Classic Conversation Thread

[Lordmandeep]

1 hour ago, Napoleon said:

You know why people always believe the man, don't shy away from calling out sexism when you see it.

 

 

Or more its a backlash against women must be always right and the man always wrong aka simping logic that is the norm online. 

 

 

[JB33]

8 hours ago, aabattery said:

 

Honestly, it just seems like a more specific term for the specific issue they're talking about.

 

You could just say women, but that ignores the fact that not all women menstruate, either because they haven't hit puberty, they've hit menopause, they're on birth control or some other drug, or they have some other medical condition that prevents menstruation.

 

So you could say women who menstruate if you must insist upon disavowing the acknowledgement of transmen for whatever reason, but where does this leave intersex people who have a functioning uterus alongside a set of male genitals (or at least male appearing genitals)? Or what about people who have Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome (I'll fully admit I only just found out about this after a quick google) in which a, by all reasonable standards, biologically male fetus develops a womb and thus goes through the whole menstruation thing? Obviously these cases represent the minority, but they do exist and I don't really see why the extraordinarily tiny amount of effort it takes to change one word in a headline is worth "rightfully" taking issue with.

I personally don't take issue with the phrase so much as I do the backlash and hate Rowling has received.

 

Then you have things like this...

 

Unacceptable. This is going way too far. People should not be losing their jobs or kicked out of their positions for having their own beliefs.

[Porthos]

 

Definitely do not do this.  Hilarious, but don't do it.

 

(apparently he has a bunch of super confrontational videos like this on his YT page)

Edited June 9, 2020 by Porthos

[grim22]

What in the fuck

 

 

[aabattery]

3 hours ago, JB33 said:

I personally don't take issue with the phrase so much as I do the backlash and hate Rowling has received.

 

Then you have things like this...

 

Unacceptable. This is going way too far. People should not be losing their jobs or kicked out of their positions for having their own beliefs.

 

Reading up on it the situation there seems more nuanced than you're painting it here.

 

She didn't lose her job, she's still employed as an associate professor and I can't see anything to suggest that her ability to research or publish has been infringed. In general these types of roles don't actually garner you any extra pay; they just get you a release from some of your teaching responsibilities, so her bank account isn't going to be weeping. She has simply been removed from a service role as a Chair of Undergraduate programs. Obviously I'm not intimately familiar with how the University of Alberta's admin works, but to me that sounds like a role that would place her in direct contact with a lot of students, including trans-people (this is how it would work at my uni). If she was making students uncomfortable in that role, I don't see why it is outrageous to suggest that maybe she take a step back and focus on other areas of her job.

[Eric Atreides]

3 hours ago, grim22 said:

What in the fuck

 

 

 

[filmlover]

@TMP BDH and Papa Lindelof collab when?

 

 

 

[JB33]

36 minutes ago, aabattery said:

 

Reading up on it the situation there seems more nuanced than you're painting it here.

 

She didn't lose her job, she's still employed as an associate professor and I can't see anything to suggest that her ability to research or publish has been infringed. In general these types of roles don't actually garner you any extra pay; they just get you a release from some of your teaching responsibilities, so her bank account isn't going to be weeping. She has simply been removed from a service role as a Chair of Undergraduate programs. Obviously I'm not intimately familiar with how the University of Alberta's admin works, but to me that sounds like a role that would place her in direct contact with a lot of students, including trans-people (this is how it would work at my uni). If she was making students uncomfortable in that role, I don't see why it is outrageous to suggest that maybe she take a step back and focus on other areas of her job.

That's why I said "or kicked out of their positions". I read the article, she's not happy with it. It's also not as innocent as "hey maybe you should step back because students feel uncomfortable. That IS the situation, but it's not innocent. Other views often can make one uncomfortable, but they're just views. She made sure to tell the students that they dont have to see it her way at all. She's just clarifying her views. She also firmly believes the complaints didnt come from her students at all.

 

So she basically got shoved out of her role because some outside students "felt unsafe". This is a horrible precedent to set. What about if people feel uncomfortable with opposite views? That doesnt matter does it because only one way of thinking is allowed.

