Classic Conversation Thread

[75Live]

can the Phillies trade every pitcher other than Nola, for a curve ball machine and a bag of balls?  

[4815162342]

35 minutes ago, Porthos said:

Also with that trade...

 

 

TRADE DEADLINE SEASON IS OFFICIALLY OPEN!!!!

 

@4815162342 @Plain Old Tele @TwoMisfits @tribefan695 @Webslinger @DAR @MrPink @Deep Wang @Jayhawk

 

Plus anyone else who escapes my memory at the moment.

 

METS must METS

[AniNate]

1 hour ago, Porthos said:

 

@tribefan695

 

===

 

Was it a great look?  I dunno, I suppose not.  Were people making waaaaaay too much of it?  Absolutely.

 

Not really a Bauer fan, but if chucking a baseball to the moon in frustration is what makes a GM decrease their asking price for him, that's a pretty poor GM.  Or rather I can see trying to use it as an execuse but when Cleveland says this:

 

 

 

I mean, there's not much else to say and the GM should go back to a reasonable offer.  He chucked a ball in frustration.  Whoop de do.

 

...

 

Besides, I was under the impression baseball wanted more colorful personalities in the game. 

I try to stay away from sports twitter, but personally I didn't think they were going to trade Bauer anyway. They need his relative dependability with Kluber and Carrasco out.

 

I fully admit that I like him because he wins games for us. He's a douchebag but he's our douchebag.

[Porthos]

6 minutes ago, 4815162342 said:

 

METS must METS

Mets didn't give up that much, apparently.

With how weak balanced the NL is outside of the Dodgers, I can see the case for making a move for next year.

 

I've been thinking for a while that people are driving too hard on the Must Tank Train.  If the Mets saw a way to improve their team next year, I can't laugh at them too much for taking their shot.

 

Better that than every last team tearing everything down in a mad chase for the first five picks in a draft.  After all, can't have twelve teams get the first three/four picks in the draft.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Porthos

[Porthos]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Mets might have gotten a steal here.

 

Neither player sent back is a Top 100 prospect.  Allegedly the #4 and #6 prospects in the Mets system (though mid-year is always difficult to judge due to being in flux and lists not being updated).  Was the top Mets pitching prospect, sure.  But the newish site Baseball Trade Values has Stroman at 28.1 with Kay at 3.8 and Richardson at 7.1.

 

Risk on both sides here (either prospect could blow up) but the trade really doesn't seem that bad on the Mets side from this outsider's perspective.

 

Also kinda think if that was the market for Stroman (which would throw the assumptions that site made out the window, BTW), MadBum ain't going anywhere.  Not unless Zaidi can pry more than that out of a deal.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Porthos

[4815162342]

37 minutes ago, Porthos said:

Mets didn't give up that much, apparently.

 

 

Not as much as you would think, but they still dealt their two best pitching prospects, and Stroman is only controlled through next year. And knowing the Mets if Stroman pitches well next year they won't put up the capital to sign him long term.

 

Trading for Stroman would make trading Thor nonsensical, since Thor has a higher ceiling and is controlled as long (or maybe an extra year?). Which means the Mets are gunning for 2020 playoffs I guess.

Edited July 28, 2019 by 4815162342

[MrPink]

1 minute ago, 4815162342 said:

 

Not as much as you would think, but they still dealt their two best pitching prospects, and Stroman is only controlled through next year.

 

Trading for Stroman would make trading Thor nonsensical, since Thor has a higher ceiling and is controlled as long (or maybe an extra year?). Which means the Mets are gunning for 2020 playoffs I guess.

 

Pete Alonso is good but he's not good enough to reverse the Mets fortunes

[75Live]

15 minutes until Shark Week!!  

[Porthos]

Just now, 4815162342 said:

 

Not as much as you would think, but they still dealt their two best pitching prospects, and Stroman is only controlled through next year.

 

Trading for Stroman would make trading Thor nonsensical, since Thor has a higher ceiling and is controlled as long (or maybe an extra year?). Which means the Mets are gunning for 2020 playoffs I guess.

Pretty much unless they get wowed.

 

But like I said, I kinda sorta like the deal.  I realize it's the Mets best pitching prospects (though again if they were 4 and 6/7 in the org as I understand it that also says something) so that is a fair amount of risk.

 

I suppose my overall stance is that too many fans and members of the media are converging on groupthink on The One Way to Build a Club.  And to me, the pendulum has swung too far in one direction.

 

It's like the whole essence of Moneyball is to exploit a market inefficiency, right?  For a long time, draft position and prospects were undervalued.  But now I think there is a pretty strong argument that they are getting overvalued, especially when it comes to prospects.  If you can improve the chances of having entertaining baseball next year* for a team (not even playoffs, just entertaining baseball) at a decent cost?

