Disney+ MCU: Wandavision | January 15, 2021 | UNTAGGED SPOILERS ALLOWED! ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK

[terrestrial]

10 minutes ago, Wormow said:

This review covered my thoughts very well: https://www.patreon.com/posts/watercoolering-48399023

I think its not a good idea to link to an external review ... at patreon without even give additional input who (recognized reviewer or average person) nor the gist of it (the main points as an example)

 

As it is I see it as click-bait to a click collector

[Cap]

2 hours ago, Wormow said:

This review covered my thoughts very well: https://www.patreon.com/posts/watercoolering-48399023

This review is so good. It hits every nail. It’s really long, but it’s absolutely worth it. 

[Menor the Destroyer]

4 hours ago, Wormow said:

This review covered my thoughts very well: https://www.patreon.com/posts/watercoolering-48399023

Spoiler

 

I disagree with quite a bit in this review, which is normal for me with FilmCritHulk. Once again, I feel like there's an attempt to put a veneer of objectivity onto some aspects that Hulk simply just personally disliked. 

 

"This is our home/then let's fight for it" is a good example. That line was there because they were being attacked and people were trying to kill them. Don't understand what else you do in that scenario but fight.

 

As far as the townspeople scene, I thought it was fairly obvious that Wanda didn't really believe that they were suffering. She had convinced herself that they were all fine. Vision tried to get through to her on that point, but hearing isn't the same as believing. 

 

I agree that QS was a dumb red herring, but Hulk is wrong that Agatha "just conjured him." In episode 8 it's stated that he is a "meat puppet" or something like that. 

 

I cared enough about the kids, so I think this was just a personal issue on Hulk's part.

 

"You were born for it" is not eugenics, lmao. WTF is this criticism. 

 

Monica got less of a role than I would've liked, so I'm with Hulk in part there, but in the end this show wasn't her story so I don't see it as this huge problem that Hulk seems to.

 

I'm with Hulk on the SWORD director being a terrible villain, also that the magical fight was overly confusing.

 

Agatha's punishment is fine with me since she was a jerk. Don't see why Wanda shouldn't give her some painful lessons.

 

"Thanks for choosing me to be your mom" is a somewhat common expression, I think?

 

Monica was established from episode 5 to have an irrational level of sympathy for Wanda, so I don't see why people are surprised that she still does at the end. 

 

A lot of complaining about post-credits scenes and setup which I don't really understand nor care about. I don't see why people worship at the altar of Self-Contained Stories being the only thing that matters. 

 

Second half of the review is where it gets into a lot of faux-objectivity. There are not "enough" scenes of genuine conflict, apparently. But how much is "enough"? This seems to be something that could vary a lot by viewer. I don't see why everything needs to be solved by conflict between Wanda and Vision (as opposed to conflict between Wanda and other characters or internal conflict). 

 

Hulk poses the question: "did you really enjoy this mystery?" I would say I did.

 

Then claims that removing the mystery box and playing it straight from the beginning would have made for a better show. Possible, but I can't say that for sure. I don't think that (speculative show in Hulk's head) is better than what we have now means that the actual existing show is bad.

Then at the end Hulk says that every Marvel movie should be as good as Black Panther. While I loved BP and do think it is better than WandaVision, Hulk makes it sound like this near-flawless movie that uses every second efficiently and makes every character meaningful. I would say this is false, for example W'Kabi's arc was really rushed. I would not call that "an interesting flaw that provides a framework for cultural conversations." It's just a character that wasn't given full justice, which happens often when a film/show is juggling several characters. Hulk seems to find this forgivable for BP but less so for other MCU works. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Menor

[terrestrial]

32 minutes ago, Menor said:

FilmCritHulk

thanks for giving that name, so I wont waste neither a click nor my time

 

Your reaction was very insightful, I guess we have a 90% + overlap 

 

I feel they tried successfully to do something else, in details at least something new, still being obviously part of the whole. It‘s not my personal #1 in the MCU, but I feel its a very good change of media/pace/... even genre mix.

The bad one was a bit one sided, but see ‚conflict‘ I do not feel like he was needed to be more, the conflict was in part within Wanda herself, she was ~ breaking before and still, that alone in that setting would have been enough ‚conflict‘ IMHO, not every ‚conflict‘ has to be a clear formulated, fought over one. That is the beauty of a mini-series, there is time for going into what might be inside the head, the changes too.

