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Posted (edited)

Well, at least the Russos are making clear their views in their interviews (from the L.A. Times story linked earlier):

 

OK, be honest: Do you guys understand everything about how time travel works as explained in the movie or are there still loopholes even for you?

 

AR: In the movie, the Hulk is very explicit about what our rules are, which is you cannot change the present by altering the past. All you can do by going to the past — and for a character like Cap[tain America], living in the past — is create an alternate future. So this is a world in which alternate timelines exist.

Edited by MyMovieCanBeatUpYourMovie
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9 minutes ago, I Am said:

Lord have mercy. With the slight possible exception of the 2012 branch, the rest of the of the branches are destroyed. Wiped out. Gone. Trimmed. That's why 2014 Thanos and his army can be pulled into 2023, die, and not affect the main timeline and most importantly, that timeline not have any negative effects associated with such a significant event change. When they had arrived in 2023, that timeline had already diverged, because of the removal of the an Infinity Stone. When the Stone is returned, that branch longer exists.

 

The Ancient One and Bruce are very clear this is how the film's rules work.

 

You COMPLETELY misinterpreted what she said. The "branches" are only wiped out if NOTHING CHANGES in that timeline when they return the stones. The 2014 timeline without Thanos? STILL EXISTS! And is dramatically different than the main timeline now.

 

The 2012 timeline with Loki? STILL EXISTS! Because Loki escaped. Hell, even if he didn't, you could argue it would still change as Cap fought himself and Tony had a heart attack.

 

And now the Peggy timline STILL EXISTS, because Cap went back and stayed back.

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6 minutes ago, TalismanRing said:

OK, be honest: Do you guys understand everything about how time travel works as explained in the movie or are there still loopholes even for you?

 

 

AR: In the movie, the Hulk is very explicit about what our rules are, which is you cannot change the present by altering the past. All you can do by going to the past — and for a character like Cap[tain America], living in the past — is create an alternate future. So this is a world in which alternate timelines exist.

 

 

Was it difficult presenting a theory of time travel that hadn’t previously been explored onscreen?

 

 

AR: “Back to the Future” is one of our favorite films, and the rules of that movie are ubiquitous; they have informed pop culture for 40 years. And we wanted to do something different. We didn't realize how complicated it would be to create new rules and have people go with us, but we learned very early on in the test screenings that people are really committed to those “Back to the Future” rules — if you shoot yourself, you should die. We spoke with a few physicists, and there’s a lot of theories about how time travel could work. We chose the multiverse theory.

Since Loki vanishes with the Tesseract, could he still be alive in the new timeline or would Cap returning the stones undo that?

AR: Loki could absolutely still be alive in an alternate timeline.

 

 

 

That actually doesn't make it clear that Cap did live in an alternate timeline. It says that's what would mean for a character like Cap. The thing is, it's a character like Cap in possession of the six infinity stones, and one of them with powers that we don't really know how it works. What we know: to retrieve it, you have to sacrifice the one you love. What happens when you give it back, tho? Is it a coincidence that Cap would have to face Red Skull - who reportedly is free to look out for the infinity stones himself - in order to return the soul stone to its correct moment in the timeline and it just happens to get to come back to the love of his life? I don't think so. Facing Red Skull one last time before riding into the sunset - even if off screen - it's just something that screams Captain America.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Lehnsherr said:

Tbf though that show seems to change its rules of time travel every season

 

Eh, they just stopped discussing alternate timelines after Barry had like 50 of them. This season they should be talking about them more, since they created a new one with XS. But I'm fine with us just assuming the alternate timelines exist.

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4 minutes ago, ChipMunky said:

 

You COMPLETELY misinterpreted what she said. The "branches" are only wiped out if NOTHING CHANGES in that timeline when they return the stones. The 2014 timeline without Thanos? STILL EXISTS! And is dramatically different than the main timeline now.

 

The 2012 timeline with Loki? STILL EXISTS! Because Loki escaped. Hell, even if he didn't, you could argue it would still change as Cap fought himself and Tony had a heart attack.

 

And now the Peggy timline STILL EXISTS, because Cap went back and stayed back.

The interview with the Russos seals this.  They state explicitly how this works, and it's the way you describe it.  The alternate timelines exist and @I Am needs to let it be.

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7 minutes ago, MyMovieCanBeatUpYourMovie said:

Well, at least the Russos are making clear their views in their interviews (from the L.A. Times story linked earlier):

 

OK, be honest: Do you guys understand everything about how time travel works as explained in the movie or are there still loopholes even for you?

 

AR: In the movie, the Hulk is very explicit about what our rules are, which is you cannot change the present by altering the past. All you can do by going to the past — and for a character like Cap[tain America], living in the past — is create an alternate future. So this is a world in which alternate timelines exist.