 

@Barnack you always have interesting things to say. What are your thoughts on this?

Edited June 9, 2020 by JB33

[aabattery]

37 minutes ago, JB33 said:

That's why I said "or kicked out of their positions". I read the article, she's not happy with it. It's also not as innocent as "hey maybe you should step back because students feel uncomfortable. That IS the situation, but it's not innocent. Other views often can make one uncomfortable, but they're just views. She made sure to tell the students that they dont have to see it her way at all. She's just clarifying her views. She also firmly believes the complaints didnt come from her students at all.

 

So she basically got shoved out of her role because some outside students "felt unsafe". This is a horrible precedent to set. What about if people feel uncomfortable with opposite views? That doesnt matter does it because only one way of thinking is allowed.

 

@Barnack you always have interesting things to say. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Not sure where you're getting the outside student angle; it explicitly says in the article that the complaints were informal and anonymous. She can claim that everyone in her classes like them, but she's not a mind-reader. Regardless, she's not losing her teaching position so the people who don't have an issue with her views can still go to those classes. She's just not going to be in the front-facing student service role, which honestly just makes sense; if you hired a receptionist at some imaginary business who kept pissing people off and was driving customers away, would you be inclined to keep them on? Except in this case, she's not even getting fired; they're just pulling her back from an administrative position where she was not able to fulfill her duties without pushing people away from the faculty. 

 

[JB33]

28 minutes ago, aabattery said:

 

Not sure where you're getting the outside student angle; it explicitly says in the article that the complaints were informal and anonymous. She can claim that everyone in her classes like them, but she's not a mind-reader. Regardless, she's not losing her teaching position so the people who don't have an issue with her views can still go to those classes. She's just not going to be in the front-facing student service role, which honestly just makes sense; if you hired a receptionist at some imaginary business who kept pissing people off and was driving customers away, would you be inclined to keep them on? Except in this case, she's not even getting fired; they're just pulling her back from an administrative position where she was not able to fulfill her duties without pushing people away from the faculty. 

 

No, she's not a mind-reader, but I think one can tell if your students are clearly opposed to or uncomfortable with your views you shared. Maybe not, who knows?

 

I get what you're saying. It makes sense for her superiors to do this on some level. What I'm protesting is the fragility of the students. It would be one thing if the professor was out right discriminatory, but that wasn't the case at all. Saying how you view sex and gender, especially from a biological and scientific standpoint, should not justify complaining to the dean and result in action being taken, whether she lost her job or just moved positions. 

 

In a nutshell, I'm saying that the intolerance is still there. It just switched sides. It's scary how fragile today's youth and young adults are, how easily they feel intimidated and unsafe. How much do you want to bet that whoever complained didn't have a dog in the fight at all?

[Porthos]

 

Quote

The ViacomCBS-owned cabler had removed the long-running show from its schedule in the wake of nationwide protests following the police-involved death of George Floyd on May 25. Now, the network says it's dropping the show altogether.

 

"Cops is not on the Paramount Network and we don’t have any current or future plans for it to return," a network spokesperson said. 

 

Paramount Network's forerunner, Spike TV, picked up Cops in 2013 after it ended a 25-season run on Fox. The series continued following the 2018 rebranding of the channel as Paramount Network; it also had syndication rights to many past seasons.

 

The show's 33rd season had been schedule to premiere on Monday, but no episode has aired on Paramount Network since at least June 1 as protests against police brutality and in support of the Black Lives Matter movement continued across the country.

Good.

[Barnack]

1 hour ago, JB33 said:

@Barnack you always have interesting things to say. What are your thoughts on this?

Know little about the situation, but at first I feel like the idea of safety concern (felt that the teacher point of view would motivate a follow anthropology student would attack them, really ?) is either a lie or a moral panic one that would be laugh at if a pro-life supporter said a teacher made them unsafe because of their view on abortion and should probably laugh at here as well. But then again having been in her class maybe it would be clearer.

 

But, the part saying that she had a sign on her office door explaining her views sound like her boss could have been looking for excuse to reprimand her for a while not for the content of her class but surrounding distraction creating activities, specially for the nature of the role she is getting out of.

