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Charlie Jatinder

The Admission Count - Avatar vs Avengers: Endgame

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28 minutes ago, NCsoft said:

OK, as we're still in the first page, I do want to take the opportunity to discussion a few points. I do not want us Avatar/Jim stans to be painted as "flat-earthers", I think these points are worthy of noting.

 

*First of all, I think estimating global admission to compare two films is an exercise in futility, the data isn't precise nor clear, as with monetary box office numbers. There are numerous factors such as 3D ratio, ticket price inflation, and exchange rates at play, lots of estimation and guessing game is involved. Most importantly, since none of us is entirely "objective", though some pretends that they are, it's really easy for certain members of "authority" to be a bit sneaky here and there, as admission numbers are never absolute (you can already see that disclaimer being made).

 

1. If we have to do an admission estimation, who is most quality to do it? Ideally, someone with an unbiased view of global box office markets, and has no dog in the fights. Well, let's just say, looking at the members already in this thread (and past history of Avatar belittling and box office wishful thinking), with people already trying to smear Jim Fans as "Flat Earthers", and knowing that MCU fans outnumber Jim Stans like 10 to 1 on these forums. This doesn't exactly instill confidence in objectivity to me.  

The figurehead of this exercise, Charlie, has a history of being "vague" in admission numbers, to put it mildly. For example, he once claimed Avatar's domestic admission is ~70M, these days he's sticking to 75M, which is closer to the reality, as we don't have concrete data for Avatar domestic admission (ATP calculation put it much higher), most estimations put it in the range of 75-80M, you see, it may not seem to matter a great deal, but sneaking away 5M here, 10M there, soon, you're have a false narrative forming. Speaking of narrative, Charlie once claimed that Wolf Warrior 2 has 130M or so in admission in China to downplay Avatar 2's admission ceiling there, then he was corrected that WW2's actual admission is 169M by knowledgeable members. Whether that's intentional or an error I have no idea, but the point is, sometimes our own biases can re-shape our perception of reality, and admission numbers happen to be unclear/vague enough for narrative manipulation. I am not writing this to antagonist anyone, I wish that in this exercise, Charlie & Co. will exercise objectivity to the best of their abilities.

 

2. Is admission numbers a great indicator of a movie's relative success? Well, it would not be a bad comparison if global admission numbers stayed consistent over the years. However, that's not the case is it? China's yearly admission literally increased more than 8+ times over the past 10 years, this applies to many other developing markets in Asia, as well as other parts of the world.  We know that global box office increased by 40% over the last ten years, considering admission increases often happens in countries with much cheaper tickets, global admission may very well have increased by more than 40% over the past 10 yearsIs it a fair game comparing film admissions when they are released in markets that's significantly different in admission capacity? We know Endgame grossed $630M in China, the admission boost from there alone cannot be matched by Avatar not because Avatar didn't do well there (it tripled the highest grossing film at the time), but because Avatar simply did not have access to that size of a market, same story applies to many developing markets where Endgame broke the records in. The more accurate way to measure success, would be dividing number of tickets sold (Avatar, for example) by total numbers of yearly global admission of the year the film's released , we get a relative proportional success measurement, best way to counter a ever-changing market, I bet no one wants to do that though, why? Because it will only make Avatar and Titanic look good, two films that gross a disproportionate high amount in the year which they were released. No one wants to talk about how Avatar broke the previous worldwide record by 50%, tripled the second highest grosser of 2009, took almost 10% of global total box office of the year, and grossed more than Endgame in a global market that's 40% smaller in box office, the fact that these more proportional measurements are almost never discussed suggest where we are as a forum in terms of opinions, doesn't it?

 

3. Don't downplay 3D/premium showing. Many people are trying to use admission numbers to downplay Avatar, which is ridiculous since Avatar has impressive admission numbers. However, people fail to consider that if a film drives people to see it in IMAX, 3D and all other premium showings, the film must have done something right to earn that premium sub-charge, and the film deserves that money? Admission counts treats a 2D ticket the same as IMAX 3D, while failing to consider that people who spends a lot more on premium tickets are less likely to repeat watching the same films. If I had the money to see a film in 2D repeatedly for 5 times, that's only enough for 3 times with a 3D showing, and maybe 2 times with a IMAX 3D showing, the point is, massive premium showing percentage will likely drive down overall admission. Sometimes, actual box office money is more reflective of a film's success because it doesn't treat a 2D general ticket the same as a premium ticket.

