***SPOILERS***Captain Marvel Spoiler Thread | ***WARNING SPOILERS ALLOWED***WARNING SPOILERS ALLOWED***WARNING SPOILERS ALLOWED***

[Macleod]

1 hour ago, andersonhoran said:

I wonder if these people here complaining about the script really saw the same movie as I did? because it has one of the most unique script on the genre. The Skrulls plot was beautiful and emotional, dealing with an theme as refugees, something never approached before in a comic book movie. The non-linear script was also refreshing, making the audience embark on the journey along with Carol discovering who she is. The direction of the movie made it clear for me that they were focusing more on the emotional side of the story and they're really good at it.

Agreed, the Skrull material here and even Lashanna Lynch's character were all more emotionally moving than anything Carol Danvers goes through...and all props to Taika Watiti, but these elements are more affecting and memorable (at least to me) than that conceit in Ragnorok. On the other hand, what Waititi accomplished with Hulk in that film (both doing something new but also tying it to his previous trauma) was for me, the most memorable part of *that* movie. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Macleod

[Valonqar]

Unique? The Skrull twist is a standard Star trek rerun episode twist. Federation is called in to help Aliens X against Aliens Y. turns out, Aliens X displaced poor ugly Aliens Y and Feds fell for it cause Aliens X look very similar to humans so they instantly related. Feds threaten Aliens X and give supplies and new home to Aliens Y. Rinse repeat.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Valonqar

[Macleod]

1 minute ago, Valonqar said:

Unique? The Skrull twist is a standard Star trek rerun episode twist. Federation is called in to help Aliens X against Aliens Y. turns out, Aliens X displaced poor ugly Aliens Y and Feds fall for it cause Aliens X look very similar to humans so they instantly related. Feds threaten Aliens X and give supplies and new home to Aliens Y. Rinse repeat.

 

 

But you can't claim that most Marvel fans were expecting this kind of narrative, based on previously-existing knowledge of the Skrulls...and also the way in which the movie has been marketed to the general audience surely positions the Skrulls as the threat that needs to be taken care of.  So it is relatively creative within that context and within the genre recently, I'd argue.

[MyMovieCanBeatUpYourMovie]

FILM CRIT HULK, who is, IMO, one of the best writers on film out there (seriously, if you want to read great and incredibly long-ass essays, look his stuff up -- some MCU examples: Avengers , Guardians essays) has some thoughts on perhaps why some people are having some issues with Brie Larson:

 

 

Larson's incredible. But one of the worst things to saddle a character with is "i don't know my past," because you remove all motivation and psychology and make it all seem like affectation until past clicks into place. I think that's what is irking people.

— FILM CRIT HULK (@FilmCritHULK) March 8, 2019

Some of his other thoughts:

Random CAPTAIN MARVEL thoughts!
-Larson works tirelessly to make so many random moments work
-finally these movies let sam jackson have fun!
-they also let mendelsohn have fun!
-once it gets going, the story actually has good perspective shifts
Still...

— FILM CRIT HULK (@FilmCritHULK) March 8, 2019

-good granola should carol and maria's story have been made text, like, oof
-my god are there are two bad needle drops
-One big story thing. Whenever I end up working on something, we spend forever talking about the first 17 pages...

— FILM CRIT HULK (@FilmCritHULK) March 8, 2019

Not because you're trying to wow the audience or "grab their attention," but because they're so important in terms of what you communicate to the audience in terms of setting up the rest of the film. CM (and a lot of other marvel movies) understands implicitly that...

— FILM CRIT HULK (@FilmCritHULK) March 8, 2019

they need to give audience the certain information. But they've never have any idea how to really dramatize it, and create compelling immediate motivations, nor get into the real psychology of a character (something phase one movies were actually quite good at).

— FILM CRIT HULK (@FilmCritHULK) March 8, 2019

They just sort of present parameters that are simply meant to be filled in. I'd be more specific, but I don't want to spoil. But once one thing happens in this film it's like the movie finally "starts."

— FILM CRIT HULK (@FilmCritHULK) March 8, 2019

 

I'm sure the moment he's talking about in the last tweet is when she finds out she was kidnapped and brainwashed, and I do feel like that's the most potent scene emotionally in the film, and also the moment when Larson finally gets to start playing an actual character.

I really hope the Russo brothers found a way to spotlight CM in Endgame the way they did Doctor Strange in Infinity War.  Both the character and the actress have so much potential, I think, to really blow audiences away going forward.

[justvision]

2 hours ago, Daxtreme said:

 

That's a great point. The reason why the No Man Land scene in Wonder Woman works so well is because the movie takes its time to build it up. Shows us the horrors of war.

 

And then she gets up there and it's great, it feels deserved, it feels right. 

 

In this movie Captain Marvel just gets stronger and stronger and there is no real build-up to it that feels deserved. Her friends were in danger okay but the scene was directed awkwardly and we don't really feel the tension. it's like they were afraid to put some real danger in there.

 

But especially, they were afraid to bring down Carol to a level where we see her true vulnerabilities, like... not just on the surface.

