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Wasn't it decided that this was not a second 'Conspiracy thread'? :Gaga:

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Jason said:


The highlighting of this tweet is such cherry-picking. Yes, this tweet was a mistake. But on that same day, the WHO acknowledged that it was possible that there was human-to-human transmission in a press briefing.

It's crazy how much flak the WHO is getting for this one tweet, when less than a week later they were responding more aggressively than any Western country to the virus, in terms of both their communication of how dangerous the virus was, and their actions in developing and preparing test kits.

You know what really, really didn't age well? The fact that Western countries ignored the advice given by the WHO on January 23 for several weeks, when the WHO warned that "countries should be prepared for containment, including active surveillance, early detection, isolation and case management, contact tracing and prevention of onward spread."

Well the WHO saying no need to wear mask but many countries saying otherwise is not helping them either. 

 

 

Personally to me that made me start to distrust advice from the WHO and look at local and national experts instead. 

 

 

Edited by Lordmandeep

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7 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

Personally to me that made me start to distrust advice from the WHO and look at local and national experts instead. 

you know, the WHO isn't a nation. Those ARE national experts - maybe not all of them (there's some admonistration too) but a lot. There's medical doctors, there's experts in health administration, in nursing etc.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, IndustriousAngel said:

you know, the WHO isn't a nation. Those ARE national experts - maybe not all of them (there's some admonistration too) but a lot. There's medical doctors, there's experts in health administration, in nursing etc.

 

 

WHO is a global organization while your local expert is giving advice based on your local situation. 

 

Like it makes no sense to wear a mask if you are in a remote village on the Mongolian Steppe but if you are in the middle of Queens? 

 

So like if your local govt is forcing you to wear a mask the WHO says "nah no need its alright" , I am unsure how does not undermine your personal trust in the WHO guidance around Covid 19. 

 

Like I am not saying the WHO is useless or needs to be defunded or anything stupid like that. I am just saying compared to before COVID 19 my trust in them is reduced. I think that is a 100% reasonable point of view. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lordmandeep

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7 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

Well the WHO saying no need to wear mask but many countries saying otherwise is not helping them either. 

 

 

That is not something is specific to WHO. On the mask issue specifically there has been a lack of consensus from government agencies, health agencies and the scientific community on both the effectiveness of masks for all and the worry that encouraging people to buy masks could potentially leave a shortage within the hospital systems that need them more.


There are many other variable as well.  There’s an economic phenomenon of safety in which its possible for people to feel more safe than they should from a new precaution that actually does increase safety.  This then results in the person taking a disproportionate amount of additional risk, that they wouldn’t have taken otherwise, because of the fact they felt safer.  This leads to phenomenon of studies that produce results such as Seat Belts actually causing more car accident deaths, because people feel safer when wearing them and then drive more recklessly.  This has been modeled as a plausible outcome when introducing new safety features in Economic Decision Theory.  
 

There’s also varying issues on how effective different materials are.  While it doesn’t seem like it can hurt from covering your mouth with certain materials, at the very least if you are out buying groceries it may help in preventing you from spreading the disease, it may just be providing a false sense of security if it’s using a material proven to be ineffective.

 

Fivethirtyeight has a good survey of the issue and why there hasn’t been a clear consensus on public mask usage:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/science-has-no-clear-answers-on-the-coronavirus-face-masks-are-no-exception/amp/

 

The survey is also good at showing an example of how, when there’s lots of uncertainty and limited data, different experts may arrive at different conclusions for some of the more specific social distancing recommendations.  It doesn’t mean neither expert is credible, it means the data was limited in such a way that somebody could reach either conclusion and they’d both be feasibly supportable, given the available information.

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My opinion: WHO cared too much about upsetting China and trusted them too much, leading to a botched early response and bad messages.

 

Also my opinion: they've still acted earlier and better then most of the individual nations, and once it was no longer about China they've done their job well.

 

Also also my opinion: They still go out of their way to ignore Taiwan's existence despite Taiwan having arguably the most successful containment of the disease, and therefore are choosing to operate without valuable information intentionally in order to continue appeasing China 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, The Panda said:

That is not something is specific to WHO. On the mask issue specifically there has been a lack of consensus from government agencies, health agencies and the scientific community on both the effectiveness of masks for all and the worry that encouraging people to buy masks could potentially leave a shortage within the hospital systems that need them more.


There are many other variable as well.  There’s an economic phenomenon of safety in which its possible for people to feel more safe than they should from a new precaution that actually does increase safety.  This then results in the person taking a disproportionate amount of additional risk, that they wouldn’t have taken otherwise, because of the fact they felt safer.  This leads to phenomenon of studies that produce results such as Seat Belts actually causing more car accident deaths, because people feel safer when wearing them and then drive more recklessly.  This has been modeled as a plausible outcome when introducing new safety features in Economic Decision Theory.  
 

There’s also varying issues on how effective different materials are.  While it doesn’t seem like it can hurt from covering your mouth with certain materials, at the very least if you are out buying groceries it may help in preventing you from spreading the disease, it may just be providing a false sense of security if it’s using a material proven to be ineffective.

 

Fivethirtyeight has a good survey of the issue and why there hasn’t been a clear consensus on public mask usage:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/science-has-no-clear-answers-on-the-coronavirus-face-masks-are-no-exception/amp/

 

The survey is also good at showing an example of how, when there’s lots of uncertainty and limited data, different experts may arrive at different conclusions for some of the more specific social distancing recommendations.  It doesn’t mean neither expert is credible, it means the data was limited in such a way that somebody could reach either conclusion and they’d both be feasibly supportable, given the available information.