 

So in summary, I wish the people who are involved in this exercise has a history of objectivity, as I wish global admission reporting is more accurate and is less prone to manipulation, on that, I remain ambivalent. Global admission count comparison is not fair for movies released 10 years apart, because the total yearly admission may have increased by 40%+ and the about-to-be largest market in the world increased yearly admission by 8 times, which Endgame fully took advantage of. Finally, high 3D showing ratio is not a crime and shows audience confidence in a film's ability to deliver a visual spectacle, admission treats 2D and premium tickets the same, thus not necessarily a be all end all measure, like many claims it is.

 

So factor in what goes in favour of Avatar an neglect what goes in favour of Endgame. Seems about right. 

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5 minutes ago, infamous5445 said:

You know, instead of complaining about this work, do it yourself if you think it's wrong. No one's stopping you.

I do not think global admission comparison is an appropriate assessment of relative success in comparing two films released years apart, there's no point for either me, or any of us doing that. I've explained it in great detail as to why, perhaps that escaped your mind.

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12 minutes ago, Shanks said:

Wow, it was just me alone bro. This here is a real problem. You came uninvited!! 

It was just me who said that.

Direct hate to me. Not everybody else.

I never said you (NCsoft) is flat-earther.  I didn't take a dig at any other stan either. it was just for JCS. Are you his alt account?

It was for @JamesCameronScholaralone but first panda defended him and now you? 

 

Avatar Stans always do this. Check out their 1000 page thread for a movie that has been delayed 6 times and probably will be again. Not sure why it's on the main forum considering it's a minimum of 30 months away and could be longer. Great chance Batman comes out first.

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2 minutes ago, JamesCameronScholar said:

Are you talking about JC's box office dominance? I know no one's stopping me, but to be honest if not even EG can beat Avatar I don't see myself being able to do it. If you're talking about comparing EG to Avatar, that's already done by BOM, and plenty of other sources. 

Then why are you here? From what I've seen you've contributed nothing of substance and are mocking other people's work. It's clear you don't care about things like ticket sales so why make fun of people who do? This is a box office forum, so people are interested in statistics like this. In addition, it takes a lot of work to compile all of this information together, yet you haven't appreciated all the work Charlie and others have done to present this information to us, something they absolutely did not have to do.

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2 minutes ago, cdsacken said:

Avatar Stans always do this. Check out their 1000 page thread for a movie that has been delayed 6 times and probably will be again. Not sure why it's on the main forum considering it's a minimum of 30 months away and could be longer. Great chance Batman comes out first.

I don't get it either. No other film has a thread for it allowed on the main board this early. You'd think it would have been on the lot. Even if it was opening December 18, 2020 still, that's JUST a year and a half away now, which I thought was the exactly the mark at which threads from On the Lot got moved here.

 

Not that I care either. It's not bothering me per se. I'm just very curious. It's the only film not opening for eons that I've seen on the main board. Does it have some special status or something?

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1 minute ago, infamous5445 said:

Then why are you here? From what I've seen you've contributed nothing of substance and are mocking other people's work. It's clear you don't care about things like ticket sales so why make fun of people who do? This is a box office forum, so people are interested in statistics like this. In addition, it takes a lot of work to compile all of this information together, yet you haven't appreciated all the work Charlie and others have done to present this information to us, something they absolutely did not have to do.

Anecdote. Ad hominem. Bootlicking. Are you playing some form of bingo I'm not aware of? You're missing 'inflation adjusted' and 'Avatar's original run' for a full house. 

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2 minutes ago, Sindreee said:

So factor in what goes in favour of Avatar an neglect what goes in favour of Endgame. Seems about right. 

Incorrect, I pointed out existing bias among this forum, and how narrative can be easily manipulated with vague/imprecise numbers, and how global admission 10 years apart does not offer not a good comparison. The fact that China increased by 8 times over 10 years in admission, the fact the world box office increased by 40% over 10 years, the fact that Avatar broke the previous record by 50%, they are cold hard facts. I did mention the 3D ratio thing, not because it's detrimental to Avatar or anything, but because I firmly believe that's a legitimate point of discussion, high 3D ratio can drive down admission, there are some intrinsic problem of "admission count", aside from massive global market increase, that we have to take into consideration here. 

