Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings | Marvel Studios | 92% RT & 99% VA Score | ONLY IN THEATERS Sep 3 2021

[Lion Roar]

1 hour ago, imbruglia said:

‘Shang-Chi’ doesn’t resist racist tropes. It just repackages them.

If “Shang-Chi” breaks any ground, though, it won’t be for the quality and nuance of how it represents Asians or Asian Americans, but for the simple fact of that representation. The movie is an Orientalist fantasia that presents the same old tropes in slightly updated, somewhat self-aware, very expensive packaging.

 

....

 

 

Our inclusion in this comic book saga, banking hundreds of millions with each installment is, for many, enough. It’s not enough for me. I’m sorry. I’m not grateful for Shang Chi, because I’m not grateful for scraps from the table anymore.

 

I want a seat at the table.

 

I want the table.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/shang-chi-orientalist-fantasy/

 

great read.

It's too bad that he felt this was a racist fantasy because it certainly didn't feel that way to me or any of my Asian friends and family. Not sure how it's a Orientalist fantasy when Wuxia is literally one of the most popular genres in Chinese culture and has been for over half a century. Obviously Shangchi has a seat at the table, they already said as much in the mid credit scene. I guess some people want to take the most cynical view on everything and get angry about every step towards progress that's made because Shangchi somehow wasn't magically made the leader of the Avengers at his first outing. 

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

1 hour ago, imbruglia said:

‘Shang-Chi’ doesn’t resist racist tropes. It just repackages them.

If “Shang-Chi” breaks any ground, though, it won’t be for the quality and nuance of how it represents Asians or Asian Americans, but for the simple fact of that representation. The movie is an Orientalist fantasia that presents the same old tropes in slightly updated, somewhat self-aware, very expensive packaging.

 

....

 

 

Our inclusion in this comic book saga, banking hundreds of millions with each installment is, for many, enough. It’s not enough for me. I’m sorry. I’m not grateful for Shang Chi, because I’m not grateful for scraps from the table anymore.

 

I want a seat at the table.

 

I want the table.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/shang-chi-orientalist-fantasy/

 

great read.

 

 

Conclusion-led hogwash that mostly is just a barrage of fallacy by omission:

 

- Complains about not representing contemporary Asia, ignoring the whole sequence in Macau. Complains about Asia being represented as static, despite the timbre of the end credits sequence specifically manifesting change.

- Pretends that it is in some way unique that the Asian character's father is mythical in nature (y'know, like half the other superheroes) or there is an implied family secret (y'know, like 90% of the other superheroes)

- Literally pulls out a fully strawmanned quote ("who are you *really*") in order to stretch to a point.

- Complains tenuously about 'exotic cliches' when the material is clearly drawn and inspired by Chinese history - just in a non-literal manner suitable for a contemporary audience - which presumably is what Walter wants because otherwise it sure would be hypocritical to complain elsewhere about Asia being represented as static and unchanging.

- I mean let's be clear about this: one paragraph Walter is complaining about this piece supposedly misrepresenting Asia as static and unchanging, and then spends a paragraph moaning about how they've changed the mythic creatures from their fourth century origins.

- "When you're a White superhero in the MCU, you get to have an origin story that doesn't involve ancient Chinese secrets". No, it involves ancient Scandinavian secrets instead.

- Establishing Katy is an underachiever isn't character progression apparently, it's an Asian stereotype.

- A character from an immigrant background speaking multiple languages isn't a signifier of intelligence, just of a mixed background. Literally any polyglot or person from a mixed background knows this and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. 

 

- And finally, as already stated by the poster above the film could not more specifically establish that the character is "at the table". 

 

There's good criticism to be had of representing cultures in film, including this one. There's certainly good criticism to be discussed of the impossibility of representing Asian-ness in general and the very concept being somewhat deluded. There's plenty good criticism to be had in discussing how international film will always struggle with the fundamental differentiation of "Asian-American" from "Asian".

 

But this isn't any of those things. It's bad, conclusion-led journalism mostly made up of a Gish gallop.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Ipickthiswhiterose

[RRA]

Clickbait “hot take” table for 1.

[Fox20]

There is a forced narrative on Hollywood that Shang Chi is going to be banned from Avengers movies and shit because it has no China release date... Like it's like they don't know Feige, let alone when he gave a huge budget and full praise to Chloe after her China problems.

