Classic Conversation Thread

[Barnack]

4 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

Canada universities are much more cautious to fire people over viewpoints. 

 

That sound a bit of an easy statement to made, there is a ridiculous high amount of university in the USA does any tenure teacher fired in an American university for that type of talk occured ?

 

I do not imagine it would be common in the over 4,000 college in the US for someone with that level of job protection to be fired for this.

 

Lindsay Shepherd was an graduate student and lost her teaching assistant gig, different than the Alberta tenure teacher (Jordan Peterson was never fired for example, because of how strong that job protection statue is in the anglo-saxon world).

[Lordmandeep]

22 minutes ago, Barnack said:

That sound a bit of an easy statement to made, there is a ridiculous high amount of university in the USA does any tenure teacher fired in an American university for that type of talk occured ?

 

I do not imagine it would be common in the over 4,000 college in the US for someone with that level of job protection to be fired for this.

 

Lindsay Shepherd was an graduate student and lost her teaching assistant gig, different than the Alberta tenure teacher (Jordan Peterson was never fired for example, because of how strong that job protection statue is in the anglo-saxon world).

yeah actually Peterson is still hired and paid by the University of Toronto even though he never taught a class there since 2017. 

 

but that whole shepherd case sort of put a huge pushback over punishing University workers for speech issues. Like when i was in university in the early 2010s, I felt Universities the least safest place to speak your mind about issues.

 

Cant imagine how different it has gotten in the time since. 

 

and before anyone suggest that what i had to say was likely racist or sexist anyways, it was merely having a more moderate point of view on topics. 

 

Like i remember one time we were debating why were most home related products (your decorative items, furniture and all that) advertised at women. Some said its because corporations want women to be domesticated but i just said its because women make most of the financial decisions in married couples according to stats so you appeal to people who are in control. some of the students in class where like ... 

 

 

😅

Edited June 10, 2020 by Lordmandeep

[JB33]

25 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

Believe it or not JB, Canadian universities are not as idiotic as some American universities have become on free speech issues. In your case the teacher was not fired: 

 

Mostly has to do with the 2017 Lindsay Shepard Scandal at Laurier University.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd

 

Canada universities are much more cautious to fire people over viewpoints. 

 

Where a TA sort of got the Spanish Inquisition against her for playing a Jordan Peterson interview that was a debate on state sponsored broadcast television (TV Ontario) when the class was about pronouns and communication.

 

She recorded the meeting and one prof said "the professor compared the Peterson clip to "neutrally playing a speech by Hitler"

 

The whole scandal caused a huge push-back against Universities in Canada firing people or going after people for sharing different viewpoints and have since cooled off a bit. 

 

I'm very familiar with the Lindsay Shepherd incident and have continued to follow her via True North. You're absolutely right that Canadian Universities don't have the reputation for intolerance that US Universities do. It was just frustrating to read about even a small example of it in the news today.

 

I was pretty impressed with the response to the Laurier thing. It feels like Conservative Canadians are more willing to speak up and fight back in comparison to the US. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by JB33

[Barnack]

2 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

but that whole shepherd case sort of put a huge pushback over punishing University workers for speech issues. 

You are certainly right for Ontario (and Alberta):

https://www.thespec.com/news/ontario/2019/01/07/free-speech-policies-now-in-effect-at-ontario-s-colleges-and-universities.html

 

Not sure it is true abroad Canada in general, for example:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-controversial-nova-scotia-professor-rick-mehta-fired-after-fire-storm/

[Lordmandeep]

5 minutes ago, Barnack said:

You are certainly right for Ontario (and Alberta):

https://www.thespec.com/news/ontario/2019/01/07/free-speech-policies-now-in-effect-at-ontario-s-colleges-and-universities.html

 

Not sure it is true abroad Canada in general, for example:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-controversial-nova-scotia-professor-rick-mehta-fired-after-fire-storm/

i heard it was more the Uni wanted to fire him for being a shitty prof and finally found an excuse lol....

 

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/8x7a74/professor-fired-over-free-speech-actually-fired-for-being-a-bad-professor

[Barnack]

10 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

i heard it was more the Uni wanted to fire him for being a shitty prof and finally found an excuse lol....

 

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/8x7a74/professor-fired-over-free-speech-actually-fired-for-being-a-bad-professor

Make sense, I doubt they could have achieved to do it without good reasons like those.

[MrGlass2]

 

[aabattery]

38 minutes ago, MrGlass2 said:

 

 

This is ten minutes up the road from me.

