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Weekend Actuals (Page 80) | Black Panther 111.7M | Game Night 17M | Peter Rabbit 12.8M | Annihilation 11.1M | Fifty Shades Freed 7.1M | Jumanji 5.7M

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18 minutes ago, LaughingEvans said:

 

What I mean by cookie cutter is that they're not ground-breaking in terms of artistic merit. Best ground-breaking feat that Cameron has is a technical one, and that turns out to be a fad as it's becoming less and less popular, rather than taking over the industry.

 

 

I think putting down Cameron's stuff before AVATAR as without artistic merit is a road I can't travel with you on. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Rebeccas said:

Movies that cost $200m don't really have the ability to be truly subversive though. It's usually a pretty cut and dry argument (military industrial complex - bad, imperialism - bad, greedy businessmen - bad, trees/nature - good) when you have that much money at stake.

Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier and Black Panther go far beyond that though.

 

Iron Man 3 is a scathing criticism of the War on Terror suggesting the US government and the military industrial complex are often complicit. (Which echoed Iron Man 1)

 

Winter Soldier predicted the infiltration of neofascism into the US government. It also suggests our security measures could be used against all Americans who reasonably dissent.

 

Black Panther? I can't do the movie justice but I suggest you watch a recent YouTube video from Wisecrack called "Is Killmonger MCU's best villain" or something. I can't post it cause it has heavy spoilers.

 

 

 

 

Edited by grey ghost
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Just now, Deja23 said:

I think they do a better attempt at it than most superhero movies, but yeah, I agree with your overall point. They can’t escape from the 3rd act fist fight, which is fine since one of the reasons fans like them is for how comic book-y they are. Don’t blame them for sticking with what pleases the fans. 

That's why the ones I generally like best don't aspire to being anything more than fun romps with, at the most, basic broad themes like teamwork (The Avengers, GOTG1), fatherhood (GOTG2), etc. Tackling more serious themes is fine but you gotta walk the walk. I don't think something like TDK is incredibly deep either but at least Nolan is free from having to shoehorn references to Superman or whoever in dialogue and stick Batman into a 30-minute CGI-heavy extravaganza of a climax. 

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6 minutes ago, RRA said:

I think putting down Cameron's stuff before AVATAR as without artistic merit is a road I can't travel with you on. 

 

 

They have artistic merit but they're not that deep or layered.

 

For the most part the message and themes are pretty cut and dry.

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Just now, RRA said:

I never said they're "deep" films. Then again some people think deep=art and no, not really. 

Avatar did a super great job in visualize its idea, it is a visual-driven film, and that is what film is mainly about. 

 

A great story is the main component, but film is more layered by sound/visual art.

 

My point, avatar may not serve good in story but avatar is not a book, if everyone is demanding a great/brilliant story solely, then what is the purpose of the existence of film? Why not just read the book/screenplay, which deliver the experience through word....  

 

great Film is about how a great story being visualize through every single visual/audio frame.....

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Themes in Marvel movies is just salad dressing. They are far more interested in other things than actually diving into the complexity of the issues they are raising.

 

Great movies feel like they are built around what they’re saying while the Marvel ones feel like they already have their premolded pieces in place long before deciding what it wants to be about, as if they are just filling in the gaps.

Edited by Goffe
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15 minutes ago, grey ghost said:

Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier and Black Panther go far beyond that though.

 

Iron Man 3 is a scathing criticism of the War on Terror suggesting the US government and the military industrial complex are often complicit. (Which echoed Iron Man 1)

 

Winter Soldier predicted the infiltration of neofascism into the US government. It also says the security measures could be used against all Americans who reasonably dissent.

 

Black Panther? I can't do the movie justice but I suggest you watch a recent YouTube video from Wisecrack called "Is Killmonger MCU's best villain" or something. I can't post it cause it has heavy spoilers.

 

 

Right, but I think they package them in a way that's easily digestible for the masses. As they should.. you can't reasonably spend $200m and make a movie that alienates too many people.