 

Well I'd wish more teams would start doing it.  Better for the league as a whole as well.  Just think that 4 super teams and 10 garbage teams with everyone else in a muddle in the middle is a bad state for the league.  If the Mets don't want to put themselves in the position of the bottom 10/15 in the league, I certainly ain't gonna criticize it.  Just the opposite, actually.

 

* Grant Brisbee wrote an excellent article for The Athletic on the value of having an entertaining team even if it doesn't win the World Series a few days back and I agree with every word of it.  I've long thought that the goal of a baseball season is to be entertained and that when a team wins enough to get deep into the postseason, that's just gravy.

[4815162342]

Just now, Porthos said:

Pretty much unless they get wowed.

 

But like I said, I kinda sorta like the deal.  I realize it's the Mets best pitching prospects (though again if they were 4 and 6/7 in the org as I understand it that also says something) so that is a fair amount of risk.

 

I suppose my overall stance is that too many fans and members of the media are converging on groupthink on The One Way to Build a Club.  And to me, the pendulum has swung too far in one direction.

 

It's like the whole essence of Moneyball is to exploit a market inefficiency, right?  For a long time, draft position and prospects were undervalued.  But now I think there is a pretty strong argument that they are getting overvalued, especially when it comes to prospects.  If you can improve the chances of having entertaining baseball next year* for a team (not even playoffs, just entertaining baseball) at a decent cost?

 

Well I'd wish more teams would start doing it.  Better for the league as a whole as well.  Just think that 4 super teams and 10 garbage teams with everyone else in a muddle in the middle is a bad state for the league.  If the Mets don't want to put themselves in the position of the bottom 10/15 in the league, I certainly ain't gonna criticize it.  Just the opposite, actually.

 

* Grant Brisbee wrote an excellent article for The Athletic on the value of having an entertaining team even if it doesn't win the World Series a few days back and I agree with every word of it.  I've long thought that the goal of a baseball season is to be entertained and that when a team wins enough to get deep into the postseason, that's just gravy.

 

 

But the trade just reinforces my frustration with the Phillies front office this season. I can understand not giving Corbin that extra year (which spurred him to sign with the Nats) though not even running at Keuchel in the offseason was weird, because they felt the young arms would step forward this year and we'd get solid unspectacular Arrietta. Well once June hit it should have been clear as day that they needed to get quality arms for the rotation. Whiffing on Keuchel again was so stupid, given how cheap the Braves got him, and the front office has been hinting at not going for a controllable arm at the deadline (I can understand not selling the farm for a rental this year).

 

And with Stroman going for not too much, if the Phillies wind up with nothing, my frustration will convert to anger.

[cannastop]

I hear that MoneyBall guy found a new thing a few years ago. apparently experienced baseball players are undervalued while prospects are overvalued. Ran the Oakland A's like that I guess.

[Porthos]

All the above being said, given the Giants are 2.5 out of the second wild card (and have come down to earth quite a bit on the offensive side of things), I won't be terrible put out if they sell as I do understand the rationale.  They're right at the go/no go line I set in my head for trading away pieces.

 

So if they have something of a fire sale, so be it.  But I also won't crucify Farhan Zaidi if he doesn't make major trades.  I'll just have to trust that he wasn't getting what he wanted in return.

 

...

 

Also his buying/selling patten all this year shows to me that he's not a huge believer in the Tank for Years to be Better Much Later philosophy, so that does grant him quite a bit of slack in my book no matter which way it goes.

[Porthos]

4 minutes ago, cannastop said:

I hear that MoneyBall guy found a new thing a few years ago. apparently experienced baseball players are undervalued while prospects are overvalued. Ran the Oakland A's like that I guess.

Yep.  That's how Billy Beane got Khris Davis on the cheap in a 'down year' for the A's only to turn around the very next year and charge into the playoffs with Davis providing a lot of the spark.

 

That's the other thing, IMO.  Too many teams are either focused on this year OR four/five years down the road.  Not enough folks look at next year with moves in mind.

[4815162342]

3 minutes ago, Porthos said:

All the above being said, given the Giants are 2.5 out of the second wild card (and have come down to earth quite a bit on the offensive side of things), I won't be terrible put out if they sell as I do understand the rationale.  They're right at the go/no go line I set in my head for trading away pieces.

 

So if they have something of a fire sale, so be it.  But I also won't crucify Farhan Zaidi if he doesn't make major trades.  I'll just have to trust that he wasn't getting what he wanted in return.

