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Joker l Oct 4 2019 | Warner Bros. l Todd Phillips directing l Joaquin Phoenix to play Joker. World Premiere @ Venice, NA Premiere @ TIFF l Is it a CBM? 🤔

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53 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

Uhh, aren't 99.9% cbms sold as action movies that happened to have more dramatic, serious and/or comedic elements? Not that a comic book movie can't be anything else. But to say this movie is being sold as a cbm when it doesn't resemble the vast majority of cbms is hilarious. This is being sold as a drama that happens to center a comic book character. That's what I see at the moment. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Water Bottle said:

 

Doesn't matter how you see it. You ain't so special you can just conjure up meanings. CBMs are simply movies based on comic books.  That's it. That's what they are, their whole definition. Not action. Not comedy. Not serious or dramatic. No the whole definition is that their source material is comic books.

 

Joker is a CBM. It's source material is comic books. If Maus was made into a movie (hopefully CGI and not digital fur technology) it would still be a CBM even though the graphic novel is about the Holocaust.

 

Joker also seems to be a character-centric drama. But that doesn't make it any less of a CBM.

 

This post would resonate more if I were claiming that Joker isn't a cbm. This is about how WB is selling the movie and if I don't think they are selling it as a cbm, who is anyone else to tell me I'm wrong? My view is that it's being sold as a drama, first and foremost and until I see something to the contrary, my take isn't going to change.

Edited by Ororo Munroe

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Yeah, Warners is trying despertlly to hide that "Joker" is based on  a comic book character.. After all movies based on comic books are box office poison, we all know that.

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21 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

Why don't you enlighten me on what other cbm elements I'm missing in the promotion? Surely that would be more useful than throwing pointless snark because you don't like my take on this? 

In the promotion?  It's drawing on semi-well known aspects of the Joker's character. Him being a failed comedian.  His alienation from society.  

 

it's also drawing on the Joker appealing to other folks in universe, as seen by hints in the trailer that he forms something of an anarchist army.

 

Is it based on character tropes from comics?  Sure.  But it's also being sold as an origin story, so that's to be expected, especially for a character who is greatly defined by their psychological issues.

 

And it's the "being sold as an origin story" which is key here.  Even if as a one shot (or Elseworld if one prefers).

 

Let me put it this way.  I'm not the biggest comic book guy in the world.  I left my comic reading days a long time ago.  Watching this promotion I instantly see it as an origin story in a comic book universe.  One heavily grounded, sure.  But an origin story all the same.

 

Only thing missing is the famous acid bathtub visit.  And, who knows?  Maybe that'll sneak in somehow.

 

Don't know what to tell you. Marketing seems clear as day that this is being marketed as an origin story for an exceedingly famous comic book character.  Hard to sell it more as a CBM than that.

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3 minutes ago, Porthos said:

In the promotion?  It's drawing on semi-well known aspects of the Joker's character. Him being a failed comedian.  His alienation from society.  

 

it's also drawing on the Joker appealing to other folks in universe, as seen by hints in the trailer that he forms something of an anarchist army.

 

Is it based on character tropes from comics?  Sure.  But it's also being sold as an origin story, so that's to be expected, especially for a character who is greatly defined by their psychological issues.

 

And it's the "being sold as an origin story" which is key here.  Even if as a one shot (or Elseworld if one prefers).

 

Let me put it this way.  I'm not the biggest comic book guy in the world.  I left my comic reading days a long time ago.  Watching this promotion I instantly see it as an origin story in a comic book universe.  One heavily grounded, sure.  But an origin story all the same.

 

Only thing missing is the famous acid bathtub visit.  And, who knows?  Maybe that'll sneak in somehow.

 

Don't know what to tell you. Marketing seems clear as day that this is being marketed as an origin story for an exceedingly famous comic book character.  Hard to sell it more as a CBM than that.

I appreciate you sharing a serious take but yeah, we aren't going to agree on this. Maybe the next trailer or bit of promotion will change my view (I doubt it but we'll see).

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

I appreciate you sharing a serious take but yeah, we aren't going to agree on this. Maybe the next trailer or bit of promotion will change my view (I doubt it but we'll see).

Fair enough.  I would add one other thing. A lot, and I do mean a lot, of comic book movies/TV series have what might be called heightened reality.  Not so much OTT acting and setting, but a sort of, oh I don't know, larger than life quality to it. This absolutely includes the promotion here, naturally.

 

Even the oft-cited Batman Begins had a VERY larger than life quality to it, both in film and in promotion.  Same for the many many TV series popping up surrounding various comic book characters.


This film, on the other hand, seems to be (for the most part) saying: Nah.  Not my jam.

 

I've called it grounded before but down to earth might even be better.  An anti-epic, if you will,

 

But even here, I can't fully agree that it won't dabble its toes in some larger than life qualities.  The scenes of some sort of mass movement centered around the Joker in the trailer does suggest, and I do mean the word suggest here, that the Joker will have more of a, hmmm lets not go with fantastical but instead super inspirational, affect on folks.  Maybe even messianic (in a VERY dark way).

 

And it's here where it might be more comic book movie-ish than might ordinarily seem.  Here is where it might swing more in to the larger than life/heightened reality camp that is very familiar to most CBMs.  In a way, it almost could be how a 'regular world' turns into a 'comic book world', which is something Batman Begins touched on at the edges.  This is just doing it from the reverse angle.  