[tonytr87]

1 hour ago, Fox20 said:

There is a forced narrative on Hollywood that Shang Chi is going to be banned from Avengers movies and shit because it has no China release date... Like it's like they don't know Feige, let alone when he gave a huge budget and full praise to Chloe after her China problems.

 

Yeah, Feige doesn't give a fuck about that noise. The executives above him might though. 

[JWR]

Anyways, when do you see this crossing the $200M DOM mark?

[35MM-18]

5 minutes ago, JWR said:

Anyways, when do you see this crossing the $200M DOM mark?

Maybe next week.

[JWR]

3 minutes ago, 35MM-18 said:

Maybe next week.

 

You think so?

[Legion Again]

Nah, probably Oct

[Menor the Destroyer]

The claim in that article that a "dragon mother" would have no problem with Katy's job because of her degree does not make sense to me. At least from Chinese-American friends I have, their parents seem to be a lot more concerned with them getting a high-paying job than with their degree. In fact, I would think it would make the mom more mad, since Katy has credentials to get a better-paying job and instead works as a valet. 

[Fox20]

51 minutes ago, tonytr87 said:

 

Yeah, Feige doesn't give a fuck about that noise. The executives above him might though. 

They do, but the reality is that Shang Chi or Simu did not cause the uproar Hollywood is selling on China lately, he is not "banned" or something like that... Yet, so they are just jumping the gun and trying to blame not having release date entirely on Simu, when no Disney movie has gotten one outside Free Guy.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Fox20

[KC7]

From the stupid clickbait Washington Post article:

 

"None of this, of course, plays back in New York City, when, at the end of the movie, Shaun and his best friend Katy (Awkwafina) try to tell their skeptical “modern” friends about how they saved the world."

 

Presumably he means back in San Francisco, since he notes earlier they're from San Francisco and that's where they would have returned to, no? Or maybe he was confused since Wong takes them through the portal to Strange's place in NYC after that. Either way, it makes him sound like someone who wasn't really paying attention to the movie, so why would his opinion on it be of any interest?

[tonytr87]

1 hour ago, Fox20 said:

They do, but the reality is that Shang Chi or Simu did not cause the uproar Hollywood is selling on China lately, he is not "banned" or something like that... Yet, so they are just jumping the gun and trying to blame not having release date entirely on Simu, when no Disney movie has gotten one outside Free Guy.

 

 

 

Wait, who is blaming him? I'm out of the loop on recent updates I guess. 

[Fox20]

29 minutes ago, tonytr87 said:

 

Wait, who is blaming him? I'm out of the loop on recent updates I guess. 

Pretty much evey "journalist" in Hollywood is blaming Simu for Shang Chi not having a release date because an old interview where he talks about his parents experience on China and many people already talking about the  "solutions" like cutting Shang Chi from Avengers movie so they can be released on China or sending Shang Chi to Disney+ and things like that.

[Arian1010]

19 hours ago, Fox20 said:

Pretty much evey "journalist" in Hollywood is blaming Simu for Shang Chi not having a release date because an old interview where he talks about his parents experience on China and many people already talking about the  "solutions" like cutting Shang Chi from Avengers movie so they can be released on China or sending Shang Chi to Disney+ and things like that.

 

Meanwhile, on Weibo, the newest trending article today criticized another aspect of Marvel's casting choice, they said Marvel's real purpose was to secretly insult China because they chose an immigrant with Canadian citizenship to play the hero while the pure Chinese actor play the villain (Wenwu). They said Simu's case was like the banana metaphor (yellow on the outside, white on the inside), he can't even speak standard Chinese very well. The commentators agreed that Marvel should have cast a local  Chinese actor to play SC instead. Now it's more like C-netizens are criticizing Marvel themselves, not Simu since he's just an employee who got hired to do the job.

Personally, I don't entirely agree with them because it's obvious that they haven't watched the film (

Spoiler

e.g. SC didn't simply kill Wenwu, they had a complicated family relationship, both sides had the right reasons to fight and we could debate that Wenwu was actually a very tragic hero, he was just trying to save his wife. From a certain pov he wasn't a mere shallow villain)

. And  I'm pretty sure that Marvel can  easily cast a local young  Chinese actor to play a variant of Shang Chi since they're in the multiverse phase.

