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Eric Crowe

***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS*** BLACK WIDOW SPOILER THREAD ***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS***

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1 hour ago, charlie Jatinder said:

It was great idea. Needed better visuals and action. It was fine till Nat was talking with Dreykov after that it all went to shit.

Yeah, to be honest, once Nat's plan was revealed, a lot of the tension left the film especially since the plan faced only minor obstacles the rest of the way. Dreykov and Taskmaster were defeated too easily. 

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After the first watch in cinemas I was surprised to see people mention the CGI. After second viewing in cinemas I still didn’t spot anything that bothered me. 
 

I wonder if this is a case of cinema vs home for some people, as well as personal taste obviously. 
 

There was no “Mark Ruffalo’s head in the Hulk Buster” moment, which is a notorious low point for the whole of the MCU. 

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Saw in cinemas, thought the CG was pretty bad, even for the MCU. Worst moment was that Taskmaster APC coming around the corner. Straight out of Uncharted 4.

 

I didn't mind all the skydiving/explosion stuff in the finale, that stuff is expected so it doesn't bother me (and I can't deny there's something visually stimulation about Taskmaster putting her sword in a peice of building and sliding along it). CG double in a hand to hand fight was disappointing. 

 

I for one loved the Taskmaster reveal (Tied in with the themes of the film and somewhat heartbreaking), just thought the character was sorely underused and not portrayed as threatening enough. 

 

I did enjoy the film overall but all the confusing choices in the 3rd act leave a real bad taste in your mouth, especially since it's pretty solid before that. 

Two flashbacks to Weisz and Johansson explaining the plot. 

The narrative device of pheromones so you can't hurt me is such a weird obstacle to overcome and feels like at the very least it should have been introduced earlier. 

The cut to black and two weeks later with ZERO explanation 

The post-credits which is setting up an incredibly contrived conflict and is out to dumb down Yelena's character. If this isn't resolved in one scene in the Hawkeye show I'm going to be so annoyed. 

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Saw it today. It was mid-afternoon on a Sunday, so I missed the real cosplay crowd. The good news is that there were only TWO "gigglers" in the small crowd. The overly ticklish, human laugh track bulk of the Marvel Studios faithful 🙂. That will burst out laughing at all The jokes, funny or not. The reason Marvel keeps the gags coming, and why they'll never get an oscar 🙂.

 

The bad news is the two gigglers chose to sit RIGHT behind me 🙂. Red Gaurdian trying to fit in his old suit, the pig, HAHA HEE HEE!!! Okay...it was a joke 🙂...they were in an intoxicated giggle even when there wasn't any jokes.

 

Anyway, the old Captain America magic 🙂! A trained assassin only aims for your shield and not your exposed legs 😂!! The only thing Black Widow could aim at was TaskMaster's tiny shield in the initial encounter 😂!

 

Speaking of TaskMaster, he (she) had a Terminator walk, and a Jason/Michael Myers head tilt, when she sees another human 😂! She was badass though. 

 

So Black Widow's little sister will now be a villain in the Hawkeye Disney+ series?! 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 7/10/2021 at 7:02 AM, Valonqar said:

This was so much fun but third act sticks like a sour thumb especially in contrast to the marvelous opening with the "family" being hunted down by the good guys, only to jump from that frying pan into the fire when Dreykov collected the girls. I thought it was a great thing to show the other side as normal family people. Also establishes the dynamic, with young Nat as a capable protector of young Yelena and "daddy" being the girls' favorite.

 

Nat, Yelena, Alexei and Melina were great and played off each other so well. Since one of 2 themes was daddy issues, there were quite a few emotional moments between Alexei and the girls. His pride for their killing skills  :bravo: got a lot a of laughs, as well as when Yelena mis-named his oft-repeated heroic alter-ego as Crimson Protector :hahaha:. "It's...Red Guardian". 

Yelena was fantastic. Silly, sassy, funny, badass, vulnerable, just well-rounded character that immediately popped. I felt that the movie's title applied more to her, as an origin story, than as the closure of Nat's. She gets to kill the villain and while Nat got to reconcile with her past in the form of freeing the (largely nameless, who-cares, very non-Russian) Widows including the Taskmaster, that felt anti-climactic. Taskmaster was just blah and while she was supposed to be sympathetic on paper, the movie really didn't care whether she was or not. The focus was the family which was the right decision. Taskmaster and her evil dad were just on the margin of the plot to justify action and provide daddy issues parallel but that was really it.

 

The third act...this is where director with vision/creativity (think GOTG's Dance-off) or at least an imaginative set piece (think Thomas the Tank Engine from Ant Man) can make a difference. Unfortunately, BW has only a competent workman-like director and production designer who failed to rise above the constrains of formulaic big bang finale. This was just bad, been there done that (another hovercraft fight/destruction, really?)  compounded by the terrible CGI. What's worse, the moment that was meant to be emotional (Yelena is knocked out and falling down while Nat plunges herself to catch her) is now a twitter meme. Also, too much was going on to resonate. The movie had Red Mist if I'm not mistaken as the McGuffin until we learned about impossibly silly WTF-is-that smell McGuffin. So the villain basically served as the Mothership Trope (Kill the villain and all Widows wake up from their programming or something?). Except that Taskmaster because she needed to be personally freed by Nat who once almost killed her. Whatever. I think that big part why the third act didn't work is that villain and supposed sympathetic villain were so bad and this is the part of the movie that inevitably focuses on them.

