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Coronavirus | COVID-19 | Global Pandemic | PLEASE KEEP DISCUSSION TO THIS THREAD

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1 minute ago, Plain Old Tele said:


I don’t care how corrupt they are at the moment, suspending support in the middle of a worldwide pandemic is beyond the pale — to say nothing of the other work they’re doing with non-COVID stuff at the moment. Not to mention Trump’s actions have nothing to do with their issues (legitimate or otherwise) and everything to do with finding a convenient scapegoat who isn’t him. 

Which is why I said his reasons for not funding them are completely narcissistic. I just haven't found the WHO to be very helpful. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, stephanos13 said:

I can't believe that this man STILL hasn't resigned. Absolutely ridiculous!


The WHO shouldn't have repeated China's early assertions of no human transmission. But the idea that Tedros didn't call it a pandemic sooner was to protect China is unsupported by the timeline. By that point, he and the WHO was sounding plenty of alarm bells that were being ignored by Western governments.

 

6 minutes ago, Noctis said:

He's right, actually. I despise Trump and he's not funding the WHO on a purely narcissistic level...but the WHO has proven itself to be incredibly corrupt. The director knows or at least has strong contacts in China who would express to him how truly dire the situation was but he did not relay that information as urgently or as quickly as possible. Yes, they did warn early, but not to the degree they should have.

 

Also, the WHO is an arm of the United Nations. Anyone who is well versed in diplomacy knows how corrupt the United Nations is not only with their unfair veto status/Security Council, but mostly due to the insane lobbying countries do to bribe officials (like Saudi Arabia becoming one of a handful countries on the human rights committee - what?!). 

 

The United Nations, and the WHO by extension, are institutions that should remain but need a complete overhaul in their structure and policies or else they risk rotting due to lobbyists. 


At the time that the WHO was still following China's line that there was no evidence of human transmission, even the central government in Beijing didn't know how bad the situation was. The WHO should have exercised more caution, but the fact is the WHO responded more quickly and aggressively after January 20 than every government in the world outside of East Asia.

I agree that the UN and WHO need an overhaul in their structure, but I also don't see how Trump defunding the WHO is going to help encourage that. If anything, if Western countries contributed more to the WHO's budget, the WHO wouldn't have to be concerned with the opinions of the many member nations run by dictators.

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Suspending funding for The Who during the middle of a pandemic is moronic regardless if you think they are great scientist or a bunch of morons.

 

 

@Noctis

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Water Bottle said:

Please note that while China's initial reaction to the virus was problematic, this is a global problem. Saying this is "China's fault" shows a very reductionist way of thinking. Almost every country has bungled the response to this virus and it's believed this virus to be a natural mutation. Even if China hadn't messed up, there is still a strong chance that containment of a highly spreadable disease during it's asymptotic period would have still spread across the globe. 

 

As for whether it came from a bat or another animal, it's still folly to blame China. 

I think that is one of the strangest things about this pandemic. How country after country failed to grasp the situation, failed to react in time, despite warnings from very early on. Pandemics, specifically ones from Coroona viruses, have been played through in wargames since SARS. Then warnings came from China (a little late, I'd say, but EASILY within reaction time for western governments - say, Mid-January. South Korea showed us that the threat was serious but that you could handle it with dedication and some ooomph. Then the situation in northern Italy began to deteriorate. Other countries were waiting by the sideline, watching the trainwreck in slow-motion and told themselves "poor Italians; luckily that can't happen to us". Then Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Spain got hit. From Austria, via skiing resorts, the virus floated to northern Europe. The UK and USA were shaking their heads from the sidelines, wondering why those South and Central European countries suddenly decided to shut down their economies - "must have gone crazy, the buggers". Then they got taken, by surprise, of course.

 

I mean, that's not like a tsunami, that's a wave we've been looking at for (in some cases) three months, without putting correct procedures in power. There are some exceptions - New Zealand and (to a lesser degree) Australia seem to have learned something from the South Korea situation. In Europe, Austria, Germany and most nordic countries except Sweden were very late but then, at least, reacted quickly. On Eastern Europe, the verdict is not yet spoken - they were lucky in that they came very late to the game, but have yet to show they can profit from this.

 

Of all western democracies, Italy could maybe be excused since they got really taken by surprise - when they realized it was Covid19 that was responsible for those pneumonia deaths, the virus had already swept through far too many villages AND hospitals. I find very little reason to pardon other governments after the happenings there.