Monica I‘d too would have loved to see more, but I understand she was not a WandaVision & Monica character, it wetted my appetite for more about her, but think it could have been a bit better done.

What might be a reason is maybe the same as it was with Captain Marvel in Endgame, being cautious in how to present her to not create her too strongly for possible changes/needs in the CM 2 movie. As I was thinking about that before WandaVision started, like curious if she will be more than a cameo to not limit her creation for the director of CM 2 I am actually more happy for now than not happy (like 2 parts out of 3?).

 

(edit: I do care about the kids, as I have not read it, no idea why that might be in question)

 

Where I do not overlap (if that is the term):

The fight against Agatha:

earnest question, what was confusing about that? 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by terrestrial

[Menor the Destroyer]

3 minutes ago, terrestrial said:

thanks for giving that name, so I wont waste neither a click nor my time

 

Your reaction was very insightful, I guess we have a 90% + overlap 

 

I feel they tried successfully to do something else, in details at least something new, still being obviously part of the whole. It‘s not my personal #1 in the MCU, but I feel its a very good change of media/pace/... even genre mix.

The bad one was a bit one sided, but see ‚conflict‘ I do not feel like he was needed to be more, the conflict was in part within Wanda herself, she was ~ breaking before and still, that alone in that setting would have been enough ‚conflict‘ IMHO, not every ‚conflict‘ has to be a clear formulated, fought over one. That is the beauty of a mini-series, there is time for going into what might be inside the head, the changes too.

Monica I‘d too would have loved to see more, but I understand she was not a WandaVision & Monica character, it wetted my appetite for more about her, but think it could have been a bit better done.

What might be a reason is maybe the same as it was with Captain Marvel in Endgame, being cautious in how to present her to not create her too strongly for possible changes/needs in the CM 2 movie. As I was thinking about that before WandaVision started, like curious if she will be more than a cameo to not limit her creation for the director of CM 2 I am actually more happy for now than not happy (like 2 parts out of 3?).

 

(edit: I do care about the kids, as I have not read it, no idea why that might be in question)

 

Where I do not overlap (if that is the term):

The fight against Agatha:

earnest question, what was confusing about that? 

 

Spoiler

My main confusion was the whole "magic absorption" thing. It was never really established that Wanda had the power to reabsorb her own magic until she actually did, which made it feel a bit cheap. 

 

[lorddemaxus]

3 minutes ago, Menor said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I disagree with quite a bit in this review, which is normal for me with FilmCritHulk. Once again, I feel like there's an attempt to put a veneer of objectivity onto some aspects that Hulk simply just personally disliked. 

 

"This is our home/then let's fight for it" is a good example. That line was there because they were being attacked and people were trying to kill them. Don't understand what else you do in that scenario but fight.

 

As far as the townspeople scene, I thought it was fairly obvious that Wanda didn't really believe that they were suffering. She had convinced herself that they were all fine. Vision tried to get through to her on that point, but hearing isn't the same as believing. 

 

I agree that QS was a dumb red herring, but Hulk is wrong that Agatha "just conjured him." In episode 8 it's stated that he is a "meat puppet" or something like that. 

 

I cared enough about the kids, so I think this was just a personal issue on Hulk's part.

 

"You were born for it" is not eugenics, lmao. WTF is this criticism. 

 

Monica got less of a role than I would've liked, so I'm with Hulk in part there, but in the end this show wasn't her story so I don't see it as this huge problem that Hulk seems to.

 

I'm with Hulk on the SWORD director being a terrible villain, also that the magical fight was overly confusing.

 

Agatha's punishment is fine with me since she was a jerk. Don't see why Wanda shouldn't give her some painful lessons.

 

"Thanks for choosing me to be your mom" is a somewhat common expression, I think?

 

Monica was established from episode 5 to have an irrational level of sympathy for Wanda, so I don't see why people are surprised that she still does at the end. 

 

A lot of complaining about post-credits scenes and setup which I don't really understand nor care about. I don't see why people worship at the altar of Self-Contained Stories being the only thing that matters. 

