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CaptainJackSparrow

⊃∪∩⪽ | Legendary | October 22 2021 | Denis Villeneuve | Returns to IMAX on December 3

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1 hour ago, Elessar said:

 

As much as i love Dune, FOTR it is not. That's not a knock on Dune, FOTR is just so amazing. The whole trilogy actually, even though i have a couple issues with ROTK but the highlights, oh the highlights...

Those movies are the gold standard. Nothing comes close. At all. Some of the greatest films ever made. Fellowship was just so magical to experience for the first time. All three were.

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On 9/16/2021 at 12:25 AM, Lucas said:

It's a great film, a breath of fresh air for big blockbuster filmmaking. In the age of quips, and an excessive need to look at the audience and nod to confirm that "yes, we know big concepts are silly"... this has the same level of maturity to the way it approaches scenes and characters as great indie dramas, just with a budget and scope that makes it look bigger than the biggest blockbusters.

 

I was very high on it to start, after a little while it started petering out even though it remained very good, but then something would happen that brought it up again, and kept moving along very well. I do not know how a general audience is gonna react to the pacing of it, or the somber tone. It works very well for me, but I am definitely gonna have to be picky which ones among my close friends I recommend it to. It would be easier to recommend to people, had the story actually ended here.

 

The main point of contention is definitely going to be where it ends. I think what makes the ending feel jarring to people is what big blockbusters have conditioned us to expect from the third act. You tend to end a blockbuster with the biggest action scene occupying the third act, but Dune is a pretty extreme version of doing the opposite. The lack of a huge climactic sequence probably doesn't clue some people in that the end of the movie is about to come. I would say that to me the movie felt about as complete as Fellowship, which does have a grander third act (though compared to pretty much any setpiece in the following two films, it's pretty damn small and insignificant, just dudes in the woods), but it also could not make it more clear that there is absolutely more story to come. What'll also set people off with Dune is not even knowing if there's actually gonna be more to come, and if there is, when?

 

If Dune Part 2 (and maybe even a Part 3) is comparable to this, then collectively Dune has a real shot at being my favorite film trilogy (or duology), that would truly make this the cinematic thunderclap that one tweet claimed. Dune Part 1 just can't do it alone.  Though as far as comparing it to other first-entries in a franchise? This is the best in a long time.

Saw the film again today, and I agree with what I wrote last month - except this time there were no points where the pacing started to lose me.

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1 hour ago, Plain Old Tele said:

I mean, “cold” usually refers to filmmaking styles, not necessarily what the characters are doing. I’d characterize THE SHINING as pretty cold and Shelley Duvall cries through the whole dang movie. 

 

Ah, OK. Makes sense. :)

 

 

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I read LOTR as a teenager and I watched FOTR three times in cinema (one time I had the last sold seat which was front row and the right most seat in front of a giant screen - speaking about a different perspective...). I loved the books and the movies. When I make the comparisons, I have nothing but respect for both epic stories and the rich storyworlds. You know, Frank Herbert as so many others in the 1960s America were inspired by LOTR.

 

I think the movie comparisons breakdown and aren't so fruitful when you go into details. Close up they are different beasts, yet beautiful in their own ways. However, when you compare how different they are to what we are used to in the times they came out they have a lot of similarities. They open a new world full of richness and depth, worlds that the authors spent their lifetimes perfecting.

 

I think Lucas captured well the comparison with FOTR.

 

Dune needs Dune 2 (and Messiah) more than FOTR needed the T2T & ROTK. Though I think the need arises from the world building itself. Everyone can slip into the world of LOTR more easily. We've seen forests & countryside, heard, read, or seen fairytales, and so forth. The environment and building blocks are more familiar and relatable from the get go. Now move to the world of Dune with its galactic setting of spice, sandworms, and otherworldly mythology. It takes time to introduce that world and Dune Part 1 does it well. Sure, you could simplify it and make it like Star Wars (a different, yet a beautiful beast again) but then you would loose the depth that LOTR had in its world, the "realness" of it all.

