Star Wars: The Bad Batch | Disney+ | Final Season premieres February 21st!

[Fullbuster]

1 hour ago, Porthos said:

 

I'm not gonna jump down your throat here, but I must admit you are hitting one of my major pet peeves. 

 

Just what IS filler in your mind?

 

I won't put any words in your mouth, or try to answer for you.  Just... Just so you know, I detest the word "filler", but I wanted to see what you meant by that before I try to respond to any of your points.  

 

I suspect I know part of what you're going to say as you alluded to it already, but I wanted to see if you could elaborate on it some more.

 

1 hour ago, Porthos said:

BTW, I want to make it clear, that if you (or anyone else) finds the show too slow paced, that's fine! Really.  If you are finding some of the arcs a bit on the boring side, I won't complain.

 

It's just... I really, REALLY, REALLY hate the term "filler".

 

(almost as much as I hate the phrases "Deus ex Machina" or "Mary Sue". )

 

EDITED TO ADD:::

 

I promise I'm going somewhere with this and that it's not just coz I'm a tad cranky coz it was 111 degrees here in Sacto. 

 

(well it is partially that, but I absolutely swear I'm going somewhere with this.  Promise!  But I need some clarification from Fullbuster before I head into the direction I want to go here)

 

I traumatized poor Porthos today lol

 

Anyway, for me a filler is basically an episode going sideways, not following the main plot. In that case an episode not being about Crosshair or people wanting to capture Omega.

 

You'll probably tell me that the term filler is terrible here because these episodes not following the main plot still delve into the personalities of the main cast (and particularly Omega improving as a character) or doing some important world building that might be important in the grand scheme of things or future seasons. I don't disagreee with that notion but I wish they'd at least space them out, a balance between main plot and fil..."alternative story-telling"

[Porthos]

2 hours ago, Fullbuster said:

 

 

I traumatized poor Porthos today lol

 

No, the 111 degree heat with one of my air conditioners being busted traumatized me.  

Quote

You'll probably tell me that the term filler is terrible here because these episodes not following the main plot still delve into the personalities of the main cast (and particularly Omega improving as a character) or doing some important world building that might be important in the grand scheme of things or future seasons. I don't disagreee with that notion but I wish they'd at least space them out, a balance between main plot and fil..."alternative story-telling"

 

AHA! Not exactly, no.   

 

Yes, I do detest the term "filler" because it does allegedly only concentrate on the so-called "main plot(line)" while ignoring the, IMO, equally important character arcs.  Especially emotional arcs. 

 

Like, take the episode where Wrecker's chip activated.  Would that episode have worked nearly as well if they hadn't taken the time to set up Omega's and Wrecker's relationship?  I tend to think not.  Would the standoff between Hunter and Cad Bane, and Hunter's eventual loss to Bane, have worked as much if we didn't get a sense of how much Hunter truly cared for Omega?  Again, I don't think so.

 

IMO, I think there is exactly one episode so far that might be called "filler" if I was being generous, and that's the one before this (the one where the Bad Batch was split), but even there at least half of it was devoted to continuing Omega's emotional journey.

 

But here's the thing... Just because an episode is trying to set emotional stake/work on a character arc, doesn't mean it is succeeding at that.

 

I was struck by both you and @Menor saying that you didn't feel as much of an emotional connection to the characters as you wished (you put it as the episodes weren't as emotionally powerful, but I tend to think this is more or less the same thing), which I felt was pretty odd, as I personally am pretty emotionally invested in them.  As I got to thinking though, that meant that the episodes that whose existence was, at least in part, devoted to making you care about the character's relationships weren't working as well as they should for you.

 

See, this is why I don't view these episodes as "filler".  To me, if there even is such a thing as a "filler" episode, it is one that has absolutely no resonance on any level to any sort of plot, arc, storyline (including unknown future ones).  Hell, if an episode simply "exists just so a cool thing can happen", then it still ain't filler.  To me, "filler" is when it's there to pad out a season and nothing more.  That was the OG definition of "filler episode" and I rather think it only works in such a context.