Again, I'm not sure how clever they are with the way that they are wording this. They aren't saying that Cap lived in an alternate future. They say that's what would mean to him. The thing is, what about the soul stone, it's powers and how they are linked to "the one you love"? If you have to sacrifice the one you love for it, what happens if you do the reverse of that? Is it just a coincidence that Cap returns the stone and gets back to the one he loves? If Cap was the one to return the stones and if when returning the soul stone he got to go back, wouldn't that make him returning to Peggy eventually be the truth of our timeline all along, just like a Thanos from 2014 getting killed in 2023?

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1 minute ago, ZattMurdock said:

Again, I'm not sure how clever they are with the way that they are wording this. They aren't saying that Cap lived in an alternate future. They say that's what would mean to him. The thing is, what about the soul stone, it's powers and how they are linked to "the one you love"? If you have to sacrifice the one you love for it, what happens if you do the reverse of that? Is it just a coincidence that Cap returns the stone and gets back to the one he loves? If Cap was the one to return the stones and if when returning the soul stone he got to go back, wouldn't that make him returning to Peggy eventually be the truth of our timeline all along, just like a Thanos from 2014 getting killed in 2023?

 

Yes but you would then have to believe he returned the Soul Stone last, which I doubt. 

 

Look, we don't really know, and probably never will, what happened to Cap when he went back to return the stones. But even if the Soul Stone was the last one he returned, and it let him go back to live with Peggy... that's still an alternate timeline. As, again, if he was still in the main timeline, he would have to have stayed out of everything in history, behind the scenes, not changing anything.

 

And like you've said... that's not Cap.

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Maybe I'll make a drawing? graph? spreadsheet? of what I think the timelines are.

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Cap grows old with Peggy in an alternate timeline. This is abundantly clear from the movie itself+basic logic, direct confirmation from the writers, and direct confirmation from the directors. 

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2 minutes ago, Thanos Legion said:

Cap grows old with Peggy in an alternate timeline. This is abundantly clear from the movie itself+basic logic, direct confirmation from the writers, and direct confirmation from the directors. 

I wonder what happens when the Cap from that timeline emerges from the ice...

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Just now, langer said:

I wonder what happens when the Cap from that timeline emerges from the ice...

I am also very curious about how that timeline unfolds, given the “two Caps” situation.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, ChipMunky said:

 

Yes but you would then have to believe he returned the Soul Stone last, which I doubt. 

 

Look, we don't really know, and probably never will, what happened to Cap when he went back to return the stones. But even if the Soul Stone was the last one he returned, and it let him go back to live with Peggy... that's still an alternate timeline. As, again, if he was still in the main timeline, he would have to have stayed out of everything in history, behind the scenes, not changing anything.

 

And like you've said... that's not Cap.

It makes sense to me from a storytelling perspective that the last one would be the soul stone. The order they got the stones in the narrative of the film are: mind stone, reality stone, power stone, space stone and soul stone. Cap would know that maybe he wouldn't even be able to comeback from Vormir, given that now they know what happened with Nat. There's a too good of a story here for they to not explore eventually somehow, and I do adhere to @I Am theory that Cap understood that in order to protect the main timeline, the one where all his friends and loved ones live in, the one that the daughter of his fallen friend lives in, he needs to give up control and let things unfold in a way that Tony does sacrifice himself, but allows the world to move on. A future that protects the daughter of the man that was obviously his friend of existing. This alone is good reason enough for Cap not messing with the timeline.

 

I agree with you that maybe Cap is the soul stone holder now, after defeating Red Skull - who the Russos explicitly said that is free after someone getting the soul stone. I'm still hopeful we will see this story to be told soon rather than later.

Edited by ZattMurdock

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But then that doesn't make sense with anything either of you have said. You talk about time and again what type of person Cap is, etc etc etc, and yet he is just going to get married to Peggy, and live his life in the shadows? I'm sure he's aware that if he stays back with her, it will just create an alternate timeline, and have no effect on his main timeline.

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I know Steve got to have his happy ending and all. But imagine having experienced all the technological advancements, progressive societal changes of the 21st century; and then having to go back to the 70s where none of that happened yet. That just sucks. 

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Few things: 

- Don't know if it's been discussed here but a scene on the soul world (similar to Thanos-Gamora in IW) with Tony and Nat or Hulk and Nat telling her that they won would have been nice and a good way to tell her goodbye.

- That Avengers Assemble scene is going to be remembered as one of the greatest moments in cinema.

- I liked the all woman scene but it was really weird without Natasha. 

- Fantastic endings for Cap and Tony 

- I had a hard time understanding the time travel theory on my first viewing but totally got it and made a lot of sense on my second viewing, lots of possibilities for future MCU shows. They can be in the MCU but not necessarily linked to the main timeline (Loki Disney+ streaming show is likely going to be on that 2012 timeline), genius. 