 

Second half of the review is where it gets into a lot of faux-objectivity. There are not "enough" scenes of genuine conflict, apparently. But how much is "enough"? This seems to be something that could vary a lot by viewer. I don't see why everything needs to be solved by conflict between Wanda and Vision (as opposed to conflict between Wanda and other characters). 

 

Hulk poses the question: "did you really enjoy this mystery?" I would say I did.

 

Then claims that removing the mystery box and playing it straight from the beginning would have made for a better show. Possible, but I can't say that for sure. I don't think that (speculative show in Hulk's head) is better than what we have now means that the actual existing show is bad.

Then at the end Hulk says that every Marvel movie should be as good as Black Panther. While I loved BP and do think it is better than WandaVision, Hulk makes it sound like this near-flawless movie that uses every second efficiently and makes every character meaningful. I would say this is false, for example W'Kabi's arc was really rushed. I would not call that "an interesting flaw that provides a framework for cultural conversations." It's just a character that wasn't given full justice, which happens often when a film/show is juggling several characters. Hulk seems to find this forgivable for BP but less so for other MCU works. 

 

 

Spoiler

Hulk's criticisms about that line about fighting for their home isn't that it's not a logical choice for the characters, more that its an unearned line and them having to "fight for their home" takes away from more important parts of the story so that we can see them do some generic fights (that don't even look as good as the barely competent fights in a usual MCU movie) and then forgets about that and tries to deal with those more important parts as some kind of an afterthought. 

 

And regarding that point about conflict, enough conflict would be like most of the show. Maybe it varies by people, but great films and shows are capable of including conflict almost everywhere, so I think it's completely justified to criticize the show having very few scenes of conflict Conflict is what drives the story forward. Just a few scenes of actual conflict mean the story doesn't have anything driving it and it's going to feel like the show is meandering and would feel meaningless to a lot of people (I mean, not surprised most people were more talking about with easter eggs and larger universe details rather than story/characters ones).

 

Hulk's criticisms about the kids aren't just that he didn't care about them, but that no meaningful relationship between them and Wanda was developed or explored. The kids are cute but they're never characters of their own but rather just plot devices (like with most of the supporting cast here) that are more important to the sitcom gimmick than the actual story. 

 

He also talks about why the mystery box approach doesn't work for most of the article. He's not saying it's bad just because there's a better way to tell the story. It's that the fundamental problems here that make it bad, which he describes in detail, wouldn't exist. 

 

[terrestrial]

1 minute ago, Menor said:

  Hide contents

My main confusion was the whole "magic absorption" thing. It was never really established that Wanda had the power to reabsorb her own magic until she actually did, which made it feel a bit cheap. 

 

Spoiler

I feel like that was part of the use of its own rune-power rule, I actually expected her (like as one of the possibilities) to do something like that a few moments before she was doing it.

 

So the confusion was about one aspect of the magic rules, I don‘t know why, but somehow I thought it was about a direction-impact-colorOfPower thing, maybe I read something elsewhere?

 

What I found a bit surprising was Wanda‘s statement about her having a piece of the stone within her, that is where I am head-scratching about how it got split of and how it got into her.

Maybe based on my self-trained English, I might have misunderstood that part

 

thank you!

[Legion Again]

17 minutes ago, Menor said:

  Hide contents

My main confusion was the whole "magic absorption" thing. It was never really established that Wanda had the power to reabsorb her own magic until she actually did, which made it feel a bit cheap. 

 

Spoiler

I don’t think she had that ability per se, it was just a natural consequence of the runes canceling Agatha’s draining magic. I feel like the scene could have been clearer though.

 

[Menor the Destroyer]

4 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

Spoiler

  Hide contents

Hulk's criticisms about that line about fighting for their home isn't that it's not a logical choice for the characters, more that its an unearned line and them having to "fight for their home" takes away from more important parts of the story so that we can see them do some generic fights (that don't even look as good as the barely competent fights in a usual MCU movie) and then forgets about that and tries to deal with those more important parts as some kind of an afterthought. 

 

And regarding that point about conflict, enough conflict would be like most of the show. Maybe it varies by people, but great films and shows are capable of including conflict almost everywhere, so I think it's completely justified to criticize the show having very few scenes of conflict Conflict is what drives the story forward. Just a few scenes of actual conflict mean the story doesn't have anything driving it and it's going to feel like the show is meandering and would feel meaningless to a lot of people (I mean, not surprised most people were more talking about with easter eggs and larger universe details rather than story/characters ones).