 

...

 

Also his buying/selling patten all this year shows to me that he's not a huge believer in the Tank for Years to be Better Much Later philosophy, so that does grant him quite a bit of slack in my book no matter which way it goes.

 

Honestly I can see standing pat or some minor reliever selling, to give the fans a good team.

 

But I had heard prior to the weekend that Zaidi was considering some buying, and THAT would have been asking for a faceplant

[cannastop]

6 minutes ago, Porthos said:

Yep.  That's how Billy Beane got Khris Davis on the cheap in a 'down year' for the A's only to turn around the very next year and charge into the playoffs with Davis providing a lot of the spark.

 

That's the other thing, IMO.  Too many teams are either focused on this year OR four/five years down the road.  Not enough folks look at next year with moves in mind.

Kind of pissed me off when I heard some baseball announcers (I forget who) dismiss him as "Brad Pitt down in Oakland". He does what he can, you know?

[Webslinger]

1 hour ago, Porthos said:

I've been thinking for a while that people are driving too hard on the Must Tank Train.  If the Mets saw a way to improve their team next year, I can't laugh at them too much for taking their shot.

 

Better that than every last team tearing everything down in a mad chase for the first five picks in a draft.  After all, can't have twelve teams get the first three/four picks in the draft.

That's what's been so frustrating about the Mariners' tank job this year. The way things have been going around the league, they could conceivably lose 100 games (give or take) and still land outside the top five picks in the draft. (Not that they've had any real luck with their high draft picks since A-Rod anyway, but still.) And in the meantime, they've fielded an incredibly boring team. At least their abysmal years in the 2000s had Ichiro and their early-'10s dog days had King Felix in his prime. But now? Nothing.

 

I'm kinda surprised the Mets dealt for Stroman, but it makes sense with the year of club control remaining. I didn't think Bauer was going to get dealt anyway, so the outburst today seems like a non-issue; besides, hasn't his status as a "competitor" always been known?

[Porthos]

1 minute ago, 4815162342 said:

 

Honestly I can see standing pat or some minor reliever selling, to give the fans a good team.

 

But I had heard prior to the weekend that Zaidi was considering some buying, and THAT would have been asking for a faceplant

Targeted buying.  Trading (possible multiple) reliever options for near-MLB ready players that could be plugged into this year's and next year's team.

 

Second base is a huge sink spot for the Giants right now, for instance, and even a decent 2B prospect could be a good upgrade.  

 

Now buying Thor or a player of his quality would be silly.  But Zaidi has been making moves to incrementally improve his team all year long and doing something along the lines I mentioned above wouldn't shock me hugely.

 

Neither would making minor league for minor league deals.  From what I've heard there is something of a loophole in the trading deadline that folks not on the 40 man roster can be traded for other folks not on the 40 man roster IF they weren't outrighted from the majors this year.  Or something like that.   The way Zaidi has been churning the minors for deals, won't surprise me one whit to see him continue dealing after the so-called trading deadline.  

 

If that's actually true, as I haven't found independent sourcing of that loophole.

[Porthos]

Found my independent sourcing:

 

Understanding The New Trade Deadline Rules (MLBTR)

 

Quote

There is one clear way in which teams can still acquire reinforcements in the event that a desperate need arises: dealing for players that are still playing on minors contracts. Rule 9(b)(4) sets forth a no-trade period for such players and says nothing about the trade deadline. There isn’t any language expressly stating that minor-league contracts can be moved in August, but the legal interpretation maxim expressio unius est exclusio alterius suggests that’s the intended result. That’s not the most promising source of talent for a contender — top prospects won’t likely be dealt under these circumstances and otherwise the talent level just won’t be elite — but this could well provide an avenue for necessary fill-in pieces.

Quote

Between the trade deadline and end of the World Series, MLB players cannot be traded but may be claimed off waivers just like the rest of the year. Players on minor-league contracts can be traded as normal, but MLB contracts that have passed through outright waivers cannot be swapped. The commissioner is empowered to strike down any creative attempts to bypass the rules.

 

Can absolutely see more creative front offices out there testing this strategy out this August.

[cannastop]

Watched Kiki's Delivery Service. This song, as they say, slaps.

 

Kind of a 50s style rock-sort of, song? Shame they removed it in the original Disney dub, before they came to their senses in 2010.

 

[Avatree]

5 minutes ago, cannastop said:

Watched Kiki's Delivery Service. This song, as they say, slaps.

 

Kind of a 50s style rock-sort of, song? Shame they removed it in the original Disney dub, before they came to their senses in 2010.

 

 

sounds a lot like the locomotion with to me........ Lol.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Avatree