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charlie Jatinder

The Admission Count Thread.

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Originally meant to Avengers: Endgame vs Avatar thread but since the topic has more to it, so making it thread about compiling admissions of various films. The original 'original post' in spoiler.

  

1 minute ago, charlie Jatinder said:

The Most Watched films Globally since 1997

  1. Titanic: 409mn
  2. Avengers: Endgame: 392mn
  3. Avengers: Infinity War: 301mn
  4. Avatar: 287mn
  5. The Lion King: 245mn
  6. Star Wars: The Force Awakens: 231mn
  7. Furious 7: 225mn
  8. Jurassic World: 216mn
  9. Frozen II: 213mn
  10. The Fate of the Furious: 207mn

 

 

Spoiler

Since, Avengers: Endgame is on its last days of box office earning and I had promised to do this one, so now it begins. The purpose of this thread is to compare the admissions of the two biggest grossers of all time; Avatar and Avengers: Endgame to settle the debate on some issues which concern the box office community; such as exchange rates, inflations, etc. I am starting this thread today but it won't be completed till next two weeks most probably. I am hoping that by July 10th, we will have almost the actual admission count of the two giants, so stay tuned. 

 

The sheet will be the battleground which will be updated in time.

https://bit.ly/aaacount

 

Now somethings I would like to say;

  1. This is an attempt to get the closest to actually count as the absolute accurate number is impossible.
  2. There will be sources, provided for every number taken.
  3. Some numbers will be estimated, the calculations will be provided
  4. If you find any mistake, please let me know.
  5. It will be easier to finish if all of you can help with the markets you track. Thanks in advance.

 

giphy.gif

 

After compiling data for some time now; result are in, with a margin of error less than 5% up/down, the most watched films in last 25 years are as follow.

  

1 minute ago, charlie Jatinder said:

The Most Watched films Globally since 1997

  1. Titanic: 409mn
  2. Avengers: Endgame: 392mn
  3. Avengers: Infinity War: 301mn
  4. Avatar: 287mn
  5. The Lion King: 245mn
  6. Star Wars: The Force Awakens: 231mn
  7. Furious 7: 225mn
  8. Jurassic World: 216mn
  9. Frozen II: 213mn
  10. The Fate of the Furious: 207mn

 

 

 

Edited by charlie Jatinder
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Please let me know if you think any countries number may be wrong: 

 

TICKET  UPDATE:

 

Region

 

 

EndGame

   
         
Australia   5.72    
Europe   53.6*    
USA   85    
South Korea   13.9    
China   86.61    
Philipines   5.2    
Japan   4.01    
Thailand   5.1    
India   22.3    
Vietnam   3.65    
Taiwan   3.45    
Malaysia    2.8    
Hong Kong   1.28    
Indonesia   11.1    
Latin America   69.5~*

 

 
    373.42

 

 

 

I still need ATP sources for South Africa, UAE, Namibia, Myanmar, Pakistan, Israel & a dozen other countries which account for around 8% gross of Endgame. 

 

 

New ATP Sources:

 

India: Avatar should be around 8m and EG 22-23m.

 

Japan --------> Checked out records forum in WoKj.

Indonesia-----> 11M for Endgame Admission was reported on the news. Also, I checked the top 40 movies for Indonesia and Avatar was not in that list, the movie on 40th had 2.7M admission and I gave it to Avatar. 

Australia Admission --> In 2009, In a total of 90.7M admission accounted for AU$ 1085m.  Average Ticket prices were AU$ 11.99 in 2009 to AU$13.86 in 2018. So, Avatar which had earned AU$115M ----> 9.6M tickets. Now, EG has earned AUD 80M, so with 14 AUD average price this year-----> 5.72M tickets.

 

Hong Kong: https://www.cinema.com.hk/en/site/ticketPrice--> You can find EG's price list for 2D & 3D. Just average them.

Malaysia: http://www.cinema.com.my/cinemas/ticketpricing.aspx for EG

TAIWAN: http://www.sunable.net/book/export/html/1191  for EG

Vietnam: https://www.cgv.vn/en/movies/now-showing.html---> Around 70,000VND for CGV Cinemas in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City & 50,000VND for CGV Cinemas in other provinces.

 

Europe: Credit to FireKnight_750 from Reddit.