 

And this is true for almost every blockbuster with TDK maybe being the most challenging of the big budget films. The prime example of paying lip service but not really doing any substantial with it is JK "Dumbledore gay all along but you can't see it!" Rowling. Not that you have to make some grand political statement to make a good movie. There's not much nuance to LOTR's villains other than they're evil lol.

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34 minutes ago, grey ghost said:

To expand on this...

 

Iron Man trilogy: Military Industrial Complex critique

 

Captain America trilogy: Freedom vs Security debate

 

Thor Ragnarok: Immigration debate

 

Black Panther: Imperialism and Black Nationalism dissected.

 

 

I would also throw in GOTGv2 regarding toxic masculinity. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Deja23 said:

I think they do a better attempt at it than most superhero movies, but yeah, I agree with your overall point. They can’t escape from the 3rd act fist fight, which is fine since one of the reasons fans like them is for how comic book-y they are. Don’t blame them for sticking with what pleases the fans. 

It's why I admired the ending of DR STRANGE which avoided the 3rd act fist fight climax (using wits to outsmart a more powerful force) unlike every superhero movie last year and BLACK PANTHER. Hell even WONDER WOMAN (not made by Marvel) fell into that trap, and its 3rd act is the biggest criticism thrown against it asides from a limpwrist villain. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, grey ghost said:

They have artistic merit but they're not that deep or layered.

 

For the most part the message and themes are pretty cut and dry.

None of the MCU movies are 'deep' either, their messages are pretty damn clear

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2 minutes ago, Rebeccas said:

Right, but I think they package them in a way that's easily digestible for the masses. As they should.. you can't reasonably spend $200m and make a movie that alienates too many people.

 

And this is true for almost every blockbuster with TDK maybe being the most challenging of the big budget films. The prime example of paying lip service but not really doing any substantial with it is JK "Dumbledore gay all along but you can't see it!" Rowling.

How is TDK harder to digest than Iron Man 3?

 

TDK is pretty basic...

 

Person is given a moral choice by the Joker that proves good people don't really exist. Followed by an action sequence.

 

Props for the masterful execution and the tacked on yet prophetic NSA critique but I think you guys are adding depth that isn't really there.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jessie said:

None of the MCU movies are 'deep' either, their messages are pretty damn clear

I think my description of Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier and BP are pretty powerful and important themes especially when you look at the implications in modern US history.

 

Just because you guys weren't looking for this stuff doesn't mean it's not in there.

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People forget that movies are built for escapism and entertainment, not to deliver political messages, thats just optional icing on the cake. Besides, avatars message is far more important than any message Marvels movies have offered.

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1 hour ago, LaughingEvans said:

Can Cameron fans stop acting like they're Fellini fans? With a few exceptions, that are not Titanic or Avatar, Cameron is as cookie cutter as the MCU.

 

 

Where was Fellini ever mentioned? Furthermore, where do you think we are? This isn't an art house theory forum, it's the box office theory forum. You know, that thing that James Cameron is the (double) King of? 

 

And if Cameron's work is so 'cookie cutter' why has no one been able to emulate his success? 

 

To those that talk about Cameron's films not having any 'depth' either, the man is objectively the film maker who has the most claim to depth over anyone else on the planet. 

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4 minutes ago, Jessie said:

None of the MCU movies are 'deep' either, their messages are pretty damn clear

MCU aren't deep, but their message are clear, they are not trying to be a deep film, they will rather make a satisfying yet ordinary simple film to get money secured , instead of trying to be deep yet collapsed like BvS.

 

It is all about their approach in getting money, being money bait, get over it...

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Just now, grey ghost said:

I think my description of Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier and BP are pretty powerful and important themes especially when you look at the implications in modern US history.

 

Just because you guys weren't looking for this stuff doesn't mean it's not in there.

I never said it wasnt there, i just said it wasnt deep. They basically spell it out to you. Rarely are blockbusters 'deep'

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1 minute ago, grey ghost said:

Look I admit I didn't notice Thor Ragnarok's immigration subtex but once people explained it to me I can openly admit it was there all along.

The prisoners with jobs line had me laughing

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