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Just now, Porthos said:

This is not good at all.

 

You know what else also causes blood cots?  COVID-19.

 

(someone made a good point that The Pill is something like 300x more likely to cause blood clots than either of these vaccines — and even if that number isn't strictly accurate it does establish the apparent rarity here)

 

Now I will say that there is something of an important wrinkle that this might be affecting women more than men at least if a quick scan of the always-reliable Twitter is right.  And it is absolutely the case that the Medical Establishment (as well as the punditocracy) is more likely to blow off concerns when it comes to women's health than it is men's, which was probably one of the reasons why polls were showing more vaccine hesitancy among women before the vaccination rollout.

 

There is a very long history of folks just not giving as much of a crap when they discover, hey, wow, medicine sometimes works differently on women than it does men.

 

That being said, this is still a massive overreaction.  It's almost certainly why AZ hasn't been approved yet as well.  This is one of the cases where informed consent should be involved.  Let people know of the slightly elevated risks, yes. Absolutely. Don't hide it.

 

But to put a pause?  Well, I understand why the FDA did it, but stuffing the genie back in the bottle when it comes to getting acceptance over AZ and JJ when the inevitable pause button is no longer in effect in the case of JJ might be easier said than done.

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21 minutes ago, cdsacken said:

Honestly that sounds like fear-mongering antivaxxer language even if you didn't mean it to be. That's not remotely true

Sorry if it seemed that way. It was not my intention. I'm pro vaccine, i 'm just a little pessimistic

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FWIW, a scan of Doctor/Medical Twitter seems to think this will be a very temporary pause:

 

 

And, perhaps understandably given their background, most of Doctor/Medical Twitter seems fine with this.

 

However, a large percentage of Sociological/Political Twitter looks to be blasting the fuck out of the FDA much much much more critical given that they think this will lead to vaccine hesitancy increasing, and pointing to the increase in hesitancy over AZ in Europe. 

 

I have my opinions on this (and they aren't hard to figure out), but all I will say is that I hope this pause is a very short one and that the media/political establishment is able to clearly able to discuss just what is going on here and that the message comes through loud and clear to the general public in the US.

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18 minutes ago, titanic2187 said:

Are they any close to detect which ingredients that cause the blood clot? 

Not that I have read anywhere, there is a link I posted further back in the thread that contains a lot of info.

 

Seems it's triggering an auto immune response. Generating antibodies that attack the platelets.

 

There is a lot of lingo in there I don't fully understand.

 

@Jason could probably explain it better than me.

Edited by AndyK
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Great idea to freak a bunch of people out for no reason at all. Good lord. Chances are astronomically low. 
 

btw got the J&j vaccine yesterday

Edited by Cookson
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3 hours ago, Maggie said:

Sorry if it seemed that way. It was not my intention. I'm pro vaccine, i 'm just a little pessimistic

I get it but vaccines will prevent the severe conditions even if they test positive. Boosters will only strengthen it. That's all. Too much doom and gloom about covid. During spring break I saw tons of 5k death daily tweets. Not a chance in hell.

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6 minutes ago, Cookson said:

Great idea to freak a bunch of people out for no reason at all. Good lord. Chances are astronomically low. 
 

btw got the J&j vaccine yesterday

I agree. But more cases could come in the next 12 days and make it more like 1/500.000.

 

Still not a reason to suspend it though. I have faith that J&J jabs will happen soon again everywhere

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On 4/12/2021 at 10:00 PM, AndyK said:

Spoke too soon....

 

 

So it turns out this outbreak included a self contained care home where both residents and staff were affected.

 

Some were vaccinated, some not, the vaccine was mainly one dose of AZ.

 

The # of cases and doses were published with accuracy by the BBC

 

This allowed the vaccine efficacy to be calculated against the SA variant with very encouraging results.

 

You can follow the thread to see how its worked out.

 

 

Edited by AndyK
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On 4/13/2021 at 2:31 PM, titanic2187 said:

Are they any close to detect which ingredients that cause the blood clot? 

On 4/13/2021 at 2:43 PM, AndyK said:

Not that I have read anywhere, there is a link I posted further back in the thread that contains a lot of info.

 

Seems it's triggering an auto immune response. Generating antibodies that attack the platelets.

 

There is a lot of lingo in there I don't fully understand.

 

@Jason could probably explain it better than me.

 

It's very unlikely that any of the non-medical ingredients in the AZ or J&J vaccines could be causing the blood clots. They're basically all fairly generic small molecules that are used in plenty of other vaccines/medicines as stabilizers/emulsifiers etc.