UK: 10.7 M

France: 6.7M

Germany: 5 M

Italy: 4 M

Spain: 4.4 M

Russia: 10.3M

Poland: 1.9 M

Sweden: 550 K

Iceland: 75 K

Norway: 460 K

Belgium: 840 K

Switzerland: 500 K

Czech Republic: 870 K

Finland: 340 K

Denmark: 800 K

Austria: 400 K

Hungary: 800 K

Ukraine: 1.4 M

Portugal: 650 K

Bulgaria: 210 K

Greece: 540 K

 

Latin America: credit to AgentCooper315 from Reddit.

Updated: A total of at least 62.65M from these 7 major LA markets. These major markets usually represent around 90% of the total admission data in LA. So this would be around 69.5M admissions.

Edited by Shanks
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Wait, I think Vietnam has more than 4M admissions? 

The total money should be 300B already.

The average ticket price here is around 67.5k. So it should be at least 4M

@nguyenkhoi282 please check 

 

And the total of 7 major LA countries above is 62.65M already, not 58.7M. If it represents 90% of total admissions of the whole LA, then, it will be 69.5M

EDIT: Mexico updated to 25.5 since last week

@Shanks

Edited by PKMLover
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oh god Charlie @Charlie Jatinder, I wish you all the best in this risky adventure. I don't now how will you come out of it when all the numbering (and no-numbering too) is done. So brave you are. I'll keep you in my nightly prayers. 🙏🏻

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OK, as we're still in the first page, I do want to take the opportunity to discuss a few points. I do not want us Avatar/Jim stans to be painted as "flat-earthers", I think these points are worthy of noting.

 

*First of all, I think estimating global admission to compare two films is an exercise in futility, the data isn't precise nor clear, as is the case with monetary box office. There are numerous factors such as 3D ratio, ticket price inflation, and exchange rates at play, lots of estimation and guessing game is involved. Most importantly, since none of us is entirely "objective", though some like to pretend that they are, it's  easy for certain members of "authority" to be a bit sneaky here and there, since admission numbers are never absolute (you can already see that disclaimer being made).

 

1. If we have to do an admission estimation, who is the most qualified to do it? Ideally, someone with an unbiased view of global box office markets, and has no dog in the fights. Well, let's just say, looking at the members already in this thread (and past history of Avatar belittling and box office wishful thinking), with people already trying to smear Jim Fans as "Flat Earthers", and knowing that MCU fans outnumber Jim Stans like 10 to 1 on these forums. This doesn't exactly instill confidence in objectivity to me.  

The figurehead of this exercise, Charlie, has a history of being "vague" in admission numbers, to put it mildly. For example, he once claimed Avatar's domestic admission is ~70M, these days he's sticking to 75M, which is closer to the reality, as we don't have concrete data for Avatar domestic admission (ATP calculation put it much higher), most estimations put it in the range of 75-80M, you see, it may not seem to matter a great deal, but sneaking away 5M here, 10M there, soon, you're have a false narrative forming. Speaking of narrative, Charlie once claimed that Wolf Warrior 2 has 130M or so in admission in China to downplay Avatar 2's admission ceiling there, then he was corrected that WW2's actual admission is 169M by knowledgeable members. Whether that's intentional or an error I have no idea, but the point is, sometimes our own biases can re-shape our perception of reality, and admission numbers happen to be unclear/vague enough for narrative manipulation. I am not writing this to antagonize anyone, I just wish that in this exercise, Charlie & Co. will exercise objectivity to the best of their abilities.

 