 

Hulk's criticisms about the kids aren't just that he didn't care about them, but that no meaningful relationship between them and Wanda was developed or explored. The kids are cute but they're never characters of their own but rather just plot devices (like with most of the supporting cast here) that are more important to the sitcom gimmick than the actual story. 

 

He also talks about why the mystery box approach doesn't work for most of the article. He's not saying it's bad just because there's a better way to tell the story. It's that the fundamental problems here that make it bad, which he describes in detail, wouldn't exist. 

 

Spoiler

What Hulk says is "lets abandon literally all the character dynamics and conflict we were pursuing in order to punch who are WORSE than us! For, like, reasons! And once we do, everything we were concerned about will just kinda float away without out us directly addressing conflict between us!" Except this didn't actually happen, things were addressed after the fights, and I don't see what's wrong with having a fight scene in the first place, especially because content of said fight scene is what propels Wanda's new goal after she lets go of Westview. 

 

I don't think there were only a "few scenes" of actual conflict anyway. Hulk's definition of conflict seems to be "Wanda and Vision directly talk about their issues." That makes little sense to me. There was plenty of conflict between Wanda and other characters and internal conflict as well. And if the show feeling meaningless to some means there is not enough conflict, then does the show feeling meaningful to some mean that there is enough conflict? This is what I mean when I say the judgment is almost entirely subjective.

 

I disagree that there was no meaningful relationship between the kids and Wanda. I found her (somewhat hypocritical) discussion with them about death to be meaningful, among other moments. 

 

About the mystery box, my point was that the problems Hulk describes are not "fundamental," they are mostly subjective. I mean, the central question in that discussion was "did you really enjoy the mystery?" If I did enjoy it, then naturally I don't think the approach was fundamentally flawed. 

 

[charlie Jatinder]

I stopped caring about what these critics feel about CBM/MCU films day I read them criticising Infinity War cliffhanger ending, as in this doesn't feels like a complete film.

 

There opinion means very little, and not at all on CBMs. Most of them are old blokes. 

[filmlover]

Can we talk about the movie theater in Wanda's fantasy world that only shows Disney movies (The Parent Trap, The Incredibles, Oz the Great and Powerful)? Congrats to King Mickey for uncovering their answer to the WB movie theater from the IT flicks lol.

[Anon]

16 minutes ago, charlie Jatinder said:

I stopped caring about what these critics feel about CBM/MCU films day I read them criticising Infinity War cliffhanger ending, as in this doesn't feels like a complete film.

 

There opinion means very little, and not at all on CBMs. Most of them are old blokes. 

What are you talking about? That was such a small subsection of reviewers. Most reviewers have given MCU movies great reviews (too great in most cases imo). 

[charlie Jatinder]

11 minutes ago, Anon said:

That was such a small subsection of reviewers. Most reviewers have given MCU movies great reviews

Ofc. Even WV ha great review only. I am saying that when I saw a large chunk of critics complaining about that, I realised there view means shit for CBMs.

Edited March 7, 2021 by charlie Jatinder

[SnokesLegs]

30 minutes ago, charlie Jatinder said:

I stopped caring about what these critics feel about CBM/MCU films day I read them criticising Infinity War cliffhanger ending, as in this doesn't feels like a complete film.

 

There opinion means very little, and not at all on CBMs. Most of them are old blokes. 

I never got that Infinity War complaint either, if you consider Thanos to be the main character, it absolutely feels like a complete film. He sets out to collect the remaining infinity stones and wipe out half of life in the universe, and by the end of the film he’s accomplished his goal and relaxing on his farm. It has a beginning, a middle and an end.

[lorddemaxus]

2 hours ago, Menor said:

  Hide contents

What Hulk says is "lets abandon literally all the character dynamics and conflict we were pursuing in order to punch who are WORSE than us! For, like, reasons! And once we do, everything we were concerned about will just kinda float away without out us directly addressing conflict between us!" Except this didn't actually happen, things were addressed after the fights, and I don't see what's wrong with having a fight scene in the first place, especially because content of said fight scene is what propels Wanda's new goal after she lets go of Westview. 