 

Maybe.

 

But even if it doesn't, I don't think you need a larger than life quality for something to be sold as a CBM.

 

====

 

All of the above wasn't an attempt to get you to change your mind, but perhaps look at it from a different angle and perhaps help crystalize some issues you might be having with the promotion/content of the flick.

Edited by Porthos

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2 hours ago, Ororo Munroe said:

This post would resonate more if I were claiming that Joker isn't a cbm. This is about how WB is selling the movie and if I don't think they are selling it as a cbm, who is anyone else to tell me I'm wrong? My view is that it's being sold as a drama, first and foremost and until I see something to the contrary, my take isn't going to change.

 

Right because calling the movie Joker and making it clear it's about the most famous CBM super-villain of all time somehow doesn't qualify as marketing as a CBM😂 If WB didn't want to market this as a CBM they wouldn't have called it Joker. They would have called it something like "Clown School" and instead of the Joker's face in JOKER make-up, it would be without his make-up. And instead of "Put on a Happy Face" as the tagline referencing the greatest CBM of all time, The Dark Knight, the tagline would be something like "This year, the punchline is anarchy."

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5 hours ago, Water Bottle said:

the tagline would be something like "This year, the punchline is anarchy."

That's a really good tagline though. :ph34r: 

 

Hamill Joker-esque, even.

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7 hours ago, Water Bottle said:

 

Right because calling the movie Joker and making it clear it's about the most famous CBM super-villain of all time somehow doesn't qualify as marketing as a CBM😂 If WB didn't want to market this as a CBM they wouldn't have called it Joker. They would have called it something like "Clown School" and instead of the Joker's face in JOKER make-up, it would be without his make-up. And instead of "Put on a Happy Face" as the tagline referencing the greatest CBM of all time, The Dark Knight, the tagline would be something like "This year, the punchline is anarchy."

Uh huh. Of course they are going to include Joker elements in the promotion, as that is the only way this movie will get any buzz. But promoting the Joker character and promoting the movie itself as a cbm are not one and the same. It's pretty damn obvious to me that they want the Joker buzz while selling the movie as a serious drama. You can believe differently but that's my take and my last post on this subject... for now. Lol

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48 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

Uh huh. Of course they are going to include Joker elements in the promotion, as that is the only way this movie will get any buzz. But promoting the Joker character and promoting the movie itself as a cbm are not one and the same. It's pretty damn obvious to me that they want the Joker buzz while selling the movie as a serious drama. You can believe differently but that's my take and my last post on this subject... for now. Lol

Again, where are you getting this nonsense from? It’s pretty clear they are selling a CBM as a CBM instead of whatever you think they are doing.

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People don't call this as a CBM movies because it is being Oscar-friendly, implying that CBM shouldn't have any Oscar connection.  

 

Yet, they are the same group of people complaining CBM movies aren't getting enough of recognition by Award bodies 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, BP was also campaigned as Not CBM. It isn't just fans, it's studios. They know that AMPAS gladly takes CBM paychecks but look the other way when it comes to nominations. So they play the game by marketing those movies to AMPAS as anything but CBM

 

That said, I don't think this will snag a nom cause enthusiasm for BP was diminishing the more it became clear nomination was inevitable. It missed director, it didn't manage to sneak any actor and it won only techs that it deserved to win but nothing beyond that (Song went to Gaga). So it's a sign to me that they nominated it because they were pressed and when you are pressed to do something that you don't really want that backfires on something that comes after. Joker won't get BP, IMO, and even Phoenix is iffy.

Edited by Valonqar
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8 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

Yeah, BP was also campaigned as Not CBM. It isn't just fans, it's studios. They know that AMPAS gladly takes CBM paychecks but look the other way when it comes to nominations. So they play the game by marketing those movies to AMPAS as anything but CBM

 

That said, I don't think this will snag a nom cause enthusiasm for BP was diminishing the more it became clear nomination was inevitable. It missed director, it didn't manage to sneak any actor and it won only techs that it deserved to win but nothing beyond that (Song went to Gaga). So it's a sign to me that they nominated it because they were pressed and when you are pressed to do something that you don't really want that backfires on something that comes after. Joker won't get BP, IMO, and even Phoenix is iffy.

This is a certainly different from the point I'm making but BP was nominated for all the reasons every other movie of its kind was nominated. It was a phenomenon in a similar way as something like Avatar. The reasons to nominate it were so overwhelming that not nominating it for multiple awards, including best picture, would have been a terrible look for the Academy. It was a very much an exception within the genre so if a movie like Joker isn't nominated it won't be because of any side effects from BP but because it ain't nothing special, to be frank. 

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Dont even know why we have such a discussion.

 

People see Joker and hear Gotham, but since the trailer looks so artsy, everyone is gonna be like "what kind of sick arthouse movie is this?" As opposed to "where the hell is batman" lol. 

 

I bet you a thousand dollar that is how WB is trying to sell this movie and expect people to react.

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We know the joker as a character can win serious awards, so that's not news. Much more surprising would be that anything with Todd Phillips' fingerprints on it could get that kind of traction. We'll see. 

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This is the dumbest conversation on this website. Possibly the internet.

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2 hours ago, Hatebox said:

Much more surprising would be that anything with Todd Phillips' fingerprints on it could get that kind of traction.

Eh, A Star Is Born was last year.

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