 

But just because something isn't a filler episode, doesn't mean it worked for you.  Just because a creator feels an episode is necessary to further a character arc mean that they succeeded at that. Put simply, an episode whose main existence is to get you to care about an ongoing character arc can fail just as much as an episode which exists to further a main plotline can fail if it doesn't make any sense or doesn't really advance the plot to your satisfaction.

 

That's why I didn't particularly care about your complaints about pace or other such things, though I do disagree.  Part of an episode's function is to get you to care on some level, and if it doesn't fully do that, it failed on some level. Partially at least.  I just tend to think that folks don't put as much thought into why the episodes which might be more devoted to working on character arcs were unsatisfactory and so they go for a term like "filler" or "boring".  Much like the term "deus ex machina" gets trotted out for "episode ended with a surprise I didn't like".

 

...

 

"filler" just makes my teeth ache though. So so sooooo much.  

 

So anyway, that's why I wanted to ask you what you meant by "filler".  It's because I wanted to tie that in with your comment about not episodes not having as much of an emotional punch as you wished. and then make the observation that the episodes which were supposed to get you to connect with the characters didn't work as well as they should.

 

Which... Fair enough.

 

====

 

Now, yes yes, I get your point about wanting episodes that work on both the so-called main plot and character arcs. Only so many minutes in a episode for this type of series though.  Perhaps these would be working better for you as 50 minute episodes where they is more time to breath and focus on multiple things — if so, complain to Disney, not me.  Still, ultimately I wanted to tie in your complaint about "filler" episodes and lack of an emotional punch, as I think they are a pretty closely related phenomenon.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Porthos

[Porthos]

Yes, I went on a screed and wrote a wall-of-text there.

 

GUILTY AS CHARGED.   

 

What can I say?  House is finally cool enough where my brain can function, and it wanted to make up for lost time.  

 

(plus I think the basic concept of "filler" is interesting and worthy of discussion — and I wanted to say that even if I don't like the term "filler", I 100% can understand why some folks want to use the term, and I wanted to explore that a bit)

(Well, okay — more than a bit. GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY )

Edited July 11, 2021 by Porthos

[Cap]

There is one music cue In the last episode that got me more emotional than everything else combined. That note hit, and I was screaming

[Cap]

There is one music cue In the last episode that got me more emotional than everything else combined. That note hit, and I was screaming

[4815162342]

6 hours ago, Porthos said:

Yes, I went on a screed and wrote a wall-of-text there.

 

GUILTY AS CHARGED.   

 

What can I say?  House is finally cool enough where my brain can function, and it wanted to make up for lost time.  

 

(plus I think the basic concept of "filler" is interesting and worthy of discussion — and I wanted to say that even if I don't like the term "filler", I 100% can understand why some folks want to use the term, and I wanted to explore that a bit)

(Well, okay — more than a bit. GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY )

 

I think in terms of this show the term "filler" is better replaced by the term "story of the week", where the A plot of the episode does not advance the main plot of the show, but it usually advances in some manner the particular arc of at least one character.

 

Case in point, the "Common Ground" episode was a Story of the Week episode in that it did not advance the main plot forward, but it advanced character arcs forward, such as the Batch learning they're gonna have to work with former enemies in some capacity, and Omega proving herself to the others and Cid with her dejarik playing indicating her (in some form) grasp of strategy and tactics. It also developed the show's setting by showing how the Empire is wrapping its tentacles around formerly dissident/recalcitrant worlds (as also shown by Friday's episode)

 

 

Rampage is easily the most "story of the week" episode, but even it advanced things by giving Omega her Bow weapon that she is becoming more proficient in

Edited July 11, 2021 by 4815162342

[Menor the Destroyer]

I don't think of it as filler, rather, I just feel like the relationships among the crew should be fleshed out better. At this point in Rebels I felt like I had a good sense of the dynamics between everyone and was invested in them as a team. In this show, while I like all the characters involved, I don't have a super good idea of the relationships beyond Wrecker/Omega. And the characters often seem to be along for the ride and don't have many clear goals or motivations beyond escaping the bad guys and protecting Omega. 

