Classic Conversation Thread

[Eric Atreides]

4 minutes ago, JB33 said:

Let me ask you something, and I'm being serious just so you know.

 

If I felt for a long time I identified as something not human, would I be entitled to 100% acceptance? I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I mean, we apparently share more than 50% of our DNA with a banana - it's true, look it up - so it seems that one could just as easily identify as an animal as someone of the opposite sex.

Sure. Otherkin exist. They're not bothering anybody. No harm no foul

[Lordmandeep]

7 minutes ago, grim22 said:

 

Or you could, you know, shut the fuck up.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Lordmandeep

[filmlover]

7 minutes ago, JB33 said:

Let me ask you something, and I'm being serious just so you know.

 

If I felt for a long time I identified as something not human, would I be entitled to 100% acceptance? I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I mean, we apparently share more than 50% of our DNA with a banana - it's true, look it up - so it seems that one could just as easily identify as an animal as someone of the opposite sex.

If Scarlett Johansson can declare herself part tree and go on to get two Oscar nominations in the same year, I'm sure you'll be ok identifying yourself as part banana.

[Barnack]

9 minutes ago, Eric Atreides said:

Sure. Otherkin exist. They're not bothering anybody. No harm no foul

I imagine that is true because if they ever do start to bother people (ask for society to pay for something, ask for workspace to accommodate something, ask people to call them the something special, force veterinarian to commit medical act on them), etc..... I would imagine we will rapidly hear about it a lot of online money to do with the first few anecdotal case.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Barnack

[aabattery]

21 minutes ago, JB33 said:

Let me ask you something, and I'm being serious just so you know.

 

If I felt for a long time I identified as something not human, would I be entitled to 100% acceptance? I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I mean, we apparently share more than 50% of our DNA with a banana, so it seems that one could just as easily identify as an animal as someone of the opposite sex.

 

There is a world of difference between gender identity and identifying as an animal or plant or whatever. Evolution wise, we split from plants over 1.5 billion years ago. To use your dog example from the other day, we have been evolving apart from them for an odd ~60ish million years. I guess there could be an interesting debate about species identity if other hominids were still walking around with us, but as it stands there is only ones species on this planet that we can currently procreate with. The difference between that is uncomprehendingly immense in comparison to the differences between biological sexes.

 

The basic interpretation of biological sex is the whole XY and XX chromosome thing, but like all things in biology (and science in general) it is often more complicated than the binary we get taught in primary school, as the (objective) existence of intersex people can demonstrate. And even that can seem simple in comparison to how complex the workings of our brains are. I won't pretend to be an expert on the exact science of transgenderism and what not, but if someone who is in all ways biologically male can develop a uterus (this is a real thing that I mentioned the other day, Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome, look it up), is it not possible that someone who would appear to be biologically female could end up with a 'male' brain? Like I said, not an expert but I have enough familiarity with the field to recognise that that shit is much more complicated what most of us get taught.

 

I know it's hard to comprehend, but if you actually listen to the words and experiences of transgender people, I think you might find a little bit of empathy and understanding of their position.

[JB33]

9 minutes ago, filmlover said:

If Scarlett Johansson can declare herself part tree and go on to get two Oscar nominations in the same year, I'm sure you'll be ok identifying yourself as part banana.

She said she should be able to play a tree if she wanted to. I dont believe she was talking about actually identifying as one.

[Eric Atreides]

19 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

 

 

The thing is we agree on many things but  I am from Canada so we actual put our progressiveness into practice and just dont circle jerk about it on twitter and message forums to declare how much better we are then others and tell people they are not welcome here.

 

 

 

 

 

Like I believe prisoners have the right to vote, I been supporting Gay marriage since 2005, I support public healthcare for all, updated my views on trans rights after hearing from transpeople themselves and I am a son of an immigrant myself so I know what it is to experience racism first hand.

 

Like I dont go after SJW and progressives because I am the complete opposite and to the right. Its more they more often go off the deep end far to the left. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's very weird to me you think progressives just complain on Twitter. At least in the US, there are current protests and rallies across the country. Politicians like AOC and Rashida Tlaib have been trying to make their mark on a political system that has up until now largely been center-left or center-right. People have donated to causes, signed petitions, and put their money where their mouth is while rich celebrities just put out black squares. Not acting as if this is the majority, but the idea you are parroting on about how leftists and SJWs are just complaining on Twitter seems like a real stretch.

 

In fact, aren't you doing this right now? You claim to be better than the far left who do nothing but complain and circle jerk on Twitter and message boards, but are you that much better? When have you gone out to rallies? When have you tried to improve things in your community? You're going on about how progressive you are, yet it doesn't seem like you're doing much aside from posting about it on this forum.

[grim22]

13 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

 

 

Or you could, you know, shut the fuck up.

1 hour ago, MrPink said:

 

 

With all due respect, General, sir,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[filmlover]

Just now, JB33 said:

She said she should be able to play a tree if she wanted to. I dont believe she was talking about actually identifying as one.