I would say the major issue with the debate around masks is that some scientists are fixated around proving each other wrong then the public health issue it seems sometimes. 

 

The issue is not so much that masks stop 100% of the virus which is not the goal, it is if masks stop any percentage of the virus. Yes the average person is no expert but an avg person would be like "something is better then nothing" so that is why many people will wear masks regardless of official advice.

 

My point is the WHO could have given guidance around masks with a lot more nuance. 

 

Even Jason said their guidance around masks should had some caveats. 

Edited by Lordmandeep

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26 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

Well the WHO saying no need to wear mask but many countries saying otherwise is not helping them either. 

Have you ever gone to the WHO website and read up on why they they didn't recommend wearing a mask or do you rely on social media for your opinions?

 

Spoiler

No need to answer... the question was rhetorical 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, AndyLL said:

Have you ever gone to the WHO website and read up on why they they didn't recommend wearing a mask or do you rely on social media for your opinions?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

My opinions are based in national and local experts around many advance developed countries recommending or requiring to wear masks.... Thank you very much

 

and do you ever realize the WHO can be wrong around masks? 

 

I have seen local experts do a complete 180 degree turn around masks. 

 

As I said Andy, we wont agree and I doubt most people will ever agree with this guidance. SO pointless in debating it. 

 

You dont wear Masks, I will wear one when I go out shopping.  The end.  

Edited by Lordmandeep
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On reading up on the WHOs relationship with China. Seems they have been trying to get them to open up that's why they have been going soft on them.

 

 

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The biggest reason they can't recommend masks to the public is in many countries there is a shortage of masks. If they recommend it, more people would want to wear masks, but countries like Belgium, Netherlands etc have just enough masks to suply riterement homes and hospitals. (and home nursing). So them telling masks are needed would make is so the public would buy the mask, they would stock them like they did with toilet paper and people in the hospitals woudn't have suffiecient protection.  If humans woudn't be such selfisch *ss wholes they might give better information but as long as people are egotistical and selfserving it's hard to advice masks are needed.

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Republicans let major companies basically steal from PPP even though they don't need it. Even if they double the fund only 10% of requests will be processed with more than half going to larger firms that don't need it. 

 

Audit should be mandatory. Anyone who lied about need be forced to pay it back with a massive fine.

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4 minutes ago, pepsa said:

The biggest reason they can't recommend masks to the public is in many countries there is a shortage of masks. If they recommend it, more people would want to wear masks, but countries like Belgium, Netherlands etc have just enough masks to suply riterement homes and hospitals. (and home nursing). So them telling masks are needed would make is so the public would buy the mask, they would stock them like they did with toilet paper and people in the hospitals woudn't have suffiecient protection.  If humans woudn't be such selfisch *ss wholes they might give better information but as long as people are egotistical and selfserving it's hard to advice masks are needed.

That is what should be the official advice rather then "they dont help" 

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7 minutes ago, Killimano3 said:

My opinion: WHO cared too much about upsetting China and trusted them too much, leading to a botched early response and bad messages.

 

They did not trust much of China's early data.  Anyone reading the daily reports can see that. https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/situation-reports 

 

7 minutes ago, Killimano3 said:

My opinion: WHO cared too much about upsetting China and trusted them too much, leading to a botched early response and bad messages.

 

The WHO relies on other countries to give them data and access.  It's critical to be able to get information from China since is was expected that the next SARs type would come from there.  

 

So yes... the WHO is going to be careful about publicly criticizing China. What do you want them to do?  

 

And people are holding China to different standards then they do their own countries.

 

In the United States we still not really know # of inflected, # of recovered, # of deaths, the RO value, the % of asymptomatic carriers,  the high risk factors (it's different than the flu), why some people have severe symptoms that last a couple of days and some take over a month to get over it. 

 

We don't know any of that after more than 3 months... why do people expect China to have known more before the virus was even identified as a new coronavirus?

7 minutes ago, Killimano3 said:

 

Also also my opinion: They still go out of their way to ignore Taiwan's existence despite Taiwan having arguably the most successful containment of the disease, and therefore are choosing to operate without valuable information intentionally in order to continue appeasing China 

Less than 20 countries recognize Taiwan as a country including the UN and the USA.  These is the absolute worst criticism I hear on social media of the WHO

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5 minutes ago, cdsacken said:

Republicans let major companies basically steal from PPP even though they don't need it. Even if they double the fund only 10% of requests will be processed with more than half going to larger firms that don't need it. 

 

Audit should be mandatory. Anyone who lied about need be forced to pay it back with a massive fine.

Right? I do not care for Massey but for once his griping and voting insistence was semi right cause he called this in spades before the house vote.... sigh and people thought 2008 was a big pad the wealthy money move

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34 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

My opinions are based in national and local experts around many advance developed countries recommending or requiring to wear masks.... Thank you very much

 

and do you ever realize the WHO can be wrong around masks? 

 

I have seen local experts do a complete 180 degree turn around masks. 

 

As I said Andy, we wont agree and I doubt most people will ever agree with this guidance. SO pointless in debating it. 

 

You dont wear Masks, I will wear one when I go out shopping.  The end.  

So the answer was no?  I thought so.

 

And by the way... I do wear a 'surgical mask' when I go out because it can be effective when handled correctly.  

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, AndyLL said:

So the answer was no?  I thought so.

 

And by the way... I do wear a 'surgical mask' when I go out because it can be effective when handled correctly.  

For all the intelligence on this board, we all become rather childish here lately. 

 

🙂

Edited by Lordmandeep

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