[Cap]

"Filler Episode" will always be an anime term for me, lol.  

 

That last episode was so good.  I'm not really connecting with this show the way I did TCW or Rebels, but there's no Ahsoka or Hera here.  Not that's a bad thing.  Different strokes for different folks.  Cause I think it's just a taste thing.  Show's been great, and the animation is gorgeous.  I just miss the expansive analogy verse we got from Clone Wars.  Hopefully some of those characters will pop up again.  There is one that I'm like IF WE DON'T SEE HIM THERE'S NO POINT!

[4815162342]

1 hour ago, Cap said:

"Filler Episode" will always be an anime term for me, lol.  

 

That last episode was so good.  I'm not really connecting with this show the way I did TCW or Rebels, but there's no Ahsoka or Hera here.  Not that's a bad thing.  Different strokes for different folks.  Cause I think it's just a taste thing.  Show's been great, and the animation is gorgeous.  I just miss the expansive analogy verse we got from Clone Wars.  Hopefully some of those characters will pop up again.  There is one that I'm like IF WE DON'T SEE HIM THERE'S NO POINT!

 

The odds of Hondo showing up at some point are extremely high

[Menor the Destroyer]

TCW is a different animal entirely but I do think there is a difference between this show's approach and Rebels in a way that goes beyond just taste. For example, in Rebels S1, there were a lot of episodes where the team was split up and that allowed a greater focus on specific characters (Zeb and Ezra stealing the fruit, Hera and Sabine on the wildcat planet, Kanan and Ezra also on the wildcat planet). I really liked those episodes and they made me more invested in the show. In Bad Batch, there are a lot fewer moments like that. I think Episode 3 is easily my favorite of the "normal" episodes (excluding 1 and 8, since those were the premiere and midseason finale and so were packed with climactic moments) because it was closer in structure to this. Hunter and Omega got a nice subplot learning to work together, and it was contrasted really well with Crosshair's development. There was an appropriate level of focus on the individual characters. Contrasting that to something like Episode 10, Omega had a nice subplot but the mission on Raxus felt pretty much irrelevant to any of the characters involved. Even though Echo and Wrecker were suspicious of the Separatists, there wasn't enough focus on their viewpoints to make their change feel impactful.  I also don't quite understand why Crosshair got a POV subplot in Episode 3 and hasn't gotten one since, even though his material was some of the strongest in the show, and he has gone through things since then that are worth exploring.

 

Obviously there don't have to be full episodes dedicating to establishing characters for this to work, and I think Bad Batch has done some good work in the background, like having nice little moments between Wrecker and Omega, Echo training Omega with the bow, and other little touches like that. But it still feels like the show is holding back for some reason.

 

Now, I still like the show. I'm not saying this makes the show awful or anything but I do think the overall approach could be improved. 

 

Moving beyond criticisms, I am very excited for this Ryloth storyline. With the good setup in "Devil's Deal" I think it's the perfect time to do an arc for at least 3 episodes. There is a lot of potential in having the Bad Batch fighting alongside Cham and the Twi'leks, especially because it will give them a clearer goal than they've had in a while, and it could get them to consider their options beyond just mercenary work. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Menor

[Porthos]

As implied in the last episode

Spoiler

The chip control is not absolute.  At least not in all clones.

 

Which has... interesting implications for Crosshair if he's being an asshole and it's not entirely due to the inhibitor chip. 

 

Could be that control wears off slightly over time.  Could be that it was mostly centered around Order 66 and the immediate aftermath and clones were more or less going with the flow lately.  Could be ongoing but enough clones had enough differing life experience that as Order 66 gets further in the rear view mirror and the impetrative of killing Jedi gets further into the past, more of the old personality resurfaces.

 

Could be lots of things.