 

I don't think there were only a "few scenes" of actual conflict anyway. Hulk's definition of conflict seems to be "Wanda and Vision directly talk about their issues." That makes little sense to me. There was plenty of conflict between Wanda and other characters and internal conflict as well. And if the show feeling meaningless to some means there is not enough conflict, then does the show feeling meaningful to some mean that there is enough conflict? This is what I mean when I say the judgment is almost entirely subjective.

 

I disagree that there was no meaningful relationship between the kids and Wanda. I found her (somewhat hypocritical) discussion with them about death to be meaningful, among other moments. 

 

About the mystery box, my point was that the problems Hulk describes are not "fundamental," they are mostly subjective. I mean, the central question in that discussion was "did you really enjoy the mystery?" If I did enjoy it, then naturally I don't think the approach was fundamentally flawed. 

 

Spoiler

There's a big difference between having a useless fight, then jamming everything else in the other 10 minutes and using the entire runtime to actually address the conflict. That's what he means by they weren't properly addressed. It's closer to an afterthought than the main focus of the story here, where most of it is an exposition dump and the final episode mostly consists of characters throwing shit at each other. 

 

I'm not really getting your point about it being subjective. Yeah, it's subjective, but that doesn't mean the criticisms are justified (which is not me saying you have to agree with it). Pretty sure there are people who find The Room to be a meaningful film, doesn't exempt it from criticism for not doing literally anything right. And Wanda's interaction with Vision matters the most because the relationship between both characters is the central conflict. Her conversations with Monica or Agatha don't add much to that. And that conflict about whether she should stop torturing Westview residents or save the family isn't introduced until the final episode. Not saying that there's no conflict because there are people who find it meaningless (you got that implication the wrong way round), just that most of the show doesn't utilize conflict for most of its runtime. 

 

I'm not sure what death conversation you're talking about but do we know how the kids view Wanda? Or vice versa? Do we even know anything about the kids themselves? That's what Hulk means by that the relationship isn't built-up well. The kids honestly reminded me of the kid from AI at the start of that film. Doesn't help the kids aren't good actors and can't bring their own personalities to the characters even if the writing has them written as generic as possible. 

 

The central discussion about the use of the mystery-box formula was that there wasn't even a well-defined mystery in the first place. "did you enjoy the mystery?" is just a rhetorical question, not his actual point. This is his actual question here: "What happens if you take the events of episode 8 and put them at the beginning?"

 

1 hour ago, charlie Jatinder said:

I stopped caring about what these critics feel about CBM/MCU films day I read them criticising Infinity War cliffhanger ending, as in this doesn't feels like a complete film.

 

There opinion means very little, and not at all on CBMs. Most of them are old blokes. 

Dude, most critics liked Infinity War lol. And they're mostly guys in their 20s or 30s, not much older than you. You're acting like the guys who did criticize Infinity War were out of touch boomers or something.

[terrestrial]

59 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

Dude, most critics liked Infinity War lol. And they're mostly guys in their 20s or 30s, not much older than you. You're acting like the guys who did criticize Infinity War were out of touch boomers or something.

The most of the acclaimed critics are older than that

[Hatebox]

Show was ok. I see it as an indictment of how generally safe and tame the MCU is that it feels quite out-there in comparison, when really it's nothing that remarkable in of itself.

 

Anyway, can't wait for the adventures of Falcon and Bucky!! (Just kidding.)

 

 

[Menor the Destroyer]

2 hours ago, lorddemaxus said:

Spoiler

  Hide contents

There's a big difference between having a useless fight, then jamming everything else in the other 10 minutes and using the entire runtime to actually address the conflict. That's what he means by they weren't properly addressed. It's closer to an afterthought than the main focus of the story here, where most of it is an exposition dump and the final episode mostly consists of characters throwing shit at each other. 

 

I'm not really getting your point about it being subjective. Yeah, it's subjective, but that doesn't mean the criticisms are justified (which is not me saying you have to agree with it). Pretty sure there are people who find The Room to be a meaningful film, doesn't exempt it from criticism for not doing literally anything right. And Wanda's interaction with Vision matters the most because the relationship between both characters is the central conflict. Her conversations with Monica or Agatha don't add much to that. And that conflict about whether she should stop torturing Westview residents or save the family isn't introduced until the final episode. Not saying that there's no conflict because there are people who find it meaningless (you got that implication the wrong way round), just that most of the show doesn't utilize conflict for most of its runtime. 

