NUKE IT FROM ORBIT - The Marvel/DC Kobayashi Maru Thread - BVS vs CIVIL WAR (for masochists only) | SPOILERS ALLOWED

[Mikasa Ackerman]

Well, neither film has been released so I guess this calls for... trailer ranking?

 

1. BvS SDCC

2. Civil War teaser

3. Civil War 2

4. BvS final trailer

5. BvS teaser

6. BvS trailer 2

[Kalo]

1. Civil War trailer 
2. BvS SDCC
3. Civil War teaser
4. BVS final trailer
5. Civil War SB Spot
6. BVS teaser
7. BVS trailer 2

 

[Mikasa Ackerman]

Ah yeah if I had added the SB spot to my list it would have been bottom. Not a fan of the "united we stand" chant.

[MaxRoad]

Honestly,Civil War trailer only spidey makes me excited.So...

1.BvS SDCC

2.BvS final trailer

3.Civil War trailer

4.Civil War teaser

5.BVS teaser

6.BVS trailer 2

[James]

7 hours ago, rukaio101 said:

Umm... That's only unrealistic if you believe everyone in the world is apparently a complete sociopath.

Yeah, because having that kind of power you are content to spend your years working a menial job... All in all, there's a reason why politicians are in 99% of the cases corrupt. That BvS trailer put it well: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. As for being a sociopath, that is a completely subjective matter. Back in the Inquisition age or even the Nazi one, killing certain people was considered normal - my point being that the definition of certain social elements are given by those in power (working in the legal system I see that every day - a law says something is illegal one day, then dismisses it the next one) . And those that hold absolute power can define anything they want because they are the ultimate decision makers and no one can say they are wrong. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that you and me can talk endlessly about being good and kind and all that, but I sincerely thing that having that kind of power would turn 99.9% of the planet in power hungry "sociopaths". It's just the human nature.    

[MaxRoad]

umm...Interesting

[Mikasa Ackerman]

5 minutes ago, MaxRoad said:

umm...Interesting

 

Maybe he's jealous that they made a movie that was superior to his story.

[Talkie]

Millar is just pissy because Marvel has completely revamped Civil War so that it doesn't resemble his shitty story. 

[MaxRoad]

12 minutes ago, Mikasa Ackerman said:

 

Maybe he's jealous that they made a movie that was superior to his story.

I don't think so.You should know this guy wrote "Red Son"

Edited March 13, 2016 by MaxRoad

[Mikasa Ackerman]

Just now, MaxRoad said:

I don't think so.You should know this guy wrote "Red Son"

 

Oh I know who Millar is. While I quite like Red Son don't mind Old Man Logan, I dislike the rest of his work that I've read. I really didn't like Civil War, and was upset when they originally announced that it would be the basis of Cap III.

[MaxRoad]

5 minutes ago, Mikasa Ackerman said:

 

Oh I know who Millar is. While I quite like Red Son don't mind Old Man Logan, I dislike the rest of his work that I've read. I really didn't like Civil War, and was upset when they originally announced that it would be the basis of Cap III.

Well.I think so too,especially "MCU version"Civil War.Because their copyright is not complete.This made the "WAR" looks like a street punk fight.

[Mikasa Ackerman]

2 minutes ago, MaxRoad said:

Well.I think so too,especially "MCU version"Civil War.Because their copyright is not complete.This made the "WAR" looks like a street punk fight.

 

I wasn't apprehensive because of scale or character rights, I just don't like the story. It's got a lot of people doing things that feel out of character, and an ending that feels really anticlimactic. Registration stories have been done better (mostly by X-Men), hero vs hero stories have been done better (Kingdom Come for example), and the death of the main character at the end (I won't spoil here in case others haven't read it) was really stupid.

[JohnnyBats]

20 hours ago, MaxRoad said:

I think CW will be much better than BvS...Because boz gives CA2 A-,and BvS B+

 

Now many people say CW is the best MCU film,So...

 

He said definetely above a B+for BVS...that could be a A- or an A...don't change his words...and also people that say CW is the best of marvel don't particularely mean in terms of quallity

[RandomCat]

One. I'm surprised how civil this all is.

Two. At the end of the day, why I don't like MoS, will always come down to Pa Kent. That Clarks morals come from not the Kent's but Jor El. Having not read a lot of Super Man comics outside of Death and Return, having only bits of the 90s animated and Richard Donner as sources, this feels jarring. The Pa Kent I know never seemed like the man who would say, let people die.

 

The comparison I can put this to is like ASM movies. Where Uncle Ben's Death is a foot note. As a life long Spider-Man fan, that is frustrating since the death is so pivotal to his character. I know that as creators the people making an ASM (or MoS) may want to tell and change things because that is good storytelling. No one wants to tell the same story over and over again. But at times when I see small things, like the focus of both these movies shifting to our main characters biological parants, seem jarring to me. And I'd suspect a wider audience who only really knows them from previous films or TV.