Edited by IndustriousAngel
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6 minutes ago, Jason said:


The WHO shouldn't have repeated China's early assertions of no human transmission. But the idea that Tedros didn't call it a pandemic sooner was to protect China is unsupported by the timeline. By that point, he and the WHO was sounding plenty of alarm bells that were being ignored by Western governments.

 


At the time that the WHO was still following China's line that there was no evidence of human transmission, even the central government in Beijing didn't know how bad the situation was. The WHO should have exercised more caution, but the fact is the WHO responded more quickly and aggressively after January 20 than every government in the world outside of East Asia.

I agree that the UN and WHO need an overhaul in their structure, but I also don't see how Trump defunding the WHO is going to help encourage that. If anything, if Western countries contributed more to the WHO's budget, the WHO wouldn't have to be concerned with the opinions of the many member nations run by dictators.

A major reason why the WHO's behavior has been lackluster. The WHO has an insane amount of contacts on the ground in infected areas...it's common sense that they knew more than they led the world to believe. I'm sure they knew how dire the situation was and how fast it spread. At the end of the day, WHO did not do much to help. 

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7 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

Suspending funding for The Who during the middle of a pandemic is moronic regardless if you think they are great scientist or a bunch of morons.

 

 

@Noctis

Obviously. My point was that the WHO is insanely corrupt and did not help nearly as much as they should have. 

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There is some interesting stuff in the latest podcasts done by the leading experts in Germany and Switzerland respectively:

 

looking at their own data, plus papers from China, it seems like the virus isn't spreading in households as easily as thought before, possibly indicating that either there might be some immunity from other older Corona-viruses, or children are both less likely to get the virus as well as less likely to spread it even if they do. Would obviously be very good news if true, but so far a whole lot more research needs to be done on that matter.

 

 

Another German expert isn't happy about the latest numbers from Germany and would have preferred more strict action instead of lessening the restrictions as is planned right now.

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Just now, George Parr said:

looking at their own data, plus papers from China, it seems like the virus isn't spreading in households as easily as thought before, possibly indicating that either there might be some immunity from other older Corona-viruses, or children are both less likely to get the virus as well as less likely to spread it even if they do. Would obviously be very good news if true, but so far a whole lot more research needs to be done on that matter.

well, anectodal evidence I know, but in my son's office, three people got Covid19 - one (early 40ish) spread it to her 3 kids (under ten) while another did not infect his girlfriend (with whom he was sleeping in the same bed). The 3rd one was solo I think.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, IndustriousAngel said:

I think that is one of the strangest things about this pandemic. How country after country failed to grasp the situation, failed to react in time, despite warnings from very early on. Pandemics, specifically ones from Coroona viruses, have been played through in wargames since SARS. Then warnings came from China (a little late, I'd say, but EASILY within reaction time for western governments - say, Mid-January. South Korea showed us that the threat was serious but that you could handle it with dedication and some ooomph.

There is little excuse especially once Italy officially get it (before that we can argue not being as well connected with Asia or easier to hide from reality), but mid-january make it a bit hard and the WHO declared it a pandemy March 11. With how little some country reacted to this even post first case in Italy, it make loosing 6 days because of the Chinese federal goverment look irrelevant.

 

South Korea a nation much more well prepared started (i.e. almost all the rest of the world would have needed a significantly earlier reaction than them to be as good) quarantine and screen measure for people coming from Wuhan january 3 at the latest, looking at the first known case of many country starting those say january 20 would have been already on the too late side.

 

Some measure would have really paid, if they were put in place late december, first week of january, like the screening and quarantining everyone from Wuhan. Once locally spreading started, you can still gain from travel screen/ban/quarantine but it is far to be has effective than when it is put in place before local transmission started.

 

 

Edited by Barnack

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4 minutes ago, IndustriousAngel said:

well, anectodal evidence I know, but in my son's office, three people got Covid19 - one (early 40ish) spread it to her 3 kids (under ten) while another did not infect his girlfriend (with whom he was sleeping in the same bed). The 3rd one was solo I think.

Did they test to see if they developed immunity (i.e. were infected just never got symptoms) or it show people have resistance to this even if they were never infected from COVID ? That would match what we can suspect from the cruise ship, where only a certain % got infected at all.

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3 minutes ago, Barnack said:

There is little excuse especially once Italy officially get it (before that we can argue not being as well connected with Asia or easier to hide from reality), but mid-january make it a bit hard and the WHO declared it a pandemy March 11.