2. Is admission numbers a great indicator of a movie's relative success? Well, it would not be a bad comparison if global admission numbers stayed consistent over the years. However, that's not the case is it? China's yearly admission literally increased more than 8+ times over the past 10 years, this applies to many other developing markets in Asia, as well as other parts of the world.  We know that global box office increased by 40% over the last ten years, considering admission increases often happens in countries with much cheaper tickets, global admission may very well have increased by more than 40% over the past 10 yearsIs it a fair game comparing film admissions when they are released in markets that's significantly different in admission capacity? We know Endgame grossed $630M in China, the admission boost from there alone cannot be matched by Avatar not because Avatar didn't do well there (it tripled the highest grossing film at the time), but because Avatar simply did not have access to that size of a market, same story applies to many developing markets where Endgame broke the records in. The more accurate way to measure success, would be dividing number of tickets sold (Avatar, for example) by total numbers of yearly global admission of the year the film's released , we get a relative proportional success measurement, best way to counter a ever-changing market, I bet no one wants to do that though, why? Because it will only make Avatar and Titanic look good, two films that gross a disproportionate high amount in the year which they were released. No one wants to talk about how Avatar broke the previous worldwide record by 50%, tripled the second highest grosser of 2009, took almost 10% of global total box office of the year, and grossed more than Endgame in a global market that's 40% smaller in box office, the fact that these more proportional measurements are almost never discussed suggest where we are as a forum in terms of opinions, doesn't it?

 

3. Don't downplay 3D/premium showing. Many people are trying to use admission numbers to downplay Avatar, which is ridiculous since Avatar has impressive admission numbers. However, people fail to consider that if a film drives people to see it in IMAX, 3D and all other premium showings, the film must have done something right to earn that premium sub-charge. That means perhaps the film deserves that money? Admission counts treats a 2D ticket the same as IMAX 3D, while failing to consider that people who spends a lot more on premium tickets are less likely to repeat watching the same films. If I had the money to see a film in 2D repeatedly for 5 times, that's only enough for 3 times with a 3D showing, and maybe 2 times with a IMAX 3D showing, the point is, massive premium showing percentage will likely drive down overall admission. Sometimes, actual box office money is more reflective of a film's success because it doesn't treat a 2D general ticket the same as a premium ticket.

 

So in summary, I wish the people who are involved in this exercise has a history of objectivity, as I wish global admission reporting is more accurate and is less prone to manipulation, on that, I remain ambivalent. Global admission count comparison is not fair for movies released 10 years apart, because the total yearly admission may have increased by 40%+ and the about-to-be largest market in the world increased yearly admission by 8 times, which Endgame fully took advantage of. Finally, high 3D showing ratio is not a crime and shows audience confidence in a film's ability to deliver a visual spectacle, admission treats 2D and premium tickets the same, thus not necessarily a be all end all measure, like many claims it is.

 

Edited by NCsoft
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28 minutes ago, NCsoft said:

OK, as we're still in the first page, I do want to take the opportunity to discussion a few points. I do not want us Avatar/Jim stans to be painted as "flat-earthers", I think these points are worthy of noting.

 

*First of all, I think estimating global admission to compare two films is an exercise in futility, the data isn't precise nor clear, as with monetary box office numbers. There are numerous factors such as 3D ratio, ticket price inflation, and exchange rates at play, lots of estimation and guessing game is involved. Most importantly, since none of us is entirely "objective", though some pretends that they are, it's really easy for certain members of "authority" to be a bit sneaky here and there, as admission numbers are never absolute (you can already see that disclaimer being made).

 

1. If we have to do an admission estimation, who is most quality to do it? Ideally, someone with an unbiased view of global box office markets, and has no dog in the fights. Well, let's just say, looking at the members already in this thread (and past history of Avatar belittling and box office wishful thinking), with people already trying to smear Jim Fans as "Flat Earthers", and knowing that MCU fans outnumber Jim Stans like 10 to 1 on these forums. This doesn't exactly instill confidence in objectivity to me.  

The figurehead of this exercise, Charlie, has a history of being "vague" in admission numbers, to put it mildly. For example, he once claimed Avatar's domestic admission is ~70M, these days he's sticking to 75M, which is closer to the reality, as we don't have concrete data for Avatar domestic admission (ATP calculation put it much higher), most estimations put it in the range of 75-80M, you see, it may not seem to matter a great deal, but sneaking away 5M here, 10M there, soon, you're have a false narrative forming. Speaking of narrative, Charlie once claimed that Wolf Warrior 2 has 130M or so in admission in China to downplay Avatar 2's admission ceiling there, then he was corrected that WW2's actual admission is 169M by knowledgeable members. Whether that's intentional or an error I have no idea, but the point is, sometimes our own biases can re-shape our perception of reality, and admission numbers happen to be unclear/vague enough for narrative manipulation. I am not writing this to antagonist anyone, I wish that in this exercise, Charlie & Co. will exercise objectivity to the best of their abilities.