 

We may well have stars aligned that a huge payoff awaits us with Dune Part 2 & the Messiah, and then we have that LOTR / Star Wars (original)-esque new trilogy at hand which is different in appearance but nonetheless hugely awe inspiring.

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7 hours ago, Menor said:

Rendezvous with Rama is nowhere near as commercial-friendly as Dune. Also it's basically one good book and doesn't set up a super vast world like Dune. Though I might be underselling the series, I didn't even make it halfway through the sequel because it was just such a step down from the first. 

Yes, you are right that Rendezvous With Rama isn't so much a standalone world as Dune or LOTR. I would be just excited to see it as a movie. This was my way to tip my toe further and open up wishes for Arthur C. Clarke adaptations. We've had 2001 & 2010, but there's also 2061, 3001, and plenty of other works. 3001 & Villeneuve, or Rama?

 

I agree that many of these are hard sells for the general audiences but do they need to make billion dollars each?

 

I think almost all of these are filmable up to a point that they have big enough budgets and are enough financial successes to make. Is it easy? No, but neither were 2001, Star Wars, and LOTR when they were first time introduced. All timeless movies usually scream for right people at the right place at the right time with dedication, hardship, and struggle on the way getting them out in the first place. Why would these be any different?

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49 minutes ago, von Kenni said:

Yes, you are right that Rendezvous With Rama isn't so much a standalone world as Dune or LOTR. I would be just excited to see it as a movie. This was my way to tip my toe further and open up wishes for Arthur C. Clarke adaptations. We've had 2001 & 2010, but there's also 2061, 3001, and plenty of other works. 3001 & Villeneuve, or Rama?

 

I agree that many of these are hard sells for the general audiences but do they need to make billion dollars each?

 

I think almost all of these are filmable up to a point that they have big enough budgets and are enough financial successes to make. Is it easy? No, but neither were 2001, Star Wars, and LOTR when they were first time introduced. All timeless movies usually scream for right people at the right place at the right time with dedication, hardship, and struggle on the way getting them out in the first place. Why would these be any different?

3001 would be a really interesting one. I think I have been convinced by you and @Plain Old Tele that Rama can be successfully adapted with the right people. Would be really exciting to see for sure.

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5 minutes ago, famicommander said:

George Lucas already turned Dune into Star Wars. He called it "Star Wars"

Touché 😏

 

Though George Lucas was influenced by Dune, I wouldn't discount the originality of Star Wars and how Lucas created the world of it by infusing different cultural and societal themes in it by himself.

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13 minutes ago, Menor said:

3001 would be a really interesting one. I think I have been convinced by you and @Plain Old Tele that Rama can be successfully adapted with the right people. Would be really exciting to see for sure.

Like LOTR and Dune, Rama got in my dreams while reading it. That's usually a good sign for me of how it can be turned into a movie. But yes, you can approach it in many ways, and not all would fly.

 

I haven't researched lately if Rama is in the works but there has been several attempts to film it in the past 20 years. I wouldn't be surprised if and when Dune succeeds enough (after Part 2?), it would be revived. I need to research who has the rights currently...

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7 minutes ago, von Kenni said:

Touché 😏

 

Though George Lucas was influenced by Dune, I wouldn't discount the originality of Star Wars and how Lucas created the world of it by infusing different cultural and societal themes in it by himself.

I love Star Wars, and there are clearly some other influences on it too (obviously Akira Kurosawa's films and Flash Gordon), but when I finally read all the Dune novels it was pretty staggering just how much stuff in it went directly into Star Wars. Even more if you see the original script (Leia's ship was originally hauling spice when they got boarded by Vader). 

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2 minutes ago, famicommander said:

I love Star Wars, and there are clearly some other influences on it too (obviously Akira Kurosawa's films and Flash Gordon), but when I finally read all the Dune novels it was pretty staggering just how much stuff in it went directly into Star Wars. Even more if you see the original script (Leia's ship was originally hauling spice when they got boarded by Vader). 

 

Very true! 

 

3 minutes ago, tonytr87 said:

I'm not big on Star Wars, mostly because the storytelling is a bit too simplistic for me. Dune looks/sounds to me like if you took Star Wars and made it for adults. 