 

South Korea a nation much more well prepared started (i.e. almost all the rest of the world would have needed a significantly earlier reaction than them to be as good) quarantine and screen measure for people coming from Wuhan january 3 at the latest, looking at the first known case of many country starting those say january 20 would have been already on the too late side.

 

Some measure would have really paid, if they were put in place late december, first week of january, like the screening and quarantining everyone from Wuhan. Once locally spreading started, you can still gain from travel screen/ban/quarantine but it is far to be has effective than when it is put in place before local transmission started.

 

 

mid-January would have been early enough even for Italy if they had started testing. And while the WHO did only declare it a pandemy in March, it was warning all the time that countries should test, test, test and trace, trace and quarantine, so not to have to declare it a pandemy.

 

and, to be honest, the WHO was right. Even in Austria, with first measures on March 6th and full lockdown only from the 16th, we were late but the distancing is working so well, we would still be able to contain the virus. With a pop of roughly 9mil, we have added 126 new confirmed infections today but more people recovered. The number of active infections is dropping day by day and by hard tracing and quarantining, we would still be able to completely eradicate the virus. Sadly, some countries are beyond that point and you can't keep borders closed, so that's not really worth much. But in hindsight, the WHO was right - by testing, tracing and quarantining - taken seriously - we could have gotten rid of that virus. It was reluctance and self-confidence that let us choose not to follow that way.

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9 minutes ago, Barnack said:

Did they test to see if they developed immunity (i.e. were infected just never got symptoms) or it show people have resistance to this even if they were never infected from COVID ? That would match what we can suspect from the cruise ship, where only a certain % got infected at all.

really don't know, antibody tests haven't been widely applied until now thanks to unreliability. They will play a big part in re-opening the country, of course, but it seems results are still too shaky.

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28 minutes ago, Noctis said:

A major reason why the WHO's behavior has been lackluster. The WHO has an insane amount of contacts on the ground in infected areas...it's common sense that they knew more than they led the world to believe. I'm sure they knew how dire the situation was and how fast it spread. At the end of the day, WHO did not do much to help. 

The WHO daily situation reports

 

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/situation-reports

 

People should read the 1st few.

 

They DID warn.  By Jan 23rd everything countries needed to know was publicly known.  

 

The WHO cannot just claim their beliefs as fact.  At least not publicly.  Privately I'm sure they could be more direct.

 

Japan, Thailand, and South Korea, Taiwan all had plenty of information in early January to take action.

 

This historical blaming of the WHO/China for our CURRENT situation gets old.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Panda said:

Addressing this, as well at the post that you had quoted me with before.  This kind of conspiracy theory lacks credibility if there isn't any real evidence that shows this legitimately could have happened.

Obviously, did I ever implied that there was any reason to believe any of that ? I was just trying to give my view of what the article quoted was talking about and correcting a straw man that I saw.

 

I am curious when the US intelligence is looking at the possibility that the virus leaked from a laboratory while stating that it was not made in a laboratory, what type of scenario do you think they are talking about ?

 

Quote

 You can make up all sorts of hypothetical scenarios out of your butt that may seem to make some amount of logical sense you state them in a few sentences without taking in actual context of the information that is actually publicly available

What according to you is the most probable scenario that the US intelligence are looking at when they talk about investigating if it leaked from a laboratory then ? (I will admit total ignorance here)

 

 

This is a bit surrealist, to rewind what happened today:

 

- Someone post an article saying explicitly: US intelligence are looking if the virus leaked from a laboratory, they do know think that it could have been made in one.

 

- Bunch of people respond without having read the article spreading fake news that the US intelligence are looking to see if it was a laboratory made virus (or implying that they did by saying that it was a natural occurence, etc...), they do not receive any warning by any moderator for doing so.

 

- I correct the strawman, saying no, they are not talking about a laboratory made affair and give an example of what they could have possibly in mind (that an issue, not the people spreading the misinformation)

Edited by Barnack
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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Noctis said:

A major reason why the WHO's behavior has been lackluster. The WHO has an insane amount of contacts on the ground in infected areas...it's common sense that they knew more than they led the world to believe. I'm sure they knew how dire the situation was and how fast it spread. At the end of the day, WHO did not do much to help. 


I really don't think the WHO definitively knew in mid-January that the virus was spreading by human contact - at that point the virus simply hadn't spead that far, and while some alarm bells were raised by whistleblowers, the local government had suppressed that information, and we only found out after the fact. I can even believe the central government in Beijing didn't know how bad it was in mid-January, based on their complete lack of action at that point - ie. the central government believed the local authorities who insisted they didn't identify human-to-human transmission.