I know that but it was still a funny quote since she also said she should play any animal. Her performance in The Jungle Book? That was the real ScarJo.

 

[JB33]

23 minutes ago, aabattery said:

 

There is a world of difference between gender identity and identifying as an animal or plant or whatever. Evolution wise, we split from plants over 1.5 billion years ago. To use your dog example from the other day, we have been evolving apart from them for an odd ~60ish million years. I guess there could be an interesting debate about species identity if other hominids were still walking around with us, but as it stands there is only ones species on this planet that we can currently procreate with. The difference between that is uncomprehendingly immense in comparison to the differences between biological sexes.

 

The basic interpretation of biological sex is the whole XY and XX chromosome thing, but like all things in biology (and science in general) it is often more complicated than the binary we get taught in primary school, as the (objective) existence of intersex people can demonstrate. And even that can seem simple in comparison to how complex the workings of our brains are. I won't pretend to be an expert on the exact science of transgenderism and what not, but if someone who is in all ways biologically male can develop a uterus (this is a real thing that I mentioned the other day, Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome, look it up), is it not possible that someone who would appear to be biologically female could end up with a 'male' brain? Like I said, not an expert but I have enough familiarity with the field to recognise that that shit is COMPLICATED.

 

I know it's hard to comprehend, but if you actually listen to the words and experiences of transgender people, I think you might find a little bit of empathy and understanding of their position.

I've read about the science of it and, admittedly, I found it a little difficult to understand (I'm not scientifically inclined in the slightest) but I pretty much got the gist of it. Thing is, there are a lot of anomalies in science. I look at it as the exception to the rule, rather than the rule. In a general sense, nature (or our creator, if you're inclined that way like me) doesnt make mistakes. If you're born with a penis, you're male. If you're born with a vagina, you're female. If your personality leans more to the opposite sex, then okay. Fine. Great! You're still what you're born as, though.

Edited June 15, 2020 by JB33

[Lordmandeep]

24 minutes ago, Eric Atreides said:

It's very weird to me you think progressives just complain on Twitter. At least in the US, there are current protests and rallies across the country. Politicians like AOC and Rashida Tlaib have been trying to make their mark on a political system that has up until now largely been center-left or center-right. People have donated to causes, signed petitions, and put their money where their mouth is while rich celebrities just put out black squares. Not acting as if this is the majority, but the idea you are parroting on about how leftists and SJWs are just complaining on Twitter seems like a real stretch.

 

In fact, aren't you doing this right now? You claim to be better than the far left who do nothing but complain and circle jerk on Twitter and message boards, but are you that much better? When have you gone out to rallies? When have you tried to improve things in your community? You're going on about how progressive you are, yet it doesn't seem like you're doing much aside from posting about it on this forum.

Well I am on here now, today I was at temple

 

 

Well its called being in a minority and then working in the community to improve their lives. That can being a part of the local temple and donating to it and volunteering at it which provides countless benefits to the community (we just opened the temple back on Friday). They run sports, teach classes and you bring in people to spread community centric messages on health (diabetes is a huge issue in the community and bring awareness to that). 

 

I am a member of Toastmasters that helps countless new immigrants with leadership and communication skills and just having a new social circle. I am a Canadian born Indian, so my experiences can really help reach out to some people who are new from India much better then some white guy for example. 

 

Sure I did not attend a BLM protest but that is because of social distancing, however I have many friends and family who are cops and we routinely have discussions (whatsapp) and I routinely ask some rather pointed questions about what is going on. Sure you may say "fuck them all, why even be friends with them they all pigs'....However my logic, is if you can change one cops point of view that is going somewhere and based on what i can see there is a change of thinking in the cops  I know...Its of course to late to people who suffer at the hands of cops.

 

I am for police reform but I dont really subscribe to the defund out of spite for police, disband and disarm group thinking.

 

The issue is the AOC and far left Twitter mob that defines most of progressive thinking these days assume that one does not subscribe to that exact viewpoint, one is seen as the same side of confederate flag waving Trump fans, and thats why I sort of just get annoyed at them. 

 

 

Progressives really have this bad habit at alienating people that likely mostly agree with them and considering how our society functions the more of us agree to a goal, the better the chances of fixing things. I think a perfect example was the Labour Party under Jeremy Cobyn in the UK. Poll showed people overwhelmingly supported his ideas but by god his supporters were a bunch of jackasses 😂

Edited June 15, 2020 by Lordmandeep

[JB33]

@Lordmandeep There's another issue at play here...

 

I won't speak for you but conservative Canadians are a little sensitive right now to say the least when you take into account the current liberal government. Among many other things, when you've got a PM - someone who is the polar opposite of Donald Trump on the political and social spectrum but very much the same kind of politician - admitting he admires "China's basic dictatorship" or lecturing white Canadians about how racist they are (with no facts or figures to back it up), yeah, we're going to be a little crabby.

 

I'm sick and tired of the social chasm that is developing because of progressives who claim they're doing good but are just causing more division. It's absolutely a political tool too, but that's a different discussion.

