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grim22

The Hunger Games Franchise: What went so right (THG, CF) and then so wrong (MJ1, MJ2)

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On 11/25/2015, 2:16:17, grim22 said:

 

 

I would expect futuristic wars to be much less gory since you will have stuff like disintegrating rays which vaporize people and leave no trace and so on as opposed to the brute force way of old wars. Or even a bomb which can take out a whole city and so on.

 

I think wars are getting less gory as we go so the trend is toward the future being less gory.

 

The trenches in WW1 were a horror.  Gas attacks, horrible conditions.   And as Lord points out, Stalingrad was worse than anything we get now...you would definitely rather be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan :

22 hours ago, Lordmandeep said:

Anyone heard of the Bone Fields of Stalingrad. Anyone who knows history that in WW2, that Stalingrad is the most lethal and of the one the biggest battles in human history. So many were killed that bone fields of tens of thousands would go as far you can see.

I just watched this about a month ago.   Appalling what happened there.   Highly recommended but be ready to be disturbed.

 

 

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1 hour ago, water said:

i'm tired of people shitting on katniss for being upset about peeta being left behind in MJ1. she wasn't a "crybaby" or "moping", she was mad at herself for failing the one thing she tried to do in the quarter quell: save peeta. she doesn't even mention it that often in the movie, her main story arc is still the propaganda and doing her duty to the people of panem, which includes rescuing the victors that are being tortured because of her. when people mock her mindset in MJ1 by acting like she was being annoying or overemotional (like a certain poster here who has written "waaaahhh peetaaa" at least 100 times, but also anyone who thinks it made MJ1 a worse movie) it's quite obviously rooted in sexism and belittling and not taking girls seriously, and i'm tired of it. MJ1 and 2 told an amazing story and you know what, maybe it wasn't meant for you. "tween pandering" my ass, appealing to adult men should not be the baseline for a movie being taken seriously.

 

 

Its not sexism, its bad filmaking...

The director failed to illustrate that Katniss was not petty about Peeta but upset about the bigger picture.

 

The issue was the way MJ1 was filmed it seemed, there is an entire war going on and all she cared about a guy she really did not like a few hours ago. 

 

Now it is true the books illustrate this different but in the film it seemed rather petty and small minded of the great Katniss and made her quite an unlikeable character in MJ1 and why MJ1 suffered as a film 

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Catching Fire was the empire Strike Back, people would have rushed to Jedi but one wants Jedi part 1 and 2. you re telling the audience, remember the last one ending on that epic cliffhanger well the next one is gonna have a cliffhanger too. That doesn't excite people.

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1 hour ago, Lordmandeep said:

 

 

Its not sexism, its bad filmaking...

The director failed to illustrate that Katniss was not petty about Peeta but upset about the bigger picture.

 

The issue was the way MJ1 was filmed it seemed, there is an entire war going on and all she cared about a guy she really did not like a few hours ago. 

 

Now it is true the books illustrate this different but in the film it seemed rather petty and small minded of the great Katniss and made her quite an unlikeable character in MJ1 and why MJ1 suffered as a film 

 

no. YOU think that, incorrectly. in the movie itself, her main story arc is taking on the roll of the mockingjay and inspiring the people. katniss has been upset about the bigger picture since the very beginning. she is still upset about the bigger picture. but now peeta and the other tributes were left behind in favor of saving her, something she specifically asked them NOT to do. so of course she's going to tell those people that they have to do right by the other victors and go get them. that's why she actually has a lot of agency in MJ1, they think they can just go against her wishes and save her over everyone else and then control her. but she says no, you have to do the right thing. it is not the first time nor the last time she has bargained with authorities in these movies. there was a whole war going on and katniss was very active in caring about it, but obviously she's going to be traumatized by this point and not just able to put on her TV face any second to be the perfect leader. she was very human, and very compellingly written. and the movie did not maker her unlikeable lmfao, you and people that think that are a small, biased minority

Edited by water

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I would still love to know why this thread exists when a WWW one for Spectre wasn't allowed? Each MJ movie will end up twice as profitable as Spectre (about 400-450m in profit for each vs 200-250m or so for Spectre). And speaking DOM, MJ2's big 20-25% admissions drop from its predecessor still isn't anywhere near Spectre's 40% admissions drop from Skyfall. Hell, even WW Spectre will have the bigger admissions and gross drop from its predecessor than MJ1 to MJ2's drop. So Spectre is the bigger WWW in literally every sense. 