It does indeed seem that in a very small proportion of individuals (1 in 250,000 to 1 in 100,000) the AZ vaccine and now presumably the J&J vaccine cause anti-PF4 (platelet factor 4) antibodies to be generated, causing what is being referred to as "vaccine-induced (pro)thrombotic (immune) thrombocytopenia" - VITT or VIPIT for short.

In some portion of those individuals, blood clots form in places they otherwise very, very rarely occur. (For example, the brain clots known as cerebral venous sinus thrombosis - which was what was first identified as having an unusually high frequency after AZ vaccination.)

In the aforementioned link that was posted, three possibilities are proposed for why the anti-PF4 antibodies are being generated in the affected individuals:

1) Some number of the adenovirus particles are breaking up and releasing free DNA. Free DNA is negatively charged, helping it to bind to the positively charged platelet factor. Free DNA is also immunogenic (our own DNA is always bound to proteins inside the nucleus), so the complexing with PF4 ends up (rarely) causing anti-PF4 antibodies to be generated.

2) Anti-PF4 antibodies are pre-existing and the immune response to vaccination is causing them to be boosted. (The article doesn't mention this, but this fails to explain why we see this for the AZ vaccine and not other vaccines. Not impossible, if it were a dosing issue, but with J&J also now having an issue I think this is less likely as a primary cause.)

3) Some antibodies generated against the RBD of the coronavirus are cross-reactive with PF4. This would mean any COVID vaccine would cause the clotting disorder, and so far no cases have been seen with the tens of millions of Pfizer/Moderna vaccinations. (The article doesn't say this explicitly but I think this possibility can essentially be excluded now.)

There is another possibility (which I'll number "4") not explicitly mentioned in the article (somewhat implied, I've seen it explicitly stated in other sources):

4) Some antibodies generated against the ad5/ad26 adenoviral vector are cross-reactive with PF4. Like 1) above, this explanation would be consistent with the AZ and J&J vaccines causing VITT but not Pfizer/Moderna. Unlike 1) it would suggest the problem could be specific to the adenoviral vectors rather than any DNA-based viral vector vaccine.

No other viral vector vaccine has been administered to hundreds of thousands of people before, so it's difficult to resolve between 1) and 4) at this time.

Late edit: As pointed out below, Sputnik uses both the ad5 and ad26 viral vectors being used by AZ and J&J, respectively. Amended post above to include ad26 (originally only mentioned ad5).

Edited by Jason
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8 hours ago, Jason said:

 

4) Some antibodies generated against the ad5 adenoviral vector are cross-reactive with PF4. Like 1) above, this explanation would be consistent with the AZ and J&J vaccines causing VITT but not Pfizer/Moderna. Unlike 1) it would suggest the problem could be specific to the ad5 vector rather than any DNA-based viral vector vaccine.

No other viral vector vaccine has been administered to hundreds of thousands of people before, so it's difficult to resolve between 1) and 4) at this time.

Thanks Jason, should also note that Sputnik is based on the same technology and there are reports that it also is causing issues.

 

Looks like we may have to dump this technology once the pandemic is over.

 

Hopefully Novavax will come to our rescue very soon as this does not rely on a host virus.

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31 minutes ago, AndyK said:

Thanks Jason, should also note that Sputnik is based on the same technology and there are reports that it also is causing issues.

 

Looks like we may have to dump this technology once the pandemic is over.

 

Hopefully Novavax will come to our rescue very soon as this does not rely on a host virus.

CureVac is the same Tech. We hopefully get them soon. Do you have these on order?

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43 minutes ago, fmpro said:

CureVac is the same Tech. We hopefully get them soon. Do you have these on order?

CureVac have partnered with the UK government to build production facilities in the UK.

 

The Vaccine Task Force force did a good job spreading the bets over 4 different technologies, CureVac is mRNA.

 

The 4 main manufacturers in the UK are

 

AstraZeneca

Novavax

Valneva

CureVac

 

 

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Its official. Denmark suspends AZ and will not use it going forward

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50 minutes ago, fmpro said:

Then AZ shouldn't rush to give EU their doses, put them last in line. They paid less and won't be a future customer so just burn the bridge and use the time and resources on other regions. They've given AZ more grief than its worth

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2 minutes ago, Chicago said:

Then AZ shouldn't rush to give EU their doses, put them last in line. They paid less and won't be a future customer so just burn the bridge and use the time and resources on other regions. They've given AZ more grief than its worth

I agree. But they have a contract and breaking that could have serious consequenses for AZ

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4 minutes ago, fmpro said:

I agree. But they have a contract and breaking that could have serious consequenses for AZ

They can still get their goods, just last. They have already slandered their company enough

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1 minute ago, Chicago said:

They can still get their goods, just last. They have already slandered their company enough

As long as they hold up their end of the contract i have no problem with that

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