- Everyone at my screening was confused about Iron Man 3 kid showing up, it also took me 20 seconds to realize who he was. A kid behind me shouted "Who the fuck is that?"

- Loved the signatures of the original six in the credits, gonna miss them so much, some people clapped except for Hawkeye one, but I was there to compensate for my man. 

- New main six gonna be Cap Marvel, Black Panther, Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, Ant-Man and The Wasp?. Personally I would love this line up 

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4 minutes ago, ChipMunky said:

But then that doesn't make sense with anything either of you have said. You talk about time and again what type of person Cap is, etc etc etc, and yet he is just going to get married to Peggy, and live his life in the shadows? I'm sure he's aware that if he stays back with her, it will just create an alternate timeline, and have no effect on his main timeline.

Unless... The soul stone grants you with the power of understanding the soul / lineage of people somehow? Remember how Red Skull seemed to know the heritage of the contenders for the stone? What if the soul stone grants some kind of knowledge to Steve, basically telling him that in fact, he NEEDS to go back because that's precisely what happened on HIS timeline? Just like Thanos dying again in 2023 is what happens in his timeline, he going back was bound to happen.

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10 minutes ago, Sam said:

I know Steve got to have his happy ending and all. But imagine having experienced all the technological advancements, progressive societal changes of the 21st century; and then having to go back to the 70s where none of that happened yet. That just sucks. 

He went back further than that, those cars on the street outside the house they're dancing in are from the 1940s.

 

Heck he may have gone back to before his fight with Red Skull so he didn't have to go into the ice - or he may have given his location since he now knows where he ends up.  So in that timeline there is no Capsicle.  He could have even gone back a few days earlier and kept Bucky from becoming a one armed menace to society.  Steve is a master  strategist - I'm sure he had a plan.  That's what the song says any way.

 

 

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This spoiler talk is awesome but at the same time it hurts my head. I feel like I need to see it another couple more times so that I'm not just soaking in the movie but actually ready to break it down.

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9 minutes ago, AN9815 said:

Few things: 

- Don't know if it's been discussed here but a scene on the soul world (similar to Thanos-Gamora in IW) with Tony and Nat or Hulk and Nat telling her that they won would have been nice and a good way to tell her goodbye.

- That Avengers Assemble scene is going to be remembered as one of the greatest moments in cinema.

- I liked the all woman scene but it was really weird without Natasha. 

- Fantastic endings for Cap and Tony 

- I had a hard time understanding the time travel theory on my first viewing but totally got it and made a lot of sense on my second viewing, lots of possibilities for future MCU shows. They can be in the MCU but not necessarily linked to the main timeline (Loki Disney+ streaming show is likely going to be on that 2012 timeline), genius. 

- Everyone at my screening was confused about Iron Man 3 kid showing up, it also took me 20 seconds to realize who he was. A kid behind me shouted "Who the fuck is that?"

- Loved the signatures of the original six in the credits, gonna miss them so much, some people clapped except for Hawkeye one, but I was there to compensate for my man. 

- New main six gonna be Cap Marvel, Black Panther, Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, Ant-Man and The Wasp?. Personally I would love this line up 

The zoom in on Harley confused a lot of people lol (even my boyfriend and my sister who I bullied into watching all MCU movies with me, thus making them more than casual fans, were clueless on who it is).

 

I still cried when the Avengers theme started playing over Original Six credits 😭 Lmao at Jeremy’s signature though, he’s such a joker.

 

I would be good with the line up you listed too. Though maybe hopefully Shang-chi also gonna be in the mix. New Big Three Carol/T’Challa/Peter gonna be interesting in terms of dynamic, completely different vibes from our Big Three.

 

I’m also interested in how they’re gonna incorporate the leftover OG6 into future installments of Avengers, particularly Clint and Bruce.

 

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8 minutes ago, TalismanRing said:

He went back further than that, those cars on the street outside the house they're dancing in are from the 1940s.

 

Heck he may have gone back to before his fight with Red Skull so he didn't have to go into the ice - or he may have given his location since he now knows where he ends up.  So in that timeline there is no Capsicle.  He could have even gone back a few days earlier and kept Bucky from becoming a one armed menace to society.  Steve is a master  strategist - I'm sure he had a plan.  That's what the song says any way.

 

 

I was sort of assuming that he went back to the Stork club around 8PM a week after the crash, but I hadn’t given it much thought. Tbh the ending does get a lot less elegant when you really think about it than it was presented in the movie, since our Cap isn’t just dropping in on a timeline that has Peggy without a Cap around, no matter when you choose to pop in there’s going to be a native timeline Cap around, and it’s like... what are you going to do about them?

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