Edited by MovieMan89
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4 minutes ago, MovieMan89 said:

I would still love to know why this thread exists when a WWW one for Spectre wasn't allowed? Each MJ movie will end up twice as profitable as Spectre (about 400-450m in profit for each vs 200-250m or so for Spectre). And speaking DOM, MJ2's big 20-25% admissions drop from its predecessor still isn't anywhere near Spectre's 40% admissions drop from Skyfall. Hell, even WW Spectre will have the bigger admissions and gross drop from its predecessor than MJ1 to MJ2's drop. So Spectre is the bigger WWW in literally every sense. 

 

 

I actually agree 

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18 minutes ago, MovieMan89 said:

I would still love to know why this thread exists when a WWW one for Spectre wasn't allowed? Each MJ movie will end up twice as profitable as Spectre (about 400-450m in profit for each vs 200-250m or so for Spectre). And speaking DOM, MJ2's big 20-25% admissions drop from its predecessor still isn't anywhere near Spectre's 40% admissions drop from Skyfall. Hell, even WW Spectre will have the bigger admissions and gross drop from its predecessor than MJ1 to MJ2's drop. So Spectre is the bigger WWW in literally every sense. 

 

Skyfall was What Went Right anomaly of James Bond franchise

 

MJ2 was What Went Wrong anomaly of THG franchise.

 

People were, more or less, expecting a drop from Skyfall. Spectre is doing what the other two Craig Bond movies did.

 

MJ2 was never expected to drop. Two THG movies (out of three) did more than 400m.

Edited by Goffe

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2 minutes ago, Goffe said:

Skyfall was What Went Right anomaly of James Bond franchise

 

MJ2 was What Went Wrong anomaly of THG franchise.

 

People were, more or less, expecting a drop from Skyfall. Spectre is doing what the other two Craig Bond movies did.

 

MJ2 was never expected to drop. Two THG movies (out of three) did more than 400m.

Fair enough I suppose. But I thought these threads were supposed to be about the facts, not the board expectations? And the facts heavily weigh in favor of MJ2 being the bigger success story than Spectre. 

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What went wrong? The split up of the movies, combined with the fact that the last Hunger Games movie is going to be very depressing, being released at a time when people really don't want to be depressed. Or, thats where I think it went wrong. I was so disinterested in MJ1, and the book as a whole when reading it (it was very depressing to me, killed or bastardized all of my favorite characters save for maybe 2) I have no interest in seeing the last one. 

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Lmao I made everybody at my Thanksgiving dinner watch Catching Fire. Now they wanna see the last one which they apparently didn't know came out yet. Better promotion than Lionsgate. :P

Edited by angeldelmito

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19 hours ago, DeeCee said:

Mockingjay ended up becoming a civil war between two equally dislikeable leaders in Snow and Coin.  Clearly the aim was to show war is hell and nobody wins but that doesn't really make for a compelling blockbuster.  In MJ2 they tried to make Katniss's arc a proxy for the games but in the end her actual efforts in the movie had little bearing on the out come of the final battle.

 

It simply concluded as 2 very different films from the first 2.  

No, what she did change the outcome. 

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2 hours ago, Harpospoke said:

 

I think wars are getting less gory as we go so the trend is toward the future being less gory.

 

The trenches in WW1 were a horror.  Gas attacks, horrible conditions.   And as Lord points out, Stalingrad was worse than anything we get now...you would definitely rather be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan :

I just watched this about a month ago.   Appalling what happened there.   Highly recommended but be ready to be disturbed.

 

 

 

Nope, its getting easier to kill people.  You think of Stalingrad, but look at Syria and its effects of the war.  Its no different.  Chemical attacks are involved, bombings involved, people being tortured and executed in different ways.  Pilot recently getting shot while in parachute. 

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I made some research in the Most Anticipated thread.

THG was #2 behind TDKR (was #1 for a few weeks before that)

CF was clear #1 (holding it's place after Gravity's OW)

MJ1 was #5

MJ2 was #3

 

It's a small sample size, but it's clear that the GA rushed to see the first 2 movies and didn't really care for the final 2. Mockingjay isn't blockbuster material, but i still find it strange that MJ2 couldn't beat MJ1's OW.

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14 hours ago, Klingo said:

 

Nope, its getting easier to kill people.  You think of Stalingrad, but look at Syria and its effects of the war.  Its no different.  Chemical attacks are involved, bombings involved, people being tortured and executed in different ways.  Pilot recently getting shot while in parachute. 

"Easier to kill people" is equating to "less gory".   And aren't less and less people dying in wars over time?