 

2. Is admission numbers a great indicator of a movie's relative success? Well, it would not be a bad comparison if global admission numbers stayed consistent over the years. However, that's not the case is it? China's yearly admission literally increased more than 8+ times over the past 10 years, this applies to many other developing markets in Asia, as well as other parts of the world.  We know that global box office increased by 40% over the last ten years, considering admission increases often happens in countries with much cheaper tickets, global admission may very well have increased by more than 40% over the past 10 yearsIs it a fair game comparing film admissions when they are released in markets that's significantly different in admission capacity? We know Endgame grossed $630M in China, the admission boost from there alone cannot be matched by Avatar not because Avatar didn't do well there (it tripled the highest grossing film at the time), but because Avatar simply did not have access to that size of a market, same story applies to many developing markets where Endgame broke the records in. The more accurate way to measure success, would be dividing number of tickets sold (Avatar, for example) by total numbers of yearly global admission of the year the film's released , we get a relative proportional success measurement, best way to counter a ever-changing market, I bet no one wants to do that though, why? Because it will only make Avatar and Titanic look good, two films that gross a disproportionate high amount in the year which they were released. No one wants to talk about how Avatar broke the previous worldwide record by 50%, tripled the second highest grosser of 2009, took almost 10% of global total box office of the year, and grossed more than Endgame in a global market that's 40% smaller in box office, the fact that these more proportional measurements are almost never discussed suggest where we are as a forum in terms of opinions, doesn't it?

 

3. Don't downplay 3D/premium showing. Many people are trying to use admission numbers to downplay Avatar, which is ridiculous since Avatar has impressive admission numbers. However, people fail to consider that if a film drives people to see it in IMAX, 3D and all other premium showings, the film must have done something right to earn that premium sub-charge, and the film deserves that money? Admission counts treats a 2D ticket the same as IMAX 3D, while failing to consider that people who spends a lot more on premium tickets are less likely to repeat watching the same films. If I had the money to see a film in 2D repeatedly for 5 times, that's only enough for 3 times with a 3D showing, and maybe 2 times with a IMAX 3D showing, the point is, massive premium showing percentage will likely drive down overall admission. Sometimes, actual box office money is more reflective of a film's success because it doesn't treat a 2D general ticket the same as a premium ticket.

 

So in summary, I wish the people who are involved in this exercise has a history of objectivity, as I wish global admission reporting is more accurate and is less prone to manipulation, on that, I remain ambivalent. Global admission count comparison is not fair for movies released 10 years apart, because the total yearly admission may have increased by 40%+ and the about-to-be largest market in the world increased yearly admission by 8 times, which Endgame fully took advantage of. Finally, high 3D showing ratio is not a crime and shows audience confidence in a film's ability to deliver a visual spectacle, admission treats 2D and premium tickets the same, thus not necessarily a be all end all measure, like many claims it is.

 

So factor in what goes in favour of Avatar an neglect what goes in favour of Endgame. Seems about right. 

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5 minutes ago, infamous5445 said:

You know, instead of complaining about this work, do it yourself if you think it's wrong. No one's stopping you.

I do not think global admission comparison is an appropriate assessment of relative success in comparing two films released years apart, there's no point for either me, or any of us doing that. I've explained it in great detail as to why, perhaps that escaped your mind.

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Avatar

UK: 17,284,124

France: 14,775,990

Germany: 11,318,518

Italy: 7,517,743

Spain: 9,536,218

Netherlands: 1,772,000

Portugal: 1,207,749

Greece: 990,000

Czech Republic: 1,358,262

Hungary: 1,160,604

Romania: 881,718

Bulgaria: 474,817

Ukraine: 1,544,286

Russia: 14,156,289

China: 27,645,400

South Korea: 13,624,328

Australia: 9,643,335

Brazil: 9,172,377

Argentina: 2,860,000

Colombia: 2,760,570

Mexico: 10,210,000

DOM: 76,000,000 (estimated)

 

Endgame

UK: 11,268,418

France: 6,738,931

Germany: 4,986,437

Italy: 4,018,033

Spain: 4,495,971

Netherlands: 1,130,000

Portugal: 643,465

Greece: 524,643

Czech Republic: 871,489

Hungary: 793,427

Romania: 561,400

Bulgaria: 215,996

Ukraine: 1,397,322

Russia: 10,251,652

China: 86,721,451

South Korea: 13,749,139

Australia: 5,554,918

Brazil: 18,862,071

Argentina: 3,690,885

Colombia: 5,678,201

Mexico: 23,900,000

DOM: 84,900,198

 

http://www.insidekino.com/BO/Avatar.htm

 

Total of these countries:

Avatar: 234,299,528

Endgame: 290,954,047

 

China is the key. There is a 56 million gap and Endgame has sold 59 million more admissions in China than Avatar did.