 

Thought I'd throw my opinions of MoS in here. I've loved reading everyone's so far.

[Ethan Hunt]

6 hours ago, Mikasa Ackerman said:

Well, neither film has been released so I guess this calls for... trailer ranking?

 

1. BvS SDCC

2. Civil War teaser

3. Civil War 2

4. BvS final trailer

5. BvS teaser

6. BvS trailer 2

BvS Comic con

Civil War trailer 2

Civil War Teaser

Bvs teaser

Bvs final trailer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BvS trailer 2

[Plain Old Tele]

4 hours ago, RandomJC said:

One. I'm surprised how civil this all is.

 

I know, the irony of it all, right?  

[rukaio101]

5 hours ago, James said:

Yeah, because having that kind of power you are content to spend your years working a menial job... All in all, there's a reason why politicians are in 99% of the cases corrupt. 

Quite a few politicians are to some degree corrupt (although I'd call the vast majority just assholes). Remarkably few, however, are willing to murder people on a minor whim.

 

Quote

That BvS trailer put it well: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

But the question here is are you mistaking correlation or causation? A lot of people given 'absolute power' over their country have turned out to be dictatorial assholes, that's true. However, it must also be pointed out that those people largely sought out the power for themselves or were born into it. That leads one to question as to whether it's the power itself that corrupts and would do so to everyone, or simply that that sort of power largely attracts people with the mindset that allows them to be easily corrupted/dictatorial/etc.

 

And that's what makes Clark/Superman different. He never sought out his powers. He never wanted the strength to lift mountains. He never wanted to rule over anybody. He's a regular nice guy raised by (in most incarnations) loving parents who taught him to respect the rights and lives of others. Not a dictator who backstabbed and cheated his way into power. So why would he immediately go sociopathic?

 

Quote

Back in the Inquisition age or even the Nazi one, killing certain people was considered normal

Except you're ignoring the context and thought process of those times and incredibly oversimplifying it. During the Inquisition/Nazi age, it was a time of scapegoating and widely thought that heathens/Jews were destroying the country and that killing them all was for the greater good. Obviously they were horribly horribly wrong and deserve every bit of scorn we pour on them nowadays, but it was more complicated than 'I have power now I'm going to kill people because I can lolz'. And I'm not even going to get into stuff like our natural deference to authority as shown in Milgram's experiments.

 

And even then, you're ignoring the people who did good during those times. Oscar Schindler had power. And he used it all to save lives. So did hundreds of others who risked their lives and used what power they had to save the lives of people they barely even knew. You're telling me they were all corrupt too? 

 

Quote

- my point being that the definition of certain social elements are given by those in power (working in the legal system I see that every day - a law says something is illegal one day, then dismisses it the next one).

Irrelevant. While it's certainly true that society's moral views on a subject can certainly change over time, for better or worse, either way they change because the majority of society think it's the right thing to do. That's a very long way from 'Superman should murder guys who slightly bug him'.

 

Quote

And those that hold absolute power can define anything they want because they are the ultimate decision makers and no one can say they are wrong.

And there's the key word. Can. Not necessarily that they will.

 

Quote

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that you and me can talk endlessly about being good and kind and all that, but I sincerely thing that having that kind of power would turn 99.9% of the planet in power hungry "sociopaths". It's just the human nature.

Then I pity you for that world view. It must be very depressing.

 

Don't get me wrong, my views on human nature aren't all that shining either. I think we're all colossally stupid and insanely good at internally justifying our own actions as 'right', no matter how terrible they obviously are to everyone else. But I do think, deep down, we all want to be good people and we all try to reach that goal. A lot fail. Some do not. You can see it in the people who risk their lives protesting causes, helping people they barely know, running into blazing fires to save a child. Like Mr Rogers said, “When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.” Think of every disaster in recent memory. Hurricane Katrina, the Boxing Day Tsunami, 9/11, the list goes on. And the immediate reply from people all over the world is almost always the same. "How can we help?" Does that sound to you like a people who would without fail turn into corrupt sociopaths the second they got some kind of power? It doesn't to me. And, to some extent, that ideal is personified in Superman. He can see and feel every disaster, every cry for help on Earth and his first thought is not for himself but "How can I help?" Despite being alien, he is in fact an embodiment of the best of humanity. Not perfect, but trying his damned best to be. That's true for him as Clark Kent and as Superman and why MoS failed so utterly by having him mope around doing nothing for the first half. And it's also why, poor usage in MoS aside, this quote from All Star Superman is still my favourite.

 

“You have given them an ideal to aspire to, embodied their highest aspirations. They will race, and stumble, and fall and crawl....and curse....and finally.... They will join you in the sun, Kal-El. They will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time you will help them accomplish wonders.”

 

(Boy, whodda thunk this thread would be the one to turn into a complex debate on morality?)

[James]

39 minutes ago, rukaio101 said:

Quite a few politicians are to some degree corrupt (although I'd call the vast majority just assholes). Remarkably few, however, are willing to murder people on a minor whim.