 

Given a choice between being in the US army storming the beach at Normandy (See Saving Private Ryan) where 2400 soldiers died or being in the US army and deployed in the Middle East where it takes years to accumulate that kind of death toll, I know which one I'll choose.

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Just now, Harpospoke said:

"Easier to kill people" is equating to "less gory".   And aren't less and less people dying in wars over time?

 

Given a choice between being in the US army storming the beach at Normandy (See Saving Private Ryan) where 2400 soldiers died or being in the US army and deployed in the Middle East where it takes years to accumulate that kind of death toll, I know which one I'll choose.

Don't know if less people are dying since there hasn't been WW3.  So far in Syria more than 250,000 people died in a span of 4 years.  Thats just Syria alone.  Not even mention Iraq or Afghanistan or other conflicts going on around.  More easier to kill people is more gory not less.  It be like saying its easier to smash eggs which creates more mess.

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Here's a MAJOR contributor.  Shows!  Only 97100.  BOM lists shows for Fri/Sat/Sun, Friday is listed at 4600 which is incorrect, but Sat/Sun are at 33/30K so I went with the same figure for Friday (they don't include preview/midnight shows in that count).  

 

Here's MJ2's Fri-Sun show breakdown:

 

33000/33300/30800, 97100 total shows from Fri-Sun.  

 

Compare that to some previous openers for the pre-Thanksgiving weekend:

 

CF - 135,000

BD2 - 136,900

BD1 - 119,300

DH1 - 114,700

 

Unfortunately BOM didn't track the #s for MJ1.  THG however, had 134,300 shows.  MJ2 's running 28% behind in showtimes.  Part of this may be due to anticipated demand being lower, but it was also just a crowded market (ITO theater real estate, not gross).  I'm assuming MJ1 was sitting around the same amount of shows as CF/THG and without IMAX did 75-80% of their OW business.  I think this would probably have been much closer to MJ1 or matched it had it had the same level of showtimes, instead of barely topping Spectre (88000).

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On 11/27/2015, 5:39:13, Klingo said:

Don't know if less people are dying since there hasn't been WW3.  So far in Syria more than 250,000 people died in a span of 4 years.  Thats just Syria alone.  Not even mention Iraq or Afghanistan or other conflicts going on around.  More easier to kill people is more gory not less.  It be like saying its easier to smash eggs which creates more mess.

 

That's grotesque and approx 1% of Syria's 22m population


But the U.S. had a population of 31m during the American Civil War.  In a 4 year period there were 1.5 million military casualties.  620k dead, 400k captured/missing and another 480k wounded.   Those are the low estimates because sides could be bothered to take an official count.  Some believe military fatalities were closer to 850,000.  There were also approx 50,000 civilian fatalities from collateral damage, starvation and disease.

 

Suffice to say people have always been very effective at killing one another in mass numbers no matter the weaponry at hadn but the weaponry did tend to be gorier in the past.

 

Sieges and urban combat

This list includes sieges, as well as modern battles that were fought primarily in urban areas. Major military operations that included city fighting are listed below. Sieges and urban combat often include heavy civilian casualties, which are included in this list.