 

Which means the first and second act where the villain's were at the margin of the plot, only popping up to provide action, were great. I loved the return of Mission Impossible "faces" (great swap between Nat and Melina). Anything with Nat and Yelena cause the latter is such a hoot. Fight scenes had weight to them and I honestly don't mind that stunt doubles were obvious because I'll take a weighty fight over weightless CGI one any time. 

 

All in all, I think the movie kept the focus on the family in particular the sisters, which was the right thing to do. That made it very relatable and I think WOM will be strong despite third act warts. I think that they had a good idea with Nat liberating the Widows but didn't have a good story for it. In fact, Smell-o McGuffin made it ridiculous. Also, it's hard to make the liberation resonate when the Widows who aren't Yelena are all just redshirts. 

 

Closing credits: like I said already, Yelena believing that Hawkeye killed Nat strikes me as drama for the sake of drama. The audience knows that isn't the case so why make this character dumber than the audience? Oh and Valentina thinks Hawkeye is a cutie. :hahaha:

 

Question for comic book fans: I hear a lot of talk about something called Thunderbolts that would have Yelena, Walker, Zemo, Valentina on the team among other characters. They say closing credits confirm it's happening. Can you explain Thunderbolts more?:)

 

Ok the Thunderbolts are a team of anti-heroes and villains led by Gen. Ross (the team is named after him)... They mostly do wetwork missions... Think Suicide Squad but without the implanted explosive that will kill them and a lot more red costumes

 

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5 hours ago, Reddroast said:

Ok the Thunderbolts are a team of anti-heroes and villains led by Gen. Ross (the team is named after him)... They mostly do wetwork missions... Think Suicide Squad but without the implanted explosive that will kill them and a lot more red costumes

 

Thank you! I can see MCU make at least a show if not a movie series out of it. 

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The exploding red room got to be silly but I didn't have a problem with the Feminism or the elaborate big boss scheme. It wasn't subtle or realistic but I'm glad the ugly nature of misogyny and the patriarchy are explored in a blockbuster.

 

I thought the action for the first two acts was pretty intense, I love the mix of dark/light elements within the family dynamics, and like I said I like the symbolism.

 

I expected the worst with Taskmaster and it wasn't so bad. They took away the characters charm and mustache twirling autonomy for the sake of the plot but I thought she was a force of nature to be reckoned with and she was fun to watch.

 

Overall, I'd say this was an above average MCU film just outside my top 10.

 

 

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10 hours ago, grey ghost said:

Overall, I'd say this was an above average MCU film just outside my top 10.

Pretty funny sentence. This is only even possible with MCU and bond.   
 

Can’t wait for “above average, but just outside my top 25.”

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There's a reason that SWAT teams use that big triangular armored shield, that they can crouch down behind...criminals aren't idiots, they'll aim for the legs 😂! Cap and TaskMaster's small circular shields are for SWORD defense 😂! Unless you're wearing full body armor, that shield is nothing against a barrage of bullets 😂! You're better off ducking behind cover! 

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I watched it this weekend and I really think this could have been one of my favourite MCU movies if not for that messy third act. The first two thirds of the movie were fantastic and I really liked the new characters and I thought the humor and the actions scenes were very organic and nice. However, I didn't need a flying evil base in the third act and that parachute fall on a Black Widow movie, specially when we already have characters like Captain Marvel or Iron Man which can easily include something like that in their movies. I really think a more basic but effective third act spectacle like Mission Impossible movies would have been better. Other than that the movie was good and Scarlett was fantastic but the real star for me was Florence Pugh, she stole every scene and I would even say it overshadowed Scarlett in her own movie. I really really want to see her again in an MCU movie. 

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I love the film, but now I’m livid that Shortland didn’t get to pick this ending:

 

 

 

A leak like this is completely unusual for a MCU joint, and in light of the Chapek fiasco I wouldn’t doubt that someone that worked in that film just said fuck it. It’s also a lot more in line with what the film was all about and feels like the proper capper of that film than Natasha getting a quinjet to rescue her buddies.

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This is boiler plate MCU, which means its still decent and works for why these things tend to work even if because of its hefty at this point catalogue you know its a curse to be this reliably good because you know they can do better and have. I agree with alot of the same praises/criticisms though I think people are sleeping on that Indiana Jones-y action beat during the prison escape setpiece with the bazooka. George Lucas loved having his heroes seemingly solve their problem, only for that solution to beget a larger new issue to escape from. Surprisingly not enough folks noticed how that Moonraker reference (asides from clearly betraying King Kevin's age of when he became a 007 fan) foreshadowed the last setpiece which I found amusing, what with the sky/space villain fortress coming crashing down and our heroes trying to escape it. 