 

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1 minute ago, infamous5445 said:

Then why are you here? From what I've seen you've contributed nothing of substance and are mocking other people's work. It's clear you don't care about things like ticket sales so why make fun of people who do? This is a box office forum, so people are interested in statistics like this. In addition, it takes a lot of work to compile all of this information together, yet you haven't appreciated all the work Charlie and others have done to present this information to us, something they absolutely did not have to do.

He doesn't. I've said it before, Cameron fans add nothing to this board. They almost exclusively hang out in the Avatar thread or the Alita thread in more recent times and have recently been more active in the Avengers and Fanboy Wars thread due to Endgame's proximity to Avatar on the worldwide gross list. They don't objectively discuss other films and box office like the majority of members here do. Every single one of their posts are relevant to Avatar, any other Cameron film, or Cameron himself. They offer nothing of substance. They bring nothing to the table here.

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5 minutes ago, infamous5445 said:

In addition, it takes a lot of work to compile all of this information together, yet you haven't appreciated all the work Charlie and others have done to present this information to us, something they absolutely did not have to do.

You and I both know why this thread is created, I love how you're trying to paint this as "public service" and "all the hard work compiling this data to present to us", as if Charlie didn't go into the China thread and try to blame Endgame not passing Avatar on China not giving it an extension, yet again. 

The truth is, this is created to push a narrative that Endgame is more successful, which requires significant mind gymnastics. If it's really clear to everyone that Endgame is more successful (a film grossing less than another in a global market 40% bigger is definitely not more successful), a persuasion thread with a narrative will not need to be created.

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Posted (edited)

Avatar

UK: 17,284,124

France: 14,775,990

Germany: 11,318,518

Italy: 7,517,743

Spain: 9,536,218

Netherlands: 1,772,000

Portugal: 1,207,749

Greece: 990,000

Czech Republic: 1,358,262

Hungary: 1,160,604

Romania: 881,718

Bulgaria: 474,817

Ukraine: 1,544,286

Russia: 14,156,289

China: 27,645,400

South Korea: 13,624,328

Australia: 9,643,335

Brazil: 9,172,377

Argentina: 2,860,000

Colombia: 2,760,570

Mexico: 10,210,000

DOM: 76,000,000 (estimated)

 

Endgame

UK: 11,268,418

France: 6,738,931

Germany: 4,986,437

Italy: 4,018,033

Spain: 4,495,971

Netherlands: 1,130,000

Portugal: 643,465

Greece: 524,643

Czech Republic: 871,489

Hungary: 793,427

Romania: 561,400

Bulgaria: 215,996

Ukraine: 1,397,322

Russia: 10,251,652

China: 86,721,451

South Korea: 13,749,139

Australia: 5,554,918

Brazil: 18,862,071

Argentina: 3,690,885

Colombia: 5,678,201

Mexico: 23,900,000

DOM: 84,900,198

 

http://www.insidekino.com/BO/Avatar.htm

 

Total of these countries:

Avatar: 234,299,528

Endgame: 290,954,047

 

China is the key. There is a 56 million gap and Endgame has sold 59 million more admissions in China than Avatar did.

Edited by peludo
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2 minutes ago, peludo said:

Avatar

UK: 17,284,124

France: 14,775,990

Germany: 11,318,518

Italy: 7,517,743

Spain: 9,536,218

Netherlands: 1,772,000

Portugal: 1,207,749

Greece: 990,000

Czech Republic: 1,358,262

Hungary: 1,160,604

Romania: 881,718

Bulgaria: 474,817

Ukraine: 1,544,286

Russia: 14,156,289

China: 27,645,400

South Korea: 13,624,328

Australia: 9,643,335

Brazil: 9,172,377

Argentina: 2,860,000

Colombia: 2,760,570

Mexico: 10,210,000

DOM: 76,000,000 (estimated)

 

Endgame

UK: 11,268,418

France: 6,738,931

Germany: 4,986,437

Italy: 4,018,033

Spain: 4,495,971

Netherlands: 1,130,000

Portugal: 643,465

Greece: 524,643

Czech Republic: 871,489

Hungary: 793,427

Romania: 561,400

Bulgaria: 215,996

Ukraine: 1,397,322

Russia: 10,251,652

China: 86,721,451

South Korea: 13,749,139

Australia: 5,554,918

Brazil: 18,862,071

Argentina: 3,690,885

Colombia: 5,678,201

Mexico: 23,900,000

DOM: 84,900,198

 

http://www.insidekino.com/BO/Avatar.htm

The numbers for EG in many countries haven't not updated yet. You can see the first post in this thread. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, NCsoft said:

You and I both know why this thread is created, I love how you're trying to paint this as "public service" and "all the hard work compiling this data to present to us", as if Charlie didn't go into the China thread and try to blame Endgame not passing Avatar on China not giving it an extension, yet again. 