 

[Fox20]

42 minutes ago, Arian1010 said:

 

Meanwhile, on Weibo, the newest trending article today criticized another aspect of Marvel's casting choice, they said Marvel's real purpose was to secretly insult China because they chose an immigrant with Canadian citizenship to play the hero while the pure Chinese actor play the villain (Wenwu). They said Simu's case was like the banana metaphor (yellow on the outside, white on the inside), he can't even speak standard Chinese very well. The commentators agreed that Marvel should have cast a local  Chinese actor to play SC instead. Now it's more like C-netizens are criticizing Marvel themselves, not Simu since he's just an employee who got hired to do the job.

Personally, I don't entirely agree with them because it's obvious that they haven't watched the film (e.g. SC didn't simply kill Wenwu, they had a complicated family relationship, both sides had the right reasons to fight and we could debate that Wenwu was actually a very tragic hero, he was just trying to save his wife. From a certain pov he wasn't a mere shallow villain). And  I'm pretty sure that Marvel can  easily cast a local young  Chinese actor to play a variant of Shang Chi since they're in the multiverse phase.

 

I'm not surprised at all...But at least this is coming from China, the hollywood articles are just people assuming without quoting anything.

 

But hey the moment Feige agrees to "recast" Shang Chi because people that have not seen the movie got mad, he will literally become the man he fought so hard to get rid of, Perlmutter.

 

What are they going to do with Eternals? recast Chloe lol? cut Phastos from the movie because he is gay? time travel so Chloe never talked?

Edited September 16, 2021 by Fox20

[Arian1010]

3 hours ago, Fox20 said:

I'm not surprised at all...But at least this is coming from China, the hollywood articles are just people assuming without quoting anything.

 

But hey the moment Feige agrees to "recast" Shang Chi because people that have not seen the movie got mad, he will literally become the man he fought so hard to get rid of, Perlmutter.

 

What are they going to do with Eternals? recast Chloe lol? cut Phastos from the movie because he is gay? time travel so Chloe never talked?

 

Technically, Marvel's multiverse has a big advantage, it's not a "recast" when all variants exist together peacefully, like 3 spidermen in NWH, or Loki co-operated with his other variants and also fell in love with his female Loki variant, etc...

I find it's so strange Shang Chi has to face so many obstacles mostly come from netizens' prejudice and made-up scenarios. I get that SC's old school comic had racist elements, and so did Black Panther's old comic with how Marvel exploited African tribal wars for fun while African people were working on unity, but has the black community ever considered trying to kill BP movie and judge the film even without seeing it?

The funniest part is Turandot film just got greenlit today in the mainland even tho Dylan Sprouse and  Sophie Marceau are outrightly being racist toward Chinese people (like this https://i.imgur.com/uBrPEoZ.jpg ). I don't know how the censorship system works anymore.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Arian1010

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

It wouldn't surprise me if Feige is already preparing, and indeed possibly has already prepared, for a post-China era in terms of releasing movies.

 

For all the click baiters have accused Shang-Chi of playing to the Chinese government, as many have pointed out it is abundantly obvious through the casting of Liu and the tone of the film that this was an Asian-American film first and foremost, a general East Asian film second and a 'Chinese film' last. Add to that his steadfastness about Chloe Zhao and with the supernatural/horror/Mephisto-laden aspects of Marvel on the horizon which stand lower chance of Chinese release anyway it seems as though if the chips *have* to fall in one direction, it will be on the direction of simply not making films with a Chinese release in mind - or rather always assuming that the decisions on Chinese releases will be arbitrary and based on momentary contextual politics that are beyond the control of a studio.

 

I suspect there's no chance of Simu being recast, or even of current plans changing in any way. Although it's certainly possible a mainland Chinese actor takes on a major protagonist role very soon. But it's hard to tell anything from the Hollywood articles and writers that are so lacking in self-awareness of the bubbles they reside in that they were genuinely surprised and confused when Crazy Rich Asians wasn't successful in Asia.

[exomassey]

Kevin Feige did that interview for China and answered questions that the Chinese audience might have an issue with. 

 

Marvel clearly care about the Chinese market and don’t want to lose it. They probably made Shang Chi because they thought it might take off in China. However I don’t see them making any changes to accommodate that market in the near future. Simu is gaining in popularity, Zhao is an Oscar winning director. Even introducing Variants doesn’t take away that Simu is THE Shang Chi.

 

The Marvel box office average might drop considerably for a while but imo they haven’t done anything wrong here.
 

Joker made a billion without China, maybe Marvel should focus their attention on markets they are not as popular in and forget about China.

[TigerPaw]

7 hours ago, Arian1010 said:

 

 

 

Not quoting your entire post; maybe you should add a spoiler tag to your sentences earlier. Cheers.