 

Of course irony is that people complaining about the acting/characterization being more memorable/effective than the action stuff, here's a secret kids: that element is why MCU has its global fanbase. Oh sure we all love the action stuff too with these imaginary action figures clobbering each other, but if you don't connect to the characters then who cares? Interesting how much TWS has influenced the subsequent MCU in terms of tone, with BW being a (shallower) rehash of it when you think about it. I do wish Taskmaster wasn't an afterthought though because c'mon. 

 

***1/2 out of 5

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3 hours ago, Alligator Zatt said:

I love the film, but now I’m livid that Shortland didn’t get to pick this ending:

 

 

 

A leak like this is completely unusual for a MCU joint, and in light of the Chapek fiasco I wouldn’t doubt that someone that worked in that film just said fuck it. It’s also a lot more in line with what the film was all about and feels like the proper capper of that film than Natasha getting a quinjet to rescue her buddies.

It’s not a leak, the deleted scenes were released alongside the the digital release (outside Disney+), and this is one of them.

 

I’m not sure I prefer it though, the bit with the girl seems a bit overly sappy to me, and you can tell it would have received a bit of a “is that it?” shrug from the audience.

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Since I did something similar for SHANG-CHI, I'll go back and span do the same for other released MCU movie joint

 

Ten Random Things I LIKED about this movie

 

(1) Florence Pugh. Ready for primetime as a MCU lead if things had gone to plan. Sa La Vi...

 

(2) David Harbour. As written, Harbour certainly made his character more likeable than it had any right to be. Like Pugh, excited to see when both return to the MCU.

 

(3) Pugh firing the bazooka at the prison escape setpiece is an underrated Indiana Jones-y action beat. It's the sort of thing George Lucas loved doing, heroes doing something that seemingly solve a problem, only to trigger a much bigger issue they have to escape from. 

 

(4) ScarJo being a MOONRAKER fan got a kick from this old 007 fan. Reveals King Kevin's age and who *his* Bond probably is. Also kinda clever since it foreshadows the 3rd act where both films involving villain fortresses in the sky that come crashing down to Earth. 

 

(5) Yeah rubbish CGI aside, the ending reminded me of that SAINT'S ROW 3 level. You know the one. 

 

(6) Pugh casually explaining to Harbour about how she was forcibly sterilized, yeah it plays into the stereotype of non-pervert guys uncomfortable about female reproductive anatomy being discussed and funny in delivery of something rather dark for the MCU. Handled the delivery much better than how Whedon did in AGE OF ULTRON ("I'm a monster" yeesh.)

 

(7) I think most people agree the 2nd act with the family "reunion" is best section. Some great actors doing some great work. I know these MCU things are action/comedy CGI affairs, but moments like that remind you that the characters are why MCU has such a massive fanbase and they tend to stick around. 

 

(8) In a callback to AVENGERS, Natasha using manipulation on the villain in his office to get what she wants. Specifically playing on his fragile manhood. 

 

(9) As much as people complained about this going backwards in the MCU and thus having no "stakes" (weird they never used that logic for say Captain America: TFA), as a MCU dork I do enjoy it when they can "lost tales" that try to fill in the canon-gaps and flesh out that world/point in time of that universe and some characters we already know. I also liked SOLO which was whacked for similar things. 

 

(10) nerd easter egg porn for its own sake, but it's still a nice retroactive touch that Natasha was wearing pieces of her INFINITY WAR gear that belonged to her "family." 

 

Ten Random Things I HATED about this movie

 

(1) Taskmaster. For a movie that was flagrant about rehashing THE WINTER SOLDIER, Taskmaster being an unstoppable TWS-esque Terminator beast on paper makes sense. Yet they screwed the pooch here. 

 

(2) Natasha's friend/fixer...who are you? who cares?

 

(3) A consequence of not doing a BW franchise earlier for Natasha, you're stucking burning down a good meaty running storyline for a trilogy (her guilt over murdering a kid) that you have to cram all into one movie. All things considered I think they did what they could in making chicken salad out of chicken shit, but still one of those long term things for MCU that came back to haunt them here.

 

(4) I thought the action here was generic overall, and SHANG-CHI obviously makes this even more apparent. Fascinating how two movies from the same studio could be 180 from each other.

 

(5) Natasha had money to buy her own jet but Sam Wilson didn't even have enough to fix his boat? What horseshit. 

 

(6) Ray Winstone. I like how during the middle of a scene he quits bothering with his Russian accent and goes back to his native cockney tongue. Shabby, Marvel. 

 

(7) The original ending was much better, our hero revisiting her childhood home and a little girl looking up to her. Worth looking up on YouTube. 

 

(8) Rumors about this movie exist, like original version before reshoots changed things up. That useless fixer/friend? He was Taskmaster for example. Harbour died fighting him, etc. As likeable as Harbour is and King Kevin probably thought "hey let's keep this dude around"...Harbour redeeming himself could've given this film an extra ummph. 

 

(9) I laugh when people whine about "but how did Natasha survive that freefall ending?!?" Guys, you all forgot early on when she fell off a friggin building and walked it off? Yeah that one that me and my suspension of disbelief made me go "oh BS."

 

(10) Yeah that ending looked green screen-y AF, didn't it?

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