 

I'm not sure what death conversation you're talking about but do we know how the kids view Wanda? Or vice versa? Do we even know anything about the kids themselves? That's what Hulk means by that the relationship isn't built-up well. The kids honestly reminded me of the kid from AI at the start of that film. Doesn't help the kids aren't good actors and can't bring their own personalities to the characters even if the writing has them written as generic as possible. 

 

The central discussion about the use of the mystery-box formula was that there wasn't even a well-defined mystery in the first place. "did you enjoy the mystery?" is just a rhetorical question, not his actual point. This is his actual question here: "What happens if you take the events of episode 8 and put them at the beginning?"

 

Spoiler

What I was saying was that the fight wasn't useless, it set up the next direction for Wanda's character. 

 

I disagree that the relationship between Wanda and Vision is the show's central conflict. The central conflict is Wanda's struggle to move past and accept her losses.

 

The death conversation was after Sparky died and they wanted her to bring him back. As far as the points you brought up, I think we have a general idea of how Wanda and the kids view each other. It's not super detailed, but there was enough for me to be invested in that relationship. 

 

I disagree that there wasn't a well-defined mystery. The mystery was "how and why did the Hex come to be?" The hypothetical about placing episode 8 at the beginning was interesting, and that could have possibly made a better show, but it's difficult to compare a hypothetical show to one that actually exists. I fail tto see where Hulk points out any inherent problem with the mystery box. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Menor

[Eric Duncan]

3 hours ago, charlie Jatinder said:

I stopped caring about what these critics feel about CBM/MCU films day I read them criticising Infinity War cliffhanger ending, as in this doesn't feels like a complete film.

 

There opinion means very little, and not at all on CBMs. Most of them are old blokes. 

Dude...shut up.

[charlie Jatinder]

5 hours ago, lorddemaxus said:

Spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

There's a big difference between having a useless fight, then jamming everything else in the other 10 minutes and using the entire runtime to actually address the conflict. That's what he means by they weren't properly addressed. It's closer to an afterthought than the main focus of the story here, where most of it is an exposition dump and the final episode mostly consists of characters throwing shit at each other. 

 

I'm not really getting your point about it being subjective. Yeah, it's subjective, but that doesn't mean the criticisms are justified (which is not me saying you have to agree with it). Pretty sure there are people who find The Room to be a meaningful film, doesn't exempt it from criticism for not doing literally anything right. And Wanda's interaction with Vision matters the most because the relationship between both characters is the central conflict. Her conversations with Monica or Agatha don't add much to that. And that conflict about whether she should stop torturing Westview residents or save the family isn't introduced until the final episode. Not saying that there's no conflict because there are people who find it meaningless (you got that implication the wrong way round), just that most of the show doesn't utilize conflict for most of its runtime. 

 

I'm not sure what death conversation you're talking about but do we know how the kids view Wanda? Or vice versa? Do we even know anything about the kids themselves? That's what Hulk means by that the relationship isn't built-up well. The kids honestly reminded me of the kid from AI at the start of that film. Doesn't help the kids aren't good actors and can't bring their own personalities to the characters even if the writing has them written as generic as possible. 

 

The central discussion about the use of the mystery-box formula was that there wasn't even a well-defined mystery in the first place. "did you enjoy the mystery?" is just a rhetorical question, not his actual point. This is his actual question here: "What happens if you take the events of episode 8 and put them at the beginning?"

 

Dude, most critics liked Infinity War lol. And they're mostly guys in their 20s or 30s, not much older than you. You're acting like the guys who did criticize Infinity War were out of touch boomers or something.

I know that and I didn't said IW was rotten or something. Though gotta admit it may be read like that, but it was midnight so...

 

Anyways what I meant was, "I stopped caring about CBM/MCU when a bunch of them criticised IW for cliffhanger ending"

 

Because that just explained how they had no idea about how things work and they are the reason IW isn't 90+ on RT like EG, despite being much better film.