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7 minutes ago, Jason said:

 


Do you have a credible source? Sorry that I'm skeptical of "sources" told "Fox News".
 

I have read such reports early in February that everything in the lab was destroyed with research staff replaced.

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Just now, A Marvel Fanboy said:

China is tightening its grip on coronavirus research

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01108-y

 


Yes, it's quite disgusting, and quite obvious why. Chinese scientists actually took the lead on identifying the virus's origins in China, both in Wuhan and more broadly from bats in China. Now that Chinese government officials are trying to pretend the virus is from the US, that's a very inconvenient truth, especially coming from Chinese researchers.

One of the ironies of this whole pandemic is that in this thread I fight the "virus is lab-engineered/lab-release" conspiracy theories, and among my overseas relatives I fight the "virus is from the US" conspiracy theories. :wacko:

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38 minutes ago, fabiopazzo2 said:

Italy

‼ ️ DPC Bulletin h17
📅 [16/04]

Positivi positive cases: 106,607 (+1,189)
💀 deaths: 22,170 (+525)
✔️ healed (discharged): 40,164 (+2,072)
TI: 2,936 (-143)

🔴 total cases: 168,941 (+3,786)

3786 new cases 😢

 

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2 minutes ago, A Marvel Fanboy said:

I have read such reports early in February that everything in the lab was destroyed with research staff replaced.

Then it should be easy to find sources to give us....

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Jason said:


Yes, it's quite disgusting, and quite obvious why. Chinese scientists actually took the lead on identifying the virus's origins in China, both in Wuhan and more broadly from bats in China. Now that Chinese government officials are trying to pretend the virus is from the US, that's a very inconvenient truth, especially coming from Chinese researchers.

One of the ironies of this whole pandemic is that in this thread I fight the "virus is lab-engineered/lab-release" conspiracy theories, and among my overseas relatives I fight the "virus is from the US" conspiracy theories. :wacko:

Look, I look at this like any story...the 1st few days of reports are worthless...everyone is getting everything wrong...

Then, I look at what people did and try to assign a why...

Almost no one acts without self-interest (this is why Mother Theresa is a saint...she's the completely rare case)...

 

So, if notes and research are getting trashed, researchers are getting fired, whistle blowers are going missing AND are STILL missing, entire cities are getting shut down before anyone knew anything about this virus (which was never before done in China for a virus)...well, it would seem that there was an idea of what this was and how bad it could be/get instantly...and you tend to get that idea b/c you were researching it...note, I don't think they meant this to get out - I never have...thus, part of the reason for the firings everywhere (China doesn't suffer gross incompetence and negligence)...

 

PS - I also have Chinese relatives in China...they are not fooled by any Chinese propaganda...but nor can they offer insights right now that they might have on what's really going in...info is that tightly controlled now...it's a miracle the riots from a few weeks ago got out...and now, they are back to radio silence on anything of "substance"...

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblowers-speak-out-vanish-2020-2

https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/whistleblowing-coronavirus-doctor-mysteriously-vanishes/

https://www.foxnews.com/world/wuhan-whistleblowers-missing-exposing-coronavirus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8222067/Three-coronavirus-whistle-blowers-remain-missing-two-months-on.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/2-wuhan-whistleblowers-missing-months-after-helping-expose-coronavirus-outbreak-activists-say/ar-BB12H1pK

Edited by TwoMisfits
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15 minutes ago, A Marvel Fanboy said:

China is tightening its grip on coronavirus research

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01108-y

 

You realize that the USA government has done the same thing by forcing all public agencies like the CDC to get everything approved by the administration before its released to the public?  And controls what government expects can go on what tv/radio shows?

 

And while it's harder to muzzle private american experts any organization which receives federal dollars is at risk to lose that funding if they don't tow the administrations line.

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Woof, we’re already well last 33,000 total deaths in the US. 😑😔

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2 hours ago, Plain Old Tele said:

 

Joke is not real though

 

Considering how badly Run Mexico is I think the correct is only Canada.

 

But hey lets make a joke. 

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2 minutes ago, Plain Old Tele said:

Woof, we’re already well last 33,000 total deaths in the US. 😑😔

 

oof yeah, was confused by that number until I realized they changed yesterdays deaths total up to 2,700+

 

New York State had more than 1,000+ deaths alone =/

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Just now, TwoMisfits said:

So, if notes and research are getting trashed, researchers are getting fired, whistle blowers are going missing AND are STILL missing, entire cities are getting shut down before anyone knew anything about this virus (which was never before done in China for a virus)...well, it would seem that there was an idea of what this was and how bad it could be/get instantly...and you tend to get that idea b/c you were researching it...note, I don't think they meant this to get out - I never have...thus, part of the reason for the firings everywhere (China doesn't suffer gross incompetence and negligence)...


I still haven't seen any evidence for the notes and research getting trashed at the research labs, or their reseachers being fired.

We know what whistle blowers were blowing the whistle on, and it wasn't that they thought it was a lab release.

