Classic Conversation Thread

[lorddemaxus]

13 minutes ago, TMP said:

Even beyond that, he made a short film "empathizing" with the cop who shot Mike Brown, which is immensely more worrying than tweeting some edgy jokes from 2014

 

Reading more about that, it seems like WB can dodge that backlash because it was co-directed by a black person and WB could easily claim that its an artsy interpretive film where the cop is the bad guy. I'd say the choking is a bigger problem unless they got that handled (very odd that nothing has come out of the choking incident). 

Edited June 8, 2020 by lorddemaxus

[lorddemaxus]

 

[Lordmandeep]

The interesting aspects about the trans right debate is that science can't settle this issue.

 

I think we have started to reach a point where people have started to accept and treat trans people better.

 

However to reconstruct ideas around what sex and gender are fundamentally will take some time to many people who grew up on such ideas.

 

http://bostonreview.net/science-nature-gender-sexuality/anne-fausto-sterling-science-wont-settle-trans-rights

Edited June 8, 2020 by Lordmandeep

[Barnack]

38 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

The interesting aspects about the trans right debate is that science can't settle this issue.

Abortion, euthanasia, economics, gun rights, voting age, what territory should be a country, how to handle climate change, how to handle a pandemy there is about no mainstream debate that can be settle by science, this is not particular to this one.

 

38 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

However to reconstruct ideas around what sex and gender are fundamentally will take some time to many people who grew up on such ideas.

Even reconstructing ideas around sex and gender will not tend to close hard question debate (what to do with a young child, sports, etc...) that are far from being scientific questions.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Barnack

[Webslinger]

56 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

I think we have started to reach a point where people have started to accept and treat trans people better.

The comments section on literally any trans-themed story on any mainstream news site says otherwise.

[JB33]

2 hours ago, Lordmandeep said:

The interesting aspects about the trans right debate is that science can't settle this issue.

 

I think we have started to reach a point where people have started to accept and treat trans people better.

 

However to reconstruct ideas around what sex and gender are fundamentally will take some time to many people who grew up on such ideas.

 

http://bostonreview.net/science-nature-gender-sexuality/anne-fausto-sterling-science-wont-settle-trans-rights

I think people should be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe and move forward. What we need to fight is the persecution of gays, transgenders etc. What we don't need to focus one iota of energy or breath on is yelling and screaming at people who simply don't subscribe to some of these things and are otherwise minding their own business. However, we're living in a time when that isn't good enough. People MUST change their mind! It's highly similar to the lengths the catholic church used to go to in order to make everyone conform because it very much is a religious movement. This guy says it best in this short 3-tweet thread....

 

 

It starts with the culture on message boards like this.

Edited June 9, 2020 by JB33

[Eric Atreides]

Ah yes, the best way to stop persecution amongst LGBT folk is to let people express their disapproval of people living their lives. Not like those opinions contribute to the hateful persecution or anything.

[filmlover]

I just remembered that this time last year we had Legend Evans shutting down the people behind that Straight Pride "event" and Pitt threatening to sue the organizers for using his image for purely malicious purposes. We love iconic allies. @Cap

[MrGlass2]

54 minutes ago, JB33 said:

Numerous people in various media fields have told me this is the most oppressive political environment they have ever experienced. If they say anything that even deviates ever-so-marginally from consensus opinion, their livelihoods will be destroyed.

Trumbo at the House Un-American Activities Committee hearings in 1947:

 

[Webslinger]

16 minutes ago, Eric Atreides said:

Ah yes, the best way to stop persecution amongst LGBT folk is to let people express their disapproval of people living their lives. Not like those opinions contribute to the hateful persecution or anything.

Wish I could like this more than once! Say it louder for the people in the back.

[JB33]

2 hours ago, Eric Atreides said:

Ah yes, the best way to stop persecution amongst LGBT folk is to let people express their disapproval of people living their lives. Not like those opinions contribute to the hateful persecution or anything.

I never said disapproval of living their lives. I was talking about opinions and beliefs. I dont believe in the gender spectrum or transgenderism, but that doesnt mean I dont approve of them living their lives or that I'm going to persecute them. For others it does mean that, and yes we have to fight that. 

 

News flash: there will always be nasty people who do nasty things. We should never give up fighting those people but progressives should stop kidding themselves when they think we can build this world where everyone believes and thinks the same things.

 

I look at the backlash JK Rowling is receiving and I just shake my head. She is stating her views while being tolerant of and standing by those with others, yet it's still not enough. She's not saying anything wrong, yet folks are still looking for a fight!

[Eric Atreides]

53 minutes ago, JB33 said:

I never said disapproval of living their lives. I was talking about opinions and beliefs. I dont believe in the gender spectrum or transgenderism, but that doesnt mean I dont approve of them living their lives or that I'm going to persecute them. For others it does mean that, and yes we have to fight that. 

 

News flash: there will always be nasty people who do nasty things. We should never give up fighting those people but progressives should stop kidding themselves when they think we can build this world where everyone believes and thinks the same things.

 

I look at the backlash JK Rowling is receiving and I just shake my head. She is stating her views while being tolerant of and standing by those with others, yet it's still not enough. She's not saying anything wrong, yet folks are still looking for a fight!

Saying you "don't believe" in transgenderism is dehumanizing trans people, who go through countless obstacles and bigotry in order to live their lives. You may think that's tolerant, but you are still saying you don't believe transgenderism, and therefore trans people, don't exist. You're dehumanizing them, and that kind of dehumanization, no matter how small, feeds into the discrimination, abuse, and mistreatment trans people go through, whether you like it or not. And when it comes to one of the most popular and iconic authors of all time, with a massive global platform, if she complains about the inclusive term of "people who menstruate", then that's dehumanizing millions of trans people, and will contribute to the bigotry trans people face. So yeah, she is saying something wrong, whether she realizes it or not, because her transphobic language and behavior, even a simple tweet, will put trans people blood on her hands.