 

Loss of control of clones, even some of them, could also be a reason for why Stormtroopers were eventually brought in.  Lots of different directions this could go and I'm interested to see just which angle is chosen and any fallout that might occur.

 

One thing is for sure.  I doubt this is the last we've seen of Captain Howzer.  

 

(might even be checking up on him and his squadmates to see if any of them have defective-ish chips.  If they don't and in fact their inhibitor chips are working just fine, I don't think the Empire would be too pleased to discover that)

 

[4815162342]

Spoiler

I expect we'll see Omega and Hera interact again in the future.

 

I also expect to see the trickle down ramifications of Howzer's opposition spread through clone ranks

 

[Menor the Destroyer]

I liked this episode a lot. Really well directed and visually beautiful. The character interactions were all really well-done and the action was really fun as well. 

Spoiler

Howzer is MVP of course. As Porthos said that speech gave a lot more clarity as to the exact extent of control that the inhibitor chips give. 

 

The ending has me really pumped for next week. Crosshair does appear a bit more conflicted now after Howzer's speech. 

 

[Darth Lehnsherr]

On 7/16/2021 at 5:42 PM, Porthos said:

As implied in the last episode

  Hide contents

The chip control is not absolute.  At least not in all clones.

 

Which has... interesting implications for Crosshair if he's being an asshole and it's not entirely due to the inhibitor chip. 

 

Could be that control wears off slightly over time.  Could be that it was mostly centered around Order 66 and the immediate aftermath and clones were more or less going with the flow lately.  Could be ongoing but enough clones had enough differing life experience that as Order 66 gets further in the rear view mirror and the impetrative of killing Jedi gets further into the past, more of the old personality resurfaces.

 

Could be lots of things.

 

Loss of control of clones, even some of them, could also be a reason for why Stormtroopers were eventually brought in.  Lots of different directions this could go and I'm interested to see just which angle is chosen and any fallout that might occur.

 

One thing is for sure.  I doubt this is the last we've seen of Captain Howzer.  

 

(might even be checking up on him and his squadmates to see if any of them have defective-ish chips.  If they don't and in fact their inhibitor chips are working just fine, I don't think the Empire would be too pleased to discover that)

 

Spoiler

I think this gives Rampart the proof and evidence to expand Operation War Mantle and ultimately usher in the era of stormtroopers. 

 

[Porthos]

48 minutes ago, Darth Lehnsherr said:

  Hide contents

I think this gives Rampart the proof and evidence to expand Operation War Mantle and ultimately usher in the era of stormtroopers. 

 

 

Makes me think...

Spoiler

The next two episodes are titled "Infected" and then "War Mantle"

 

What if Infected isn't talking about a biological infection, but clones "infected" with the idea that they shouldn't be serving Imperials anymore.  Or "infected" with Free Will, perhaps? 

 

Oh, there probably will be an actual infection storyline of some sort or another.  But it kinda tickles my fancy to think there might be an secondary meaning to the title "Infected".

 

As for Project War Mantle, I also wonder if the Stormtrooper program is too obvious.  We did see those funky proto-Dark Troopers in the first episode.  Maybe War Mantle is about those funky looking droids we saw there instead of the more obvious Stormtrooper program.

 

Or maybe not on both counts.  But does tickle my fancy to think that these next two episodes tie in a bit to Howser's actions here.

 

[Porthos]

Find someone who loves you as much as 

Spoiler

Lucasfilm loves to tell creepy bug stories. 👍

 

[Menor the Destroyer]

Ok episode. 

Spoiler

I liked Roland and the mineshaft firefight was cool, but the bugs felt kinda tame. Didn't really sense much threat from them. 

Next week is "War Mantle", guessing from the title that one will be pretty intense. 

[Porthos]

Spoiler

 

[Darth Lehnsherr]

Yep this episode is what I've been waiting for 

[Menor the Destroyer]

Yeah I quite enjoyed this one, good action and sets up what should be a great episode next week.