[filmlover]

Cops was one of those shows that I knew was still being shown on TV but assumed was just showing reruns from 20+ years ago and not actually producing new episodes lol. Anyway, good riddance. 

[aabattery]

49 minutes ago, Barnack said:

Know little about the situation, but at first I feel like the idea of safety concern (felt that the teacher point of view would motivate a follow anthropology student would attack them, really ?) is either a lie or a moral panic one that would be laugh at if a pro-life supporter said a teacher made them unsafe because of their view on abortion and should probably laugh at here as well. But then again having been in her class maybe it would be clearer.

 

But, the part saying that she had a sign on her office door explaining her views sound like her boss could have been looking for excuse to reprimand her for a while not for the content of her class but surrounding distraction creating activities, specially for the nature of the role she is getting out of.

 

Well, for context here is the sign(s) on the door.

 

(it's blurry because the forums compression thing is shit but if you click on the image it should open in full-res in another tab).

 

Make of it what you will I guess. Personally I feel like chucking up contentious stuff like that on your door is not particularly considerate or professional and doesn't really foster any actual scientific debate. It's a 1-sided message from a person in a position of relative power. I don't think anyone is going to be physically hurt or put in any direct danger from this stuff, but with the increasing awareness of mental health and all that (esp. in relation to transgender people) I can see why the faculty would push back here as I really don't think this fosters a positive working environment.

 

I think it should also be worth noting that the article JB33 linked is basically only telling one side of the story; like I said, the situation is probably a lot more nuanced than either side would like it to be.

[dudalb]

1 hour ago, Barnack said:

Know little about the situation, but at first I feel like the idea of safety concern (felt that the teacher point of view would motivate a follow anthropology student would attack them, really ?) is either a lie or a moral panic one that would be laugh at if a pro-life supporter said a teacher made them unsafe because of their view on abortion and should probably laugh at here as well. But then again having been in her class maybe it would be clearer.

 

But, the part saying that she had a sign on her office door explaining her views sound like her boss could have been looking for excuse to reprimand her for a while not for the content of her class but surrounding distraction creating activities, specially for the nature of the role she is getting out of.

You also have the basic fact that if you do something, job related or not, that makes the company or instituion you work for look bad and hurts their image, your career is going to suffer.

[JB33]

6 minutes ago, dudalb said:

You also have the basic fact that if you do something, job related or not, that makes the company or instituion you work for look bad and hurts their image, your career is going to suffer.

What the person in question has done should not make the institution look bad. At all. That's the problem here. 

[aabattery]

8 minutes ago, JB33 said:

What the person in question has done should not make the institution look bad. At all. That's the problem here. 

 

That's your view. Other peoples views are different.

[Barnack]

19 minutes ago, dudalb said:

You also have the basic fact that if you do something, job related or not, that makes the company or instituion you work for look bad and hurts their image, your career is going to suffer.

Teniard in the university concept is supposed to be a good protection against that (I imagine that why she is keeping her teaching job)

[JB33]

6 minutes ago, aabattery said:

 

That's your view. Other peoples views are different.

Certainly.

 

Luckily, though, cooler heads sorta prevailed and she kept her job. 

[Lordmandeep]

1 hour ago, JB33 said:

Certainly.

 

Luckily, though, cooler heads sorta prevailed and she kept her job. 

Believe it or not JB, Canadian universities are not as idiotic as some American universities have become on free speech issues. In your case the teacher was not fired: 

 

Mostly has to do with the 2017 Lindsay Shepard Scandal at Laurier University.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd

 

Canada universities are much more cautious to fire people over viewpoints. 

 

Where a TA sort of got the Spanish Inquisition against her for playing a Jordan Peterson interview that was a debate on state sponsored broadcast television (TV Ontario) when the class was about pronouns and communication.

 

She recorded the meeting and one prof said "the professor compared the Peterson clip to "neutrally playing a speech by Hitler"

 

The whole scandal caused a huge push-back against Universities in Canada firing people or going after people for sharing different viewpoints and have since cooled off a bit. 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Lordmandeep