[JB33]

If I say that I've always felt I identify as a dog, does that mean that the whole world is now supposed to believe me and validate that?

 

I think where we differ here is I truly believe that we are somewhat able to combat the oppression while letting people have their own opinions. That's where I think the world is genuinely getting a little bit better; the blatant discrimination and acting on one's beliefs. We will never, ever get everyone to think and believe the same things though, and nor should we. If transgender people still feel invalidated even though they're not being attacked or discriminated against in any way, well there's nothing anyone can do about that (bear in mind I'm NOT saying we've achieved this yet, but I feel we're trending the right way, wouldn't you?). I mean, how do you think my mom - a devout Christian - feels when she tries to talk to non-believers about God and gets negative, blunt responses back? It sucks but she's also not being blatantly oppressed so there's nothing that can really be done about it.

 

The recent case with Rowling is just flat out over the top. Like, come on. "People who menstruate"? Good luck attacking every single person who rightfully takes issue with those kind of phrases. You'll be fighting that battle for the rest of your life because the whole population is NEVER going to conform to that kind of stuff.

Edited June 9, 2020 by JB33

[aabattery]

2 hours ago, JB33 said:

 

The recent case with Rowling is just flat out over the top. Like, come on. "People who menstruate"? Good luck attacking every single person who rightfully takes issue with those kind of phrases.

 

Honestly, it just seems like a more specific term for the specific issue they're talking about.

 

You could just say women, but that ignores the fact that not all women menstruate, either because they haven't hit puberty, they've hit menopause, they're on birth control or some other drug, or they have some other medical condition that prevents menstruation.

 

So you could say women who menstruate if you must insist upon disavowing the acknowledgement of transmen for whatever reason, but where does this leave intersex people who have a functioning uterus alongside a set of male genitals (or at least male appearing genitals)? Or what about people who have Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome (I'll fully admit I only just found out about this after a quick google) in which a, by all reasonable standards, biologically male fetus develops a womb and thus goes through the whole menstruation thing? Obviously these cases represent the minority, but they do exist and I don't really see why the extraordinarily tiny amount of effort it takes to change one word in a headline is worth "rightfully" taking issue with.

[Lordmandeep]

The issue is the following:

 

A lot of people don't like that gay people marry but still support gay people marrying. That is because you still have a personal belief that marriage to you is between a man and a women but others may have different ideas.(People like my dad ). (people call that being Gay neutral vs being gay positive i believe) 

 

The trans debate is different because to accept trans people properly would require people to fundamentally reshape their belief systems. The way you use language, the way you look at sex and gender. 

 

The issue is currently I think gender is fluid but sex is binary. Now that makes me way more tolerant then most people I know but to a trans right activist I am stuck in the past.

 

Now I am reevaluating that belief as I learn more about intersex people and such. 

 

Because the issue is this debate is based on fundamentally reconstructing ideas that you have been ingrained with for your entire life from your parents...the education system and society and culture.

 

A simple example is gender neutral language. Going from 25 years of using gender specific language to gender neutral language has taken some time but i have changed.

 

In comparison when it comes to gay marriage the only language to change is to stop saying hurtful mean words. You can still subscribe to old school beliefs around sex and gender and believe in homosexuality as well. 

 

However  in comparison even the most liberal minded people i know would still say "women who menstruate" today. 

 

I am not saying my viewpoints are correct but I am saying that this debate is quite complicated. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Lordmandeep

[Maggie]

4 hours ago, JB33 said:

If I say that I've always felt I identify as a dog, does that mean that the whole world is now supposed to believe me and validate that?

 

 

I agree with you. Plus, what about Rachel Dolezal? She identifies as black, which is wrong and the black community rightfully called her out.

[AndyK]

10 hours ago, Eric Atreides said:

Ah yes, the best way to stop persecution amongst LGBT folk is to let people express their disapproval of people living their lives. Not like those opinions contribute to the hateful persecution or anything.

If you shut people up, they will vote for people like Trump.

 

[Lordmandeep]

This is why education is important. 

 

Growing up the education system focused a lot on Homosexuality issues but just ignored Trans people. 

 

Now I notice people my age are very pro Gay Rights but seem confused about  trans rights.

 

However my younger cousins who are brought up with an education system that focuses on trans rights seem to fully understand trans issues. 

 

 

Imo a lot of the issue around Trans rights is more confusion and ignorance then plain hatred I think from many in society who are older (like 30+) 

[filmlover]

I'd say we have made progress on trans issues, especially with the rise of public figures like Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, etc. being embraced by the media. We still have work to do obviously, but there's light at the end of the tunnel.

 

As for JK, she's a mess but IMO that was clear from the sleep-inducing nonsense that was the second Fantastic Beasts movie. The Harry Potter universe would likely benefit from a completely fresh creative team behind it at this point, but she would probably have to completely give up the rights George Lucas style before that happened.

[Napoleon]

20 hours ago, grim22 said:

The Amber Heard-Johnny Depp case is still ongoing and i don't think they will be firing people based on leaks from one party as part of the case when the judge will listen to both sides and give his verdict. Depp was way too much bad-will as well right now. Not sure why the online mob has decided Heard is the bad person in all of this. 

 

If you are expecting Heard of Miller to be fired, you will have to wait for them to be pronounced guilty in a court of law, which may not happen with Heard and will not happen with Miller because there was no police complaint, let alone a case filed.

You know why people always believe the man, don't shy away from calling out sexism when you see it.