It's simply not true no one knew what was going on when entire cities were being shut down. That happened beginning on January 23, more than three weeks after Li Wenliang blew the whistle, and three days after a leading epidemiologist was sent from Beijing to investigate the epidemic. At that point, even researchers outside China were able to identify this virus was potentially big trouble, just by examining the increase in cases identified by routine screening of travellers. There was plenty of evidence to suggest it was spreading quickly, and was possibly of high clinical severity.

So no, I don't that means they already knew specific details about the virus from prior research. It's completely unnecessary to invoke that explanation.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, TwoMisfits said:

Look, I look at this like any story...the 1st few days of reports are worthless...everyone is getting everything wrong...

Then, I look at what people did and try to assign a why...

Almost no one acts without self-interest (this is why Mother Theresa is a saint...she's the completely rare case)...

 

So, if notes and research are getting trashed, researchers are getting fired, whistle blowers are going missing AND are STILL missing, entire cities are getting shut down before anyone knew anything about this virus (which was never before done in China for a virus)...well, it would seem that there was an idea of what this was and how bad it could be/get instantly...and you tend to get that idea b/c you were researching it...note, I don't think they meant this to get out - I never have...thus, part of the reason for the firings everywhere (China doesn't suffer gross incompetence and negligence)...

 

PS - I also have Chinese relatives in China...they are not fooled by any Chinese propaganda...but nor can they offer insights right now that they might have on what's really going in...info is that tightly controlled now...it's a miracle the riots from a few weeks ago got out...and now, they are back to radio silence on anything of "substance"...

It is correct to be skeptical about propaganda from China’s Government (or the Trump administration for that matter).  Thankfully, the sources discussing origin for COVID-19 is not based on Chinese propaganda, but published in peer reviewed scientific journals from people who know much more about how viruses spread and originate than me or you.


Here are a few you could read before making conspiracy claims originating from “Sources that told Fox News”:


From Nature

“Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.” 
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

 

From Journal of Advanced Research

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090123220300540


From Military Medical Research

https://mmrjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40779-020-00240-0

 

These are not hard to find.  They’re a quick google search away and are much more thorough in explaining how their conclusions are derived than “sources from Fox News”

Edited by The Panda
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2 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

Joke is not real though

 

Considering how badly Run Mexico is I think the correct is only Canada.

 

But hey lets make a joke. 


...it’s a joke. 

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9 minutes ago, AndyLL said:

No.  It is more likely it happened just like all the other SARs type viruses happened... from animal to human.

 

Well that is certain, the question being was it from an animal sold at the market that infected someone working there (or a client that infected people working there) or elsewhere.

 

I am not sure what the opposition you are making there, nothing is suggesting that this is not result of an animal to human case.

11 minutes ago, AndyLL said:

The article that wikipedia statement references has no mention of if he's been to the market or not:

If you look at the lancet article on the question:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext

 

The Dec 1, 2019 of illness on set patient is said to have no known Huana seafood market exposure, if it is the same patient:

The earliest traceable and confirmed patient, the 55-year-old man started experiencing symptoms on 1 December 2019

 

16 minutes ago, AndyLL said:

No.  It is more likely it happened just like all the other SARs type viruses happened... from animal to human.

I am again not sure of the opposition you are making, if it just more likely that imply than something else is quite possible no ? Labs working on SARs caused known leak of it back in the days (some labs was even closed).

 

The fact that it was public and no virus they worked on is matching would make it impossible.

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34 minutes ago, Barnack said:

In the USA it is also not a loan, it is a money giving to the entreprise if you respect the rules of keeping your worker employed and if you use it for mortgage, salary, rent, utility, etc....

 

And the amount is:

Loans can be for up to two months of your average monthly payroll costs from the last year plus an additional 25% of that amount (if the salary is over 100K a year it is maxed to that amount)

 

So for 10 workers that have a payroll of $50,000 US, that would be I imagine around $105,000 US dollar + plus other cost that goes into a payroll that is not salary, like medical insurance. The US plan seem magnitude above the German one, if you are not missing a 0, talking about a weekly payment and do not mean amount by employee.

The money they give to the businesses is out of a certain pot, its for business running costs, like rent. Its split up a bit, means states add, or at least some states add (I am mainly focused on my state). Its meant to give fast aid, till the real programs start.

 

Government whole country’s pot for that alone was 2 weeks back at least 50 billion Euros (USA comparison: all times four is our population count in comparison to the US population count), Bavaria added 10 billion for its business if I remember it right.

Its the fast aid thing for companies/businesses up to I think 500 employees. Some steps are about 250 people, I think there is a difference between country based programs and state based programs.

There are programs for the big ones,... too, but I only know people directly / nearer with at max around 100 workers, so that is for what I am looking to.

 

The employees get at least a part of the money out of another pot,...

Public and private schools and daycare and so on get it out of another pot again,...

The final sum will probably look daunting.

 

The business loans they can get can be as high as you as a business owner think it needs to be, the need caused by the pandemie till a certain date (next 2 or 3 months, I have to check), that’s a first step thing, not a final thing.