[AndyK]

Yay biological sex is now racist.

 

We finally went down the rabbit hole.

[Barnack]

9 minutes ago, AndyK said:

Yay biological sex is now racist.

 

Not sure how much the writer did choose the title (the article is not even attempting to demonstrate white suprematisme has to do in 2020)

 

It is a very weak correlation argument but Isn't white majority country tend to be by a good amount where transgender is the most accepted by society ?

https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/

 

In the USA for example:

Democrats’ views also differ by race and ethnicity. Some 55% of black Democrats and 41% of Hispanic Democrats say a person’s gender is determined by their sex assigned at birth, a view shared by just 24% of white Democrats.

 

White Democrats (68%) are also more likely to say that society hasn’t gone far enough in accepting transgender people, compared with 46% of black Democrats and 50% of Hispanic Democrats.

[Eric Duncan]

  

[lorddemaxus]

Lmao, Rowling's now also spreading dumb lies. She should do some research before saying shit like any man can get a certificate that says they are a woman (which isn't true).

[Barnack]

11 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

Lmao, Rowling's now also spreading dumb lies. She should do some research before saying shit like any man can get a certificate that says they are a woman (which isn't true).

That sound like a strawmen, she said:

A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.

 

Reading the rebutal to her claim, start with the word But:

https://variety.com/2020/biz/news/j-k-rowling-trans-issues-sexual-assault-survivor-1234630367/

But according to official government materials, applicants for the Gender Recognition Certificate must be 18 or over, diagnosed with gender dysphoria, lived in their “acquired gender for at least 2 years,” and “intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life.” Further, applicants “must provide medical evidence” of their gender dysphoria diagnosis from a registered doctor or psychologist.

 

But seem to say that she is perfectly right, there do not seem to have any condition that require transition surgery or transition hormonal treatment.

 

 

[lorddemaxus]

6 minutes ago, Barnack said:

That sound like a strawmen, she said:

A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.

 

Reading the rebutal to her claim, start with the word But:

https://variety.com/2020/biz/news/j-k-rowling-trans-issues-sexual-assault-survivor-1234630367/

But according to official government materials, applicants for the Gender Recognition Certificate must be 18 or over, diagnosed with gender dysphoria, lived in their “acquired gender for at least 2 years,” and “intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life.” Further, applicants “must provide medical evidence” of their gender dysphoria diagnosis from a registered doctor or psychologist.

 

But seem to say that she is perfectly right, there do not seem to have any condition that require transition surgery or transition hormonal treatment.

She said this:

 

She's literally saying anyone can say they feel like a woman and get the certificate which isn't true. You don't get diagnosed with gender dysphoria just because you say you feel like a woman. This doesn't make women more likely to get attacked by predators. These kinds of lies are just going to make even more women get paranoid of trans-women.

Edited June 10, 2020 by lorddemaxus

[Barnack]

Seem to different subject conflated, where would you need to present a certificate to enter a bathroom ?

[lorddemaxus]

4 minutes ago, Barnack said:

Seem to different subject conflated, where would you need to present a certificate to enter a bathroom ?

I mean I guess transwomen will have to show some sort of proof that they are a woman if they haven't transitioned yet.

[JB33]

2 hours ago, lorddemaxus said:

Lmao, Rowling's now also spreading dumb lies. She should do some research before saying shit like any man can get a certificate that says they are a woman (which isn't true).

Rowling will not be bullied. I respect her a ton.

[lorddemaxus]

19 minutes ago, JB33 said:

Rowling will not be bullied. I respect her a ton.

Since when is calling a liar a liar bullying?

[Eric Duncan]

 

[Webslinger]

Honestly, as a major trans ally, coming into this thread the last two days and seeing all this debate about the validity of trans people with a variety of bad faith arguments has been painful. I originally drafted a much longer statement about how trans rights are human rights and how all this debate over the validity of trans people or lionizing people who mock, belittle, or harass them as a matter of principle isn’t a good look for this place if we have any out trans users (I actually don’t know) or anyone who is trans but doesn’t disclose it (having had a friend who came out whom I never would have guessed was trans, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility). 
 

But instead, I’m going to end my involvement in this topic by just directly addressing any trans people who might be reading this post:

- I see you.

- I will stand in solidarity with you.

- I will listen to suggestions on how to be a better ally, and so will quite a few other posters here.

- You are valid.

- You are welcome.

- Your ability to live comfortably as yourself matters, and is not subject to others’ opinions.