The truth is, this is created to push a narrative that Endgame is more successful, which requires significant mind gymnastics. If it's really clear to everyone that Endgame is more successful (a film grossing less than another in a global market 40% bigger is definitely not more successful), a persuasion thread with a narrative will not need to be created.

And how am I supposed to know the real reason as to why this thread was created?

Edited by infamous5445

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, PKMLover said:

The numbers for EG in many countries haven't not updated yet. You can see the first post in this thread. 

Of course, EG has not finished its run yet, so the numbers should still increase a bit.

Edited by peludo
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9 minutes ago, peludo said:

Avatar

UK: 17,284,124

France: 14,775,990

Germany: 11,318,518

Italy: 7,517,743

Spain: 9,536,218

Netherlands: 1,772,000

Portugal: 1,207,749

Greece: 990,000

Czech Republic: 1,358,262

Hungary: 1,160,604

Romania: 881,718

Bulgaria: 474,817

Ukraine: 1,544,286

Russia: 14,156,289

China: 27,645,400

South Korea: 13,624,328

Australia: 9,643,335

Brazil: 9,172,377

Argentina: 2,860,000

Colombia: 2,760,570

Mexico: 10,210,000

DOM: 76,000,000 (estimated)

 

Endgame

UK: 11,268,418

France: 6,738,931

Germany: 4,986,437

Italy: 4,018,033

Spain: 4,495,971

Netherlands: 1,130,000

Portugal: 643,465

Greece: 524,643

Czech Republic: 871,489

Hungary: 793,427

Romania: 561,400

Bulgaria: 215,996

Ukraine: 1,397,322

Russia: 10,251,652

China: 86,721,451

South Korea: 13,749,139

Australia: 5,554,918

Brazil: 18,862,071

Argentina: 3,690,885

Colombia: 5,678,201

Mexico: 23,900,000

DOM: 84,900,198

 

http://www.insidekino.com/BO/Avatar.htm

 

Total of these countries:

Avatar: 234,299,528

Endgame: 290,954,047

 

China is the key. There is a 56 million gap and Endgame has sold 59 million more admissions in China than Avatar did.

It is so irony that the largest moviegoers market in the world by gross didn't even bother to track admission....

 

I remember Rth once said actually they do, just not for public displays. 

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Posted (edited)

Can't wait to see a masterclass in twisting reality by a purple user!

 

Hope he shows how the numbers are calculated as he says, no smoke and mirrors please.

Edited by IronJimbo
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Why are the Cameron stans in this thread getting so defensive?

 

If EG passes avatar WW “well Avatar came out 10 years ago so if you look at admissions it blows it out of the water”

 

Someone actually shows up to compare admission #s: “this is completely biased, to truthfully compare you must divide admissions by yearly box office” or whatever. Uh yea, you can literally make any statistic look the way you want by playing with the variables.

 

I’m not even a Marvel Stan but the hypocrisy is hilarious. Good luck to you @Charlie Jatinder

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2 minutes ago, titanic2187 said:

It is so irony that the largest moviegoers market in the world by gross didn't even bother to track admission....

 

I remember Rth once said actually they do, just not for public displays. 

I think rth said that it is done for most of the countries but as even rth is not deep into the system, we don't have that data. He does provide for few countries that he has access to.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, titanic2187 said:

It is so irony that the largest moviegoers market in the world by gross didn't even bother to track admission....

 

I remember Rth once said actually they do, just not for public displays. 

Money is the only thing that they care about...

 

I have another link with estimations of DOM attendance, but it is not updated since 2012:

http://www.mrob.com/pub/film-video/topadj.html#fn_1

Edited by peludo

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Woah, I just noticed the Like button was fixed.

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25 minutes ago, JamesCameronScholar said:

Sure sounds like it is. :Gaga:

 

It's the sequel to the highest grossing film of all time. 

The thread, not the film.

 

Like I said, I really don't care. It's just an observation. 

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