Those business loans all company sizes can get, the specialized bank that organizes that has for this special case no limitation (out of the finance ministries website)

That ~ bank for the banks KfW (your bank teams with them) guarantees 80-90%

Up to 3 million Euro the bank-bank takes the work of risk checking, up to 10 million its a simplified organization, ...

 

https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardartikel/Themen/Schlaglichter/Corona-Schutzschild/2020-03-19-Milliardenhilfe-fuer-alle.html

 

If you scroll down till the green graphic, you'll see there is additional programs for new companies, up to 5 year old companies (credit max 1 billion Euro), over 5 year old companies from 25million to ‘unlimited’.

Interest rates vary per size, small gets best rates, ... a small company gets 1%, a mid=sized company gets 1.5%,...

 

I gave the link as you are - as far as I understand it - very into data, details, indepth,...

lots more to find

__blob=

there is e.g. this:

Quote

Liquidity guarantees: Guarantee framework of EUR 400 billion to counteract liquidity bottlenecks of companies and help them to refinance themselves on the capital market.
Capital measures: Credit authorization of EUR 100 billion for direct recapitalization measures to ensure the solvency of companies (in particular the acquisition of shares or silent partnerships, subscription to profit-sharing rights or subordinated bonds).
Refinancing: credit authorization of EUR 100 billion to refinance the Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (KfW) in the execution of the special programmes assigned to it.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

 

The big difference is to me, it will be given to all who correctly ask for it, not like in the US, where the limitation caused an end of that program already.

 

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Posted (edited)

I would say the Chinese Lab Conspiracy has sadly gone mainstream and will be here to stay and become widely believed by many.

 

The reason is there are no facts to back it up however it is a very easy story to sell to people.

 

1. People dont like or Trust China

2. China has lied a lot about Corona

3. People want to blame China for turning their life upside down.

4. There is a weapons lab in Wuhan.

 

 

Pandora's box has been opened...

 

Either China becomes more honest around Corona or this conspiracy Theory is here to stay. 

Edited by Lordmandeep
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12 minutes ago, TwoMisfits said:

Look, I look at this like any story...the 1st few days of reports are worthless...everyone is getting everything wrong...

Then, I look at what people did and try to assign a why...

Almost no one acts without self-interest (this is why Mother Theresa is a saint...she's the completely rare case)...

 

So, if notes and research are getting trashed, researchers are getting fired, whistle blowers are going missing AND are STILL missing, entire cities are getting shut down before anyone knew anything about this virus (which was never before done in China for a virus)...well, it would seem that there was an idea of what this was and how bad it could be/get instantly...and you tend to get that idea b/c you were researching it...note, I don't think they meant this to get out - I never have...thus, part of the reason for the firings everywhere (China doesn't suffer gross incompetence and negligence)...

 

PS - I also have Chinese relatives in China...they are not fooled by any Chinese propaganda...but nor can they offer insights right now that they might have on what's really going in...info is that tightly controlled now...it's a miracle the riots from a few weeks ago got out...and now, they are back to radio silence on anything of "substance"...

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblowers-speak-out-vanish-2020-2

https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/whistleblowing-coronavirus-doctor-mysteriously-vanishes/

https://www.foxnews.com/world/wuhan-whistleblowers-missing-exposing-coronavirus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8222067/Three-coronavirus-whistle-blowers-remain-missing-two-months-on.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/2-wuhan-whistleblowers-missing-months-after-helping-expose-coronavirus-outbreak-activists-say/ar-BB12H1pK

The the Trump administration fired researchers and muzzled whistle blowers.  

 

Yes... China is a brutal authoritarian regime.   That isn't new information.

 

It

1) doesn't make the lab conspiracy any more likely

2) doesn't  excuse other countries failure to properly respond

3) doesn't have any baring on the actions we need to be taking now

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, The Panda said:

Here are a few you could read before making conspiracy claims originating from “Sources that told Fox News”:

 

Seem to be a conflict here, one is talking about a scenario that look like this:

 

  1. After SARS, China put in place a protocol to track animal to human similar virus potential, for example by taking swab from people that eat bats in some villages where it is common from time to time.
  2. In 2019 they take some swab from people with large contact with known to be virus starter animal bring it to the labs and study the many virus they find.
  3. One of them is COVID, one researcher that do not follow protocol correctly infect someone .
  4. Infected person do not work with the public so do not infect many but do infect someone that do, in a very popular market.
  5. That person start the seafood wuhan outbreak.
  6. Because of much fear exist to bring bad news to every higher echelon in that regime somewhere in the chain that fact was removed from record (and must implied that the public access to what was studied in the labs either had some lags or not full, if for example what virus is being studied is put on a public server for all scientific to get just after is genetic is decoded).

 

That conspiracy theory is not saying at all that it is:

a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.

 

Edited by Barnack
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16 minutes ago, AndyLL said:

You realize that the USA government has done the same thing by forcing all public agencies like the CDC to get everything approved by the administration before its released to the public?  And controls what government expects can go on what tv/radio shows?

 

And while it's harder to muzzle private american experts any organization which receives federal dollars is at risk to lose that funding if they don't tow the administrations line.

Lol if you think USA government's grip on the research and censorship on outlets is on the same lovel of that of China...

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