hide contents It's established by now that Zemo is a master strategist. He is not crazy, he was literally always one step in front of everyone else in the entire film. What if he indeed used the Winter Soldier formula? Now he has powers, but Black Panther found him. He probably knew or suspected that if Tony was there, he wouldn't be alone. Cap, Iron Man and Winter Soldier are in the compound, but if he doesn't want to reveal that he got a hold in the formula, he is outnumbered. He can't know for sure if it's just Panther or if there is other Avengers lurking around. Zemo knows that Panther is aware that who killed his father was Zemo, not Bucky. He knows that Panther gut instinct would be killing him. What better way of getting out than getting caught by the guy that wants him dead the most by simulating that he actually wants to die? That's why Panther didn't kill him. Because of his sense of justice, he understands that he has to live to pay for the crimes he has committed, he wouldn't give him his easy way out. Or has Panther just done what Helmut wanted all along? All in all, I'm quite sure that's not the last we've seen of Helmut. Too much of a great character to remain alive and not pop up eventually somewhere. This is so far out there. Like saying Lex had a plan to reign in Doomsday. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Water Bottle Posted May 9, 2017 Community Manager Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 minute ago, iJackSparrow said: Read my spoilers reasoning to understand why I think it's a plot twist. I think it's genius and in line with what they have established with Zemo in the MCU. He never was in the same page as the other characters. Always one step ahead. Right until the end. I dont really care if it makes sense, it would still rob the scene of its power. I dont mind seeing him again but I think his suicidal attempt was real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZattMurdock Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, Water Bottle said: I dont really care if it makes sense, it would still rob the scene of its power. I dont mind seeing him again but I think his suicidal attempt was real. I just don't think so. I might be reading too much into this, but it's just too good to let it pass by. There are seeds left in the film for that very case. A compromise might be that he was willing to sacrifice himself if it didn't work out. For the next phase of his plan to work, the Avengers couldn't know what he had accomplished, so he was either willing to kill himself, get killed by Panther or... the hero inside T'Challa to give him just what he wanted all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMan7 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Someone is getting schooled in common sense I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Water Bottle Posted May 9, 2017 Community Manager Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 minute ago, iJackSparrow said: I just don't think so. I might be reading too much into this, but it's just too good to let it pass by. There are seeds left in the film for that very case. A compromise might be that he was willing to sacrifice himself if it didn't work out. For the next phase of his plan to work, the Avengers couldn't know what he had accomplished, so he was either willing to kill himself, get killed by Panther or... the hero inside T'Challa to give him just what he wanted all along. Yeah I think you are reading way too much into this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eevin Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Compromise: Both Zemo and Lex were terrible villains that bogged down the films that they were in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZattMurdock Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Zemo might be my favorite superhero villain since Ledger's Joker. So yeah, no. Not in the same ballpark as Snyder's Luthor at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZattMurdock Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Water Bottle said: Yeah I think you are reading way too much into this. Hmm. Let's say for a second that I am correct. Do you really think that it'd detract from the original impression you had? Care to explain further why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipDerby Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I just don't get how killing himself fits in with "breaking up" the Avengers. Like, they're obviously going to get back together eventually, so you're killing yourself for momentary satisfaction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZattMurdock Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ChipMunky said: I just don't get how killing himself fits in with "breaking up" the Avengers. Like, they're obviously going to get back together eventually, so you're killing yourself for momentary satisfaction? If Bottle is right - and he probably is - he understands that he did all that he could do. He thinks that he made a crack on the Avengers armor that will destroy them from within. He doesn't want just them getting to be accountable by the Sokovia Accords, he wants them broken. He achieved that by putting the two pillars of the Avengers against each other. He doesn't think he can do anything else to avenge his family, and he wants to get reunited with them. The way I see it, this was all just phase one. Edited May 9, 2017 by iJackSparrow 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Water Bottle Posted May 9, 2017 Community Manager Share Posted May 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, ChipMunky said: I just don't get how killing himself fits in with "breaking up" the Avengers. Like, they're obviously going to get back together eventually, so you're killing yourself for momentary satisfaction? We the audience know its temporary. From his perspective? It is permanent. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipDerby Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Water Bottle said: We the audience know its temporary. From his perspective? It is permanent. Ehhhhhhh. He's not dumb. Although, he does try to kill himself. SO maybe he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...