As many would agree, CM in Endgame may likely gain more traction than in her solo movie because of Russo Bros. I posted the following a few times in this forum already. Still worth repeating because (1) the concern that Russo Bros foresaw is even more genuine now that CM the movie is out; (2) I have some thought of how Russo Bros are going to actually implement this:

Quote

"It's always a concern of ours about overpowering characters, because the reason that people relate to these characters is their humanity, and that they’re flawed," said Joe Russo. "... So we're all acutely aware of the dangers of having an overly powerful character. We like sensitive storytelling, so we found a thoughtful way through it."

 

"That's what kind of fires us up on a storytelling level," added Anthony Russo. "Because when you do have powerful characters, you have to work that much harder to find their vulnerabilities and complexities. Joe was mentioning on a storytelling level… and keep the stakes high! Because that’s where those characters are vulnerable. And actually, that makes for great drama, and you run in that direction. As storytellers, that's been one of the most fun things we've had working with these characters is figuring out ways into them where they are vulnerable and they aren't all powerful."

How will she fail and be made vulnerable? We know from CM mid credit scene she meets the Avengers quite early in Endgame. I think she would then tell them to go the "kick names, take ass" way of confronting Thanos. As opposed to those ignorant saying that CM will kickass Thanos, according to comicbook, Thanos without any Infinty Stone actually beats CM easily. In MCU we are not sure how CM vs Thanos without Infinity Stones will play out yet.

 

But Thanos in MCU now has all 6 Infinity Stones. CM got her power from a powered device that harnessed power from Tessaract which contained Space Stone. Thanos will learn that CM's power has the same "energy signature" (like Wanda's powers and Mind Stone) as Space Stone, and after beating CM (with or without using the Stones), he will proceed to draw out the powers from CM using Space Stone. Thor and others may rescue her before her powers is totally drawn out, but she will be severely underpowered for most part of the movie.

 

The plot draws (pun intended) inspiration from comicbook where Rogue absorbs the superpowers of Ms Marvel Carol Danvers.

Edited March 9, 2019 by justvision

[Valonqar]

1 hour ago, Macleod said:

But you can't claim that most Marvel fans were expecting this kind of narrative, based on previously-existing knowledge of the Skrulls...and also the way in which the movie has been marketed to the general audience surely positions the Skrulls as the threat that needs to be taken care of.  So it is relatively creative within that context and within the genre recently, I'd argue.

just because formulaic marvel never used the overused trope it doesn't make the movie unique. CM's values lie exclusively with the cast and their chemistry, definitely not with the basic af story and direction. the movie isn't an abomination or anything close, it's just super basic, bland and lifeless thanks to the helmers. I hope that Marvel retires them and hires one of ladies that were in the mix for BW or drop truckload of money at Greta Gerwig's doorstep. Too bad that Mao Tse is wasting her talent on Eternals, she'd be great since everyone who saw Riding say it's the best movie of 2018. 

[TMP]

3 hours ago, andersonhoran said:

I wonder if these people here complaining about the script really saw the same movie as I did? because it has one of the most unique script on the genre. The Skrulls plot was beautiful and emotional, dealing with an theme as refugees, something never approached before in a comic book movie. The non-linear script was also refreshing, making the audience embark on the journey along with Carol discovering who she is. The direction of the movie made it clear for me that they were focusing more on the emotional side of the story and they're really good at it.

It's really not that unique. It's probably one of the more boilerplate scripts in the MCU thus far. Giving lip service to serious issues like the refugee crisis and actually examining them are two completely different thing, and the film's script seems more interested in needlessly adding more plot machinations and very obviously telegraphed twists than actually exploring the characters. Scenes have emotional pay-offs that were either set-up poorly or not even set-up at all.

Mendo is good though.

[terrestrial]

1 hour ago, MyMovieCanBeatUpYourMovie said:

and also the moment when Larson finally gets to start playing an actual character.

6 Years no natural development after a 're-start' with daily-training and against-type-in-doctrine.

That is not a finished, fully 3-dimensional/complex adult and experienced being.

Nearly all of her is held back, gets brainwashed to dimmer. The Kree wanted something like a robot.

To me its there she played that too (plus the spikes of her not being under 100% under control). But as you said, from that moment on...

 

I really do not know why ppl are complain e.g. about that part up to the realisation.

 

3 hours ago, andersonhoran said:

Well, in Ragnarok they had their planet destroyed, yeah they became homeless in the end but it's different from being harassed all over the planet like the Skrulls.

100% agree

 

In Thor they have to get through the shock now, find a home, get back a feeling of security they not even feel to the fullest yet. Aftermaths of something big and bad, but in comparison still short-timed.