Siege Conflict Casualties Year
Siege of Sidon Phoenician rebellion against Persia Over 40,000[1] 343 BC
Siege of Jerusalem First Jewish–Roman War ~60,000 to 70,000[2] 70
Siege of Jerusalem Roman–Persian Wars ~70,000 to 90,000[3] 614
Siege of Baghdad (1258) Mongol conquests 250,000–2,100,000+ including civilians[4] 1258
Siege of Constantinople Arab–Byzantine wars 130,000–170,000[5] 717–718
Siege of Jerusalem First Crusade ~40,000[6] 1099
Siege of Baghdad Mongol invasions 80,000[7] 1258
Siege of Tenochtitlan Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire ~100,000 to 240,000[8][9] 1521
Siege of Rhodes Ottoman wars in Europe 55,200[10] 1522
Great Siege of Malta Ottoman wars in Europe 29,000[11]–40,000[12] 1565
Siege of Ulsan Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–98) 20,000[13] 1597
Siege of La Rochelle French Wars of Religion Over 18,600[14] 1627–28
Sack of Magdeburg Thirty Years' War 20,000[15]–25,000+[16] 1630
Second Siege of Zaragoza Peninsular War 64,000[17] 1808–09
Siege of Vicksburg American Civil War 19,000[17] 1863
Siege of Petersburg American Civil War 70,000[18] 1864–65
Siege of Plevna Russo-Turkish War 37,000[19] 1877
Siege of Port Arthur Russo-Japanese War 100,000[20] 1904–05
Siege of Adrianople First Balkan War 93,282, including captured[21] 1912–13
Battle of Taiyuan Second Sino-Japanese War 130,000[22] 1937
Battle of Xinkou Second Sino-Japanese War 200,000[23] 1937
Battle of Shanghai Second Sino-Japanese War 400,000[24] 1937
Battle of Wuhan Second Sino-Japanese War 540,000[25] 1938
First Battle of Changsha Second Sino-Japanese War 80,000+[26] 1939
Battle of Nanchang Second Sino-Japanese War 75,328[27] 1939
Siege of Odessa World War II 133,813[28] 1941
Battle of South Shanxi Second Sino-Japanese War 120,000+[29] 1941
Third Battle of Changsha Second Sino-Japanese War 84,862 killed[30] 1942
Battle of Stalingrad World War II 1,250,000[31]–1,798,619[32] 1942–43
Battle of Changde Second Sino-Japanese War 100,000[33] 1943
Battle of West Hubei Second Sino-Japanese War 115,830[34] 1943
Siege of Leningrad World War II 1,117,000[35][36] – 4,500,000[37] 1941–44
Warsaw Uprising World War II 200,000+ killed[38] 1944
Siege of Budapest World War II 422,000[39] 1944–45
Battle of Berlin World War II 1,298,745[40][41] 1945
Siege of Changchun Chinese Civil War 425,000[42] 1948[43]
Battle of Kiev World War II 700,544[44] 1941
Battle of Manila World War II 100,000–500,000[45][46][47][48] 1945
Siege of Sarajevo Bosnian War 12,000 killed, with 50,000 wounded[49][50] 1992–96
Battle of Aleppo Syrian Civil War more than 24,000 killed[51] 2012-ongoing

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

War Deaths Date Location Notes
World War II 60,000,000–85,000,000 1939–1945 Worldwide see World War II casualties
Mongol conquests 40,000,000–70,000,000 1206–1324 Eurasia [1][2][3][4]
Taiping Rebellion 20,000,000–100,000,000 1850–1864 China [5] – may be underestimated
Three Kingdoms War 36,000,000–40,000,000 184–280 China [6][7]
An Lushan Rebellion 13,000,000–36,000,000 755–763 China [8] – may be underestimated
Second Sino-Japanese War 25,000,000 1937–1945 China [9] – Part of World War II
Qing dynasty conquest of Ming Dynasty 25,000,000 1616–1662 China [10]
World War I/Great War 20,000,000 1914–1918 Europe see World War I casualties
         
Chinese Civil War 8,000,000 1927–1949 China [15]
Conquests of Tamerlane 7,000,000–20,000,000 1370–1405 Eurasia [16][17]
Dungan Revolt 8,000,000–12,000,000 1862-1877 China  
Russian Civil War and Foreign Intervention 5,000,000–9,000,000 1917–1922 Russia [18]
Napoleonic Wars 3,500,000–6,000,000 1803–1815 Europe see Napoleonic Wars casualties
Thirty Years' War 3,000,000–11,500,000 1618–1648 Europe [19]
Second Congo War/Great War of Africa 2,500,000–5,400,000 1998–2003 Central Africa [20][21][22][23]
Goguryeo-Sui War 2,000,000 At Least 598–614 Korea [24] – Korean(Goguryeo) and civilian casualties are not included.
French Wars of Religion 2,000,000–4,000,000 1562–1598 France [25] – also known as Huguenot Wars
Shaka's conquests 2,000,000 1816–1828 South Africa [26]
Korean War 1,200,000 1950–1953 Korea [27]
Conquests of Mehmed II 'the Conqueror' 873,000 1451–1481 Eurasia [28] – may either be underestimated or overestimated
Vietnam War/Second Indochina War 800,000–3,800,000 1955–1975 Vietnam [28][29][30]
Mexican Revolution 1,000,000–2,000,000 1910–1920 Mexico [31]
Siege of Jerusalem 1,100,000 73 Middle East  
Iran–Iraq War/First Persian Gulf War 1,000,000 1980–1988 Middle East [32]
Japanese invasions of Korea 1,000,000 1592–1598 Korea [33]
Biafra War 1,000,000 1967–1970 Nigeria  
Soviet war in Afghanistan 957,865–1,622,865 1979–1989 Afghanistan [34][35][36]
Seven Years' War 868,000–1,400,000 1756–1763 Europe [37][38]

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