Edited June 15, 2020 by JB33

[Porthos]

That feeling when the Classic Conversation thread is more heated than the US Politics Thread downstairs.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Porthos

[RealLyre]

30 minutes ago, JB33 said:

I've read about the science of it and, admittedly, I found it a little difficult to understand (I'm not scientifically inclined in the slightest) but I pretty much got the gist of it. Thing is, there are a lot of anomalies in science. I look at it as the exception to the rule, rather than the rule. In a general sense, nature (or our creator, if you're inclined that way like me) doesnt make mistakes.

 

so your creator allows people to be born with disabilities & terminal diseases on purpose because he can? sounds like a cruel god to me that doesn't want people to be equal but he still wants to judge us "equally" for things that are out of our control

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by RealLyre

[filmlover]

3 minutes ago, Porthos said:

That feeling when the Classic Conversation thread is more heated than the US Politics Thread downstairs.

 

 

[Porthos]

1 minute ago, Porthos said:

That feeling when the Classic Conversation thread is more heated than the US Politics Thread downstairs.

 

Anyway, I was just coming here to post this:

 

 

 

as I felt it was more appropriate in the CC thread.

 

(where's the lie, though? )

 

 

[JB33]

2 minutes ago, RealLyre said:

 

so your creator allows people to be born with disabilities & terminal diseases on purpose because he can? sounds like a cruel god to me that doesn't want people to be equal but he still wants to judge us "equally" for things that are out of our control

 

 

 

I think all people are made unique and beautiful - such as men with feminine qualities and personality and vice versa - but I think we also have a system used to distinguish sex that has worked since the dawn of humanity and there's no reason to abandon it just because of a tiny, tiny fraction of people who represent an abnormality in science.

 

In other words, I have no issue with people expressing themselves, but that doesn't mean that we should be using anomalies in science to go "actually a man CAN be a woman if they've always felt like it", even if the science is there that points to them being more feminine in nature. They're still men. I believe that our knowledge as human beings is always evolving, yes, but that with certain things we're getting too arrogant thinking we're above nature. I find it repulsive that someone would actually change their anatomy to that of the opposite sex. That's screwing with nature, the same way climate alarmists say we're screwing with nature.

[filmlover]

10 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

Anyway, I was just coming here to post this:

 

 

 

as I felt it was more appropriate in the CC thread.

 

(where's the lie, though? )

 

 

Well, they are right. This country's fondness for gun culture is depressing.

 

[aabattery]

53 minutes ago, JB33 said:

I've read about the science of it and, admittedly, I found it a little difficult to understand (I'm not scientifically inclined in the slightest) but in pretty much got the of it. Thing is, there are a lot of anomalies in science. I look at it as the exception to the rule, rather than the rule. In a general sense, nature (or our creator, if you're inclined that way like me) doesnt make mistakes. If you're born with a penis, you're male. If you're born with a vagina, you're female. If your personality leans more to the opposite sex, then okay. Fine. Great! You're still what you're born as, though.

 

Personally, I don't think it's fair to brush a small but still significant minority of people as mere anomalies. They're real people with real experiences and real lives and should be recognised as such rather than pigeon holed into our current binary. I think the great thing about science is that it isn't a static thing; we can look at the evidence and existence of these fringe cases and expand our terminology and understanding to make room for them.

 

But I will say that it's hard to change the paradigm, and it can be hard to accept new things when they go against what we previously understood. It's true of almost every science I think; from my own field, (geology) there's a great example of it in the first proponent of the theory of plate tectonics, Alfred Wegener. Won't go into to much detail but when he first suggested it, the response was uniformly hostile. Guy was ridiculed for years, all the way up to his death in 1930. People were still denying it up into the 1960's. But the ball got rolling, and as people actually looked into it they found a lot of the ideas were supported by some pretty strong lines of evidence. These days we can even measure how fast the plates are moving, which is a far cry from the prior belief that they just stood still forever.

[Noctis]

52 minutes ago, JB33 said:

I've read about the science of it and, admittedly, I found it a little difficult to understand (I'm not scientifically inclined in the slightest) but I pretty much got the gist of it. Thing is, there are a lot of anomalies in science. I look at it as the exception to the rule, rather than the rule. In a general sense, nature (or our creator, if you're inclined that way like me) doesnt make mistakes. If you're born with a penis, you're male. If you're born with a vagina, you're female. If your personality leans more to the opposite sex, then okay. Fine. Great! You're still what you're born as, though.

You can't say mistakes aren't made. That's a ridiculously childish claim and the very opposite of the truth. You have children born every single minute around the world with horrific disabilities, compromised immune systems, cancer, STDs, neurological limitations, etc...

 

I don't believe blurring the line between sex and gender will ever work, not even by the left. But you ARE aware that some people are born with both a penis and vagina, right? Some are born with reduced development of their reproductive organs.

 

In general...that god doesn't make mistakes is not a valid argument whatsoever.