 

But the question here is are you mistaking correlation or causation? A lot of people given 'absolute power' over their country have turned out to be dictatorial assholes, that's true. However, it must also be pointed out that those people largely sought out the power for themselves or were born into it. That leads one to question as to whether it's the power itself that corrupts and would do so to everyone, or simply that that sort of power largely attracts people with the mindset that allows them to be easily corrupted/dictatorial/etc.

 

And that's what makes Clark/Superman different. He never sought out his powers. He never wanted the strength to lift mountains. He never wanted to rule over anybody. He's a regular nice guy raised by (in most incarnations) loving parents who taught him to respect the rights and lives of others. Not a dictator who backstabbed and cheated his way into power. So why would he immediately go sociopathic?

 

Except you're ignoring the context and thought process of those times and incredibly oversimplifying it. During the Inquisition/Nazi age, it was a time of scapegoating and widely thought that heathens/Jews were destroying the country and that killing them all was for the greater good. Obviously they were horribly horribly wrong and deserve every bit of scorn we pour on them nowadays, but it was more complicated than 'I have power now I'm going to kill people because I can lolz'. And I'm not even going to get into stuff like our natural deference to authority as shown in Milgram's experiments.

 

And even then, you're ignoring the people who did good during those times. Oscar Schindler had power. And he used it all to save lives. So did hundreds of others who risked their lives and used what power they had to save the lives of people they barely even knew. You're telling me they were all corrupt too? 

 

Irrelevant. While it's certainly true that society's moral views on a subject can certainly change over time, for better or worse, either way they change because the majority of society think it's the right thing to do. That's a very long way from 'Superman should murder guys who slightly bug him'.

 

And there's the key word. Can. Not necessarily that they will.

 

Then I pity you for that world view. It must be very depressing.

 

Don't get me wrong, my views on human nature aren't all that shining either. I think we're all colossally stupid and insanely good at internally justifying our own actions as 'right', no matter how terrible they obviously are to everyone else. But I do think, deep down, we all want to be good people and we all try to reach that goal. A lot fail. Some do not. You can see it in the people who risk their lives protesting causes, helping people they barely know, running into blazing fires to save a child. Like Mr Rogers said, “When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.” Think of every disaster in recent memory. Hurricane Katrina, the Boxing Day Tsunami, 9/11, the list goes on. And the immediate reply from people all over the world is almost always the same. "How can we help?" Does that sound to you like a people who would without fail turn into corrupt sociopaths the second they got some kind of power? It doesn't to me. And, to some extent, that ideal is personified in Superman. He can see and feel every disaster, every cry for help on Earth and his first thought is not for himself but "How can I help?" Despite being alien, he is in fact an embodiment of the best of humanity. Not perfect, but trying his damned best to be. That's true for him as Clark Kent and as Superman and why MoS failed so utterly by having him mope around doing nothing for the first half. And it's also why, poor usage in MoS aside, this quote from All Star Superman is still my favourite.

 

“You have given them an ideal to aspire to, embodied their highest aspirations. They will race, and stumble, and fall and crawl....and curse....and finally.... They will join you in the sun, Kal-El. They will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time you will help them accomplish wonders.”

 

(Boy, whodda thunk this thread would be the one to turn into a complex debate on morality?)

We have different views, but I really enjoyed this talk. And it gave me a few ideas for my book so thank you

[Kalo]

Wow, people are having civilized discussions about power, corruption morality, and the human will to do good over evil. and not belittling and insulting one another and starting flame wars. beautiful. 

[Mikasa Ackerman]

14 hours ago, RandomJC said:

One. I'm surprised how civil this all is.

Two. At the end of the day, why I don't like MoS, will always come down to Pa Kent. That Clarks morals come from not the Kent's but Jor El. Having not read a lot of Super Man comics outside of Death and Return, having only bits of the 90s animated and Richard Donner as sources, this feels jarring. The Pa Kent I know never seemed like the man who would say, let people die.

 

The comparison I can put this to is like ASM movies. Where Uncle Ben's Death is a foot note. As a life long Spider-Man fan, that is frustrating since the death is so pivotal to his character. I know that as creators the people making an ASM (or MoS) may want to tell and change things because that is good storytelling. No one wants to tell the same story over and over again. But at times when I see small things, like the focus of both these movies shifting to our main characters biological parants, seem jarring to me. And I'd suspect a wider audience who only really knows them from previous films or TV.

 

Thought I'd throw my opinions of MoS in here. I've loved reading everyone's so far.

 

I could see where you're coming from with the Pa Kent thing, but honestly they would only need to tweak one scene, the infamous "...maybe" one. Because there are couple of other great Pa Kent/Clark moments right. For example, the conversation with "why I can't I keep pretending to be your son?", and the later one where Clark talks about wanting to hit the other kid are both great examples of classic comic book Pa Kent that most people don't have a problem with. They now go unnoticed, which is a shame, they were decent scenes.