"Dune looks/sounds to me like if you took Star Wars and made it for adults." <- couldn't agree more.

 

I'm a fan of the Empire Strikes Back always but Star Trek has been more of my thing...but that's a whole other galaxy and let's not go there.

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17 minutes ago, Menor said:

I would say Tatooine is quite heavily inspired by Dune but Star Wars as a whole? Not really. The stories are completely different.

Spoiler

-Both Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides are direct descendants of the villain in a twist reveal, both are absurdly powerful due to their genetics, both have biblical names, one has a sister named Alia, the other a sister named Leia

-Bene Gesserit martial arts are called Prana-Bindu, Jedi martial arts are called Jedi-Bindu. In general, both the Bene Gesserit and Jedi are groups of quasi-government super beings that act on their own dogma in service of what they see as the greater good. Both also consider love to be taboo due to its potential negative influence on judgement. The Jedi Mind Trick is also basically Bene Gesserit Voice

-The Sarlacc Pit is a hole with a giant sandworm in it

-The Trade Federation is an amalgamation of CHOAM and the Spacing Guild

-The Fremen collect atmospheric water through wind traps, the Lars family does it through vaporizers

-Spice Harvesters are in both, Star Wars repulsors are basically Dune suspensors

-Again, in the original script Leia was a member of the Great Houses protecting a shipment of Spice rather than a member of the Galactic Senate protecting Death Star blueprits

-Chani and Padme both die giving birth to super twins after their would-be messiah husband falls from grace

And that's not even close to all of it.

Edited by famicommander
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3 minutes ago, famicommander said:
  Hide contents

-Both Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides are direct descendants of the villain in a twist reveal, both are absurdly powerful due to their genetics, both have biblical names, one has a sister named Alia, the other a sister named Leia

-Bene Gesserit martial arts are called Prana-Bindu, Jedi martial arts are called Jedi-Bindu. In general, both the Bene Gesserit and Jedi are groups of quasi-government super beings that act on their own dogma in service of what they see as the greater good. Both also consider love to be taboo due to its potential negative influence on judgement. The Jedi Mind Trick is also basically Bene Gesserit Voice

-The Sarlacc Pit is a hole with a giant sandworm in it

-The Trade Federation is an amalgamation of CHOAM and the Spacing Guild

-The Fremen collect atmospheric water through wind traps, the Lars family does it through vaporizers

-Spice Harvesters are in both, Star Wars repulsors are basically Dune suspensors

-Again, in the original script Leia was a member of the Great Houses protecting a shipment of Spice rather than a member of the Galactic Senate protecting Death Star blueprits

-Chani and Padme both die giving birth to super twins

And that's not even close to all of it.

I mean this list is self contradictory, if Chani is Padme then Paul is Anakin, but your first statement is saying Paul is Luke (completely different characters regardless of surface level similarity). Same thing with Jedi and BG, you can find similarity but what they actually do in the narrative is quite different. The CHOAM and Trade Federation comparison also seems rather thin to me, again considering their respective roles in the story.

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12 minutes ago, Menor said:

I mean this list is self contradictory, if Chani is Padme then Paul is Anakin, but your first statement is saying Paul is Luke (completely different characters regardless of surface level similarity). Same thing with Jedi and BG, you can find similarity but what they actually do in the narrative is quite different. The CHOAM and Trade Federation comparison also seems rather thin to me, again considering their respective roles in the story.

He didn't copy the entire plot 1:1 in chronological order but it's clear the influence of Dune oozes all throughout all six films from Lucas in the series. It goes far, far beyond the superficial similarities of Arrakis and Tattooine. Right down to the shocking way the second entries in the respective franchises ended. 

 

It's like trying to argue that DnD didn't take a lot from Lord of the Rings. LOTR wasn't the only source Gygax drew upon by any means but to deny the massive, massive influence would be absurd.

 

Star Wars is pretty much Dune with some parts snipped out and replaced with Kurosawa movies and Flash Gordon. And I love it for that.

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