 

The Skrull live since ages in fear, get hunted, are on another way without a true hope / goal, w/o to know where to live. They are on a complete other level / mindset than the remaining Asgardians

Edited March 9, 2019 by terrestrial

[raulbalarezo]

 

[ZattMurdock]

RE: My theory that Mar-Vell is Carol's true mother:

 

I haven't been following Carol in the comics closely so I didn't know that recently she got a new origin that is sort of what I think they are going for here:

 

https://www.newsarama.com/42369-captain-marvel-gets-a-new-origin-in-life-of-captain-marvel-4-spoilers.html

[SofNascimento]

1 hour ago, MyMovieCanBeatUpYourMovie said:

FILM CRIT HULK, who is, IMO, one of the best writers on film out there (seriously, if you want to read great and incredibly long-ass essays, look his stuff up -- some MCU examples: Avengers , Guardians essays) has some thoughts on perhaps why some people are having some issues with Brie Larson:

 

 

Some of his other thoughts:

 

 

I'm sure the moment he's talking about in the last tweet is when she finds out she was kidnapped and brainwashed, and I do feel like that's the most potent scene emotionally in the film, and also the moment when Larson finally gets to start playing an actual character.

 

I really hope the Russo brothers found a way to spotlight CM in Endgame the way they did Doctor Strange in Infinity War.  Both the character and the actress have so much potential, I think, to really blow audiences away going forward.

I really like him but this time I disagree. Or at least that's not why I disliked Larson's performance. She just felt... childish?

[Valonqar]

I really hope they aren't going in that direction. We already have a half-human Quill who managed to sustain the power of the McGuffin thanks to his alien genes. Explaining that Carol absorbed the McGuffin blast thanks to being Mar-vell's secret daughter would be a bad rehash. also, considering that she and Mar-vell had no relationship whatsoever (flashbacks of petting Mar-vell's cat, and watching Mar-vell die + exposition that Mar-vell/Lawson thought Carol was special =/= relationship) better leave it at that.  Next movie doesn't need more convoluted mysteries and reveals but a good story that gives Brie to show her full range. I think she's perfectly cast and Russo's will prove me right.

 

@SofNascimento I loved her child-like reactions to discovering what she can do with her powers and thought those were some of better moments in the movie.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Valonqar

[andersonhoran]

2 hours ago, Valonqar said:

Unique? The Skrull twist is a standard Star trek rerun episode twist. Federation is called in to help Aliens X against Aliens Y. turns out, Aliens X displaced poor ugly Aliens Y and Feds fell for it cause Aliens X look very similar to humans so they instantly related. Feds threaten Aliens X and give supplies and new home to Aliens Y. Rinse repeat.

 

 

I specifically mentioned it's in the genre. 

[lorddemaxus]

2 hours ago, MyMovieCanBeatUpYourMovie said:

 

I was going to post this actually since it pretty much explains most people's problems with the movie. The story never makes us understand the psychology of the characters. My two favourite films, GOTG 2 and Black Panther (but with Killmonger) actually used the story as a vehicle to understand the characters even further. They are more character studies. I would say the same with Captain America and maybe Iron Man and Thor Ragnarok. Or in the DC side of things, Wonder Woman works because the story is all about her love and her femininity destroying the evil in men.

Edited March 9, 2019 by lorddemaxus

[terrestrial]

A film editor tweeted this

 

As some say she is always so cold and stoic...

 

 

[Darth Lehnsherr]

Part of why Captain America: The First Avenger works despite some flaws in the 2nd half is we get to see Steve Rogers before the serum. We know that what makes him special isn't the serum but his character and we are shown not told that. 

 

I understand that they felt they had to change up the origin structure for Captain Marvel but in doing so robs Brie Larson the opportunity the show why Carol is strong and powerful even without the powers she is given. There's a bit too much telling and not showing in this film to completely nail the character down.

[Valonqar]

10 minutes ago, andersonhoran said:

I specifically mentioned it's in the genre. 

we'll never agree that that overdone trope is unique in any genre. 

 

@terrestrial well, they are wrong about cold cause she's not. stoic is part of being a soldier so no problem. if she was a complete doofus like that idiot Finn from TFA/TLJ it would be WTF. but stoic is simply part of the training and military culture. it is not wrong. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Valonqar

[terrestrial]

3 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

My two favourite films, GOTG 2 and Black Panther (but with Killmonger) a

all the second appearances. Or 3rd.

Even WW. Has also another starting point, incl they do not have to explain the Amazons in general nor the Antics similar culture. Only the finer points of this version

In BP lots of more time between 1st appearance and main movie, but also within BP

 

I see MCUs more as movie 1 / intro = act 1 or act 1.5

[andersonhoran]

3 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

we'll never agree that that overdone trope is unique in any genre. 

Well, it depends the way you develops it, and for me it was beautiful done in the movie. 

[terrestrial]

4 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

they are wrong about cold cause she's not. stoic is part of being a soldier so no problem. ... but stoic is simply part of the training and military culture. it is not wrong. 

It was specificly criticised her being stoic in the beginning (film beginning: she gets hasseld for showing / having emotions) and ... leaves it stoic. Among others by a top critic.

In my POV she is it during 'need to be a professional' moments, yes like a soldier (her with the kree she is a soldier, at home she is air force - other kind of spirit....).

I am pretty sure if a soldier in another movie is stoic during an assignemst critics would say he shows behavior not matching the situation.