For that matter, Wuhan's mayor might have even been drinking the Kool-Aid from his officials, because he had went ahead with plans for a world-record potluck dinner on January 18, with 40,000 families participating (!).

Given how many Western countries got taken by surprise with several weeks of advance warning, can we really blame the WHO for getting taken by surprise in the very first country where transmission occurred? Many of the Western countries taken by surprise even do routine surveillance of influenza-like illness, and still missed early signals of a spreading epidemic. So I find it very easy to believe that the WHO genuinely did not definitively know there was human-to-human transmission at that time. (But should have probably said "possible human transmission, still investigating")

Ultimately, I don't think that it matters that the WHO made the wrong call on January 14, because only a week later, they were sounding the alarm bell loud and clear, and Western governments ignored them anyway - for several weeks.

The WHO wasn't able to do much to improve the response in Western countries only because they were ignored - I don't see how that's their fault. And their expertise and development of a reliable testing kit has surely saved lives in the countries relying on those kits. Ironically, that's something the CDC failed to do for several weeks.

Going to repost this timeline comparing the US and WHO responses to the virus:
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/15/trumps-ugly-new-blame-shifting-scam-spotlights-his-own-failures/)

 

Quote

By Jan. 23, the WHO was already warning that coronavirus could “appear in any country,” and urged all countries to be “prepared for containment” and get ready to exercise “isolation” and “prevention” measures against its spread.

 

At around the same time, on Jan. 22, Trump was asked point-blank whether he worried about coronavirus’s spread, and he answered: “No, not at all,” insisting it was just “one person coming from China” and that “we have it totally under control.”

 

And on Jan. 24, Trump hailed China’s “effort” against coronavirus and its “transparency” about it, predicting that “it will all work out well.”

 

So Trump showed less concern about its spread in countries outside China — including in our own — than the WHO did.

 

On Jan. 30, the WHO declared coronavirus a global public health emergency. While WHO was still too credulous toward China’s response, WHO also warned that all countries must review “preparedness plans” and take seriously what was coming.

 

By contrast, on Jan. 30, Trump was directly warned by his Health and Human Services secretary of the threat coronavirus posed. Trump dismissed this as “alarmist.”

 

And on Feb. 2, Trump boasted to Sean Hannity: “We pretty much shut it down, coming in from China.” He hailed our “tremendous relationship” with that country. Trump continued praising China’s handling of coronavirus all through the entire month of February.

 

Edited by Jason
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I apologize to everyone. I’ve been short-tempered today and this is probably not the thread for me to hang out in right now. I’m sorry. 

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17 minutes ago, Jason said:


I really don't think the WHO definitively knew in mid-January that the virus was spreading by human contact - at that point the virus simply hadn't spead that far, and while some alarm bells were raised by whistleblowers, the local government had suppressed that information, and we only found out after the fact. I can even believe the central government in Beijing didn't know how bad it was in mid-January, based on their complete lack of action at that point - ie. the central government believed the local authorities who insisted they didn't identify human-to-human transmission.

For that matter, Wuhan's mayor might have even been drinking the Kool-Aid from his officials, because he had went ahead with plans for a world-record potluck dinner on January 18, with 40,000 families participating (!).

Given how many Western countries got taken by surprise with several weeks of advance warning, can we really blame the WHO for getting taken by surprise in the very first country where transmission occurred? Many of the Western countries taken by surprise even do routine surveillance of influenza-like illness, and still missed early signals of a spreading epidemic. So I find it very easy to believe that the WHO genuinely did not definitively know there was human-to-human transmission at that time. (But should have probably said "possible human transmission, still investigating")

Ultimately, I don't think that it matters that the WHO made the wrong call on January 14, because only a week later, they were sounding the alarm bell loud and clear, and Western governments ignored them anyway - for several weeks.

The WHO wasn't able to do much to improve the response in Western countries only because they were ignored - I don't see how that's their fault. And their expertise and development of a reliable testing kit has surely saved lives in the countries relying on those kits. Ironically, that's something the CDC failed to do for several weeks.

Going to repost this timeline comparing the US and WHO responses to the virus:
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/15/trumps-ugly-new-blame-shifting-scam-spotlights-his-own-failures/)

 

 

I stand corrected in regards to their response, although I don't think as a whole they have been very useful. But thanks for the information. It's always appreciated.

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Posted (edited)

"The President told governors they'll call the shots in their states as he shared guidelines to reopen in phases starting May 1"

 

Like I said. May 1st.

Edited by cdsacken
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