Edited by peludo
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2 minutes ago, peludo said:

Avatar

UK: 17,284,124

France: 14,775,990

Germany: 11,318,518

Italy: 7,517,743

Spain: 9,536,218

Netherlands: 1,772,000

Portugal: 1,207,749

Greece: 990,000

Czech Republic: 1,358,262

Hungary: 1,160,604

Romania: 881,718

Bulgaria: 474,817

Ukraine: 1,544,286

Russia: 14,156,289

China: 27,645,400

South Korea: 13,624,328

Australia: 9,643,335

Brazil: 9,172,377

Argentina: 2,860,000

Colombia: 2,760,570

Mexico: 10,210,000

DOM: 76,000,000 (estimated)

 

Endgame

UK: 11,268,418

France: 6,738,931

Germany: 4,986,437

Italy: 4,018,033

Spain: 4,495,971

Netherlands: 1,130,000

Portugal: 643,465

Greece: 524,643

Czech Republic: 871,489

Hungary: 793,427

Romania: 561,400

Bulgaria: 215,996

Ukraine: 1,397,322

Russia: 10,251,652

China: 86,721,451

South Korea: 13,749,139

Australia: 5,554,918

Brazil: 18,862,071

Argentina: 3,690,885

Colombia: 5,678,201

Mexico: 23,900,000

DOM: 84,900,198

 

http://www.insidekino.com/BO/Avatar.htm

The numbers for EG in many countries haven't not updated yet. You can see the first post in this thread. 

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5 minutes ago, PKMLover said:

The numbers for EG in many countries haven't not updated yet. You can see the first post in this thread. 

Of course, EG has not finished its run yet, so the numbers should still increase a bit.

Edited by peludo
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9 minutes ago, peludo said:

Avatar

UK: 17,284,124

France: 14,775,990

Germany: 11,318,518

Italy: 7,517,743

Spain: 9,536,218

Netherlands: 1,772,000

Portugal: 1,207,749

Greece: 990,000

Czech Republic: 1,358,262

Hungary: 1,160,604

Romania: 881,718

Bulgaria: 474,817

Ukraine: 1,544,286

Russia: 14,156,289

China: 27,645,400

South Korea: 13,624,328

Australia: 9,643,335

Brazil: 9,172,377

Argentina: 2,860,000

Colombia: 2,760,570

Mexico: 10,210,000

DOM: 76,000,000 (estimated)

 

Endgame

UK: 11,268,418

France: 6,738,931

Germany: 4,986,437

Italy: 4,018,033

Spain: 4,495,971

Netherlands: 1,130,000

Portugal: 643,465

Greece: 524,643

Czech Republic: 871,489

Hungary: 793,427

Romania: 561,400

Bulgaria: 215,996

Ukraine: 1,397,322

Russia: 10,251,652

China: 86,721,451

South Korea: 13,749,139

Australia: 5,554,918

Brazil: 18,862,071

Argentina: 3,690,885

Colombia: 5,678,201

Mexico: 23,900,000

DOM: 84,900,198

 

http://www.insidekino.com/BO/Avatar.htm

 

Total of these countries:

Avatar: 234,299,528

Endgame: 290,954,047

 

China is the key. There is a 56 million gap and Endgame has sold 59 million more admissions in China than Avatar did.

It is so irony that the largest moviegoers market in the world by gross didn't even bother to track admission....

 

I remember Rth once said actually they do, just not for public displays. 

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2 minutes ago, titanic2187 said:

It is so irony that the largest moviegoers market in the world by gross didn't even bother to track admission....

 

I remember Rth once said actually they do, just not for public displays. 

I think rth said that it is done for most of the countries but as even rth is not deep into the system, we don't have that data. He does provide for few countries that he has access to.

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5 minutes ago, titanic2187 said:

It is so irony that the largest moviegoers market in the world by gross didn't even bother to track admission....

 

I remember Rth once said actually they do, just not for public displays. 

Money is the only thing that they care about...

 

I have another link with estimations of DOM attendance, but it is not updated since 2012:

http://www.mrob.com/pub/film-video/topadj.html#fn_1

Edited by peludo

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Woah, I just noticed the Like button was fixed.

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25 minutes ago, JamesCameronScholar said:

Sure sounds like it is. :Gaga:

 

It's the sequel to the highest grossing film of all time. 

The thread, not the film.

 

Like I said, I really don't care. It's just an observation. 

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3 minutes ago, peludo said:

Endgame

UK: 11,268,418

France: 6,738,931

Germany: 4,986,437

Italy: 4,018,033

Spain: 4,495,971

Netherlands: 1,130,000

Portugal: 643,465

Greece: 524,643

Czech Republic: 871,489

Hungary: 793,427

Romania: 561,400

Bulgaria: 215,996

Ukraine: 1,397,322

Russia: 10,251,652

China: 86,721,451

South Korea: 13,749,139

Australia: 5,554,918

Brazil: 18,862,071

Argentina: 3,690,885

Colombia: 5,678,201

Mexico: 23,900,000

DOM: 84,900,198

 

http://www.insidekino.com/BO/Avatar.htm

SK: 13,898,829  (as of 6.24)

Brazil: 19.279m (6.2)
Mexico: 25.5m (6.9)

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8 minutes ago, NCsoft said:

Are you suggesting that Avatar (the highest grossing film of all time), needs to twist the statistic to make it look good?

 

NAME me one of these below that is not the truth, please go ahead:

 

1. Avatar surpassed worldwide record by 50% (previously set by Titanic) in 2009, when no other film even came close to Titanic

2. Avatar was the first film to break 2B , and it made almost 3B (at a time when the highest non-Cameron film grossed 1.12B worldwide, being LOTR3)

3. Avatar still grossed a little more than Endgame in a global market that's 40% smaller than today.

4. Avatar singlehandedly made near 10% of the worldwide yearly box office in 2009

5. Avatar was the highest grossing film of all time domestically at time of release, and adjusted for inflation, is still higher than Endgame domestically.

6. Avatar tripled the second highest grossing film worldwide in 2009.

7. Top 10 films gross worldwide in 2018 is 42% higher than back in 2009, meaning Hollywood grosses a lot more today due to global inflation + Market expansion

8. Avatar grossed an unprecedented $200M in China back in 2010, tripled China's highest grossing record.

 

 

 

 

7 1/2 points are correct, but Avatar did not sell more admissions DOM than Endgame. I guess that every adjusted list is based on average ticket price to get the admissions sold and then get the adjusted figure. But it does not work very well with Avatar, which was bloated because of an incredible 3D ratio.

 

It is estimated that Avatar sold 76-78 million admissions DOM, while, if I am not wrong, Endgame has already reached the 80 million figure. Endgame is already over Avatar adjusting by inflation in USA+Canada.

Edited by peludo
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Woah. That escalated quickly. Did Asia major countries today, will be doing Europe and Latin America tomorrow.

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6 minutes ago, peludo said:

7 1/2 points are correct, but Avatar did not sell more admissions DOM than Endgame. I guess that every adjusted list is based on average ticket price to get the admissions sold and then get the adjusted figure. But it does not work very well with Avatar, which was bloated because of an incredible 3D ratio.

 

It is estimated that Avatar sold 76-78 million admissions DOM, while, if I am not wrong, Endgame has already reached the 80 million figure. Endgame is already over Avatar adjusting by inflation in USA+Canada.

I know Endgame has higher admission than Avatar domestically, but adjusting for inflation is also a monetary adjustment , not solely an admission adjustment, therefore, 3D and premium subcharge should definitely count, by ordinary inflation metric, $760M in 2009 adjust more than $840M in 2019.

If we were comparing admission only, it's a different story, which we all acknowledge, but that's why I didn't word it that way, I specifically said "adjusting for inflation domestically".

Edited by NCsoft
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