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2 hours ago, FilmFincher said:

I love all the parallels between Riddler and Batman. Especially the voyeuristic nature of both of them, you basically get the same binoculars POV shot. 

 

Frustrating for me here is that, very similar to MAN OF STEEL, they really nailed the concept, story and cast but the actual execution could have been much better.

 

Apparently Gotham was even worse before. Apparently Sal Maroni was Pablo Escobar reborn. Apparently Maroni's impact on society was similar to Escobar's in Medellin. So it was B.A.D. Apparently Thomas Wayne, the cities golden boy, was a remarkable ray of hope for the city. Falcone, fearing for himself, had Wayne killed. Realizing things were tightening up, Falcone then turns on Maroni, taking over the drug trade and putting up a puppet city government that can take credit for ending the Maroni reign of terror. This type of thing could made for a killer prequel😂

 

That the same government winning election based off their success at "ending" the drug trade have secretly kept it running for their own gain - much to society's pain - is a big deal. That they used what was a noble effort by Thomas Wayne - the renewal fund - to cover it all up is icing on the cake for Wayne. So the Riddler, fed up with corruption and inspired Batman, somehow learns of this and begins killing off the big time officials covering it up - both as payback and to expose society to the truth. Batman is initially on the trail of the Riddler, trying to stop the murders, as he begins to realize the Riddler is onto something much bigger. The Riddler, however, has gone fully off the deep end and planning a large scale "day of judgement" for the entire city. Batman now finds himself in a race to both stop the Riddler's grand plan and wrangle with corruption mess he has uncovered. Further complicating things are the interwoven personal stakes for himself and his new friend, Selina Kyle, that may help bring Bruce closure to old pain and purpose for new strengths. 

 

There is just A LOT of story here. It is really too much for one film and should have been broken up into 2 parts. There are too many conflicting dynamics here for some things to properly resonate.

 

 

 

 

Edited by excel1
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7 hours ago, excel1 said:

 

This type of thing could made for a killer prequel😂

 

There is just A LOT of story here. It is really too much for one film and should have been broken up into 2 parts. There are too many conflicting dynamics here for some things to properly resonate.

 

 

 

 

 

The structure worked for me in a film noir type way. There's always some kind of minor reference at the start, wether to a previous case, a new set of condos being built, a protest against air pollution, a water drought.

 

Seemingly unimportant at first, but I like arriving at the story when Batman gets enveloped in it and we have to uncover this backstory when he does. 

 

There's a few things I felt could have been driven home or emphasised, especially to make everything click better. Like the impact of Riddler's uncovering of corruption on Gotham citizens (We get one brief shot of protestors), Riddler's impending day of judgement, a couple more references to the sea wall. Stuff like that. But for the most part it worked.

Edited by FilmFincher
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The flooding of Gotham in the climax works because it serves as a key moment in the character's development. Batman/Bruce helping the people out from under the wreckage and leading them to safety is the point where he officially transitions from "vigilante" to "hero" in the eyes of the city's citizens. 

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1 hour ago, filmlover said:

The flooding of Gotham in the climax works because it serves as a key moment in the character's development. Batman/Bruce helping the people out from under the wreckage and leading them to safety is the point where he officially transitions from "vigilante" to "hero" in the eyes of the city's citizens. 

Sure, that's the purpose of the scene, but it felt very inorganic to me. I don't think there was sufficient buildup to the flood and I also didn't love the execution, especially the "I'm vengeance" parallel which felt like a kinda lazy way to draw a connection between Batman and the Riddler that wasn't really supported by his actions during the film.

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35 minutes ago, Menor Reborn said:

Sure, that's the purpose of the scene, but it felt very inorganic to me. I don't think there was sufficient buildup to the flood and I also didn't love the execution, especially the "I'm vengeance" parallel which felt like a kinda lazy way to draw a connection between Batman and the Riddler that wasn't really supported by his actions during the film.

 

 

That's my feeling as well. I understand its theoretical place in the story and character arc, but the execution was quite lacking. A scene such as that was necessary to bring the story home, but it had to be much better executed.

 

So what I think some of us are saying is not that scene should be cut outright, as the movie would indeed feel very incomplete, but rather it should've been executed in a very different way

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The Riddler opening was a horror movie. Unbelievably tense in the lead up to the killing and then the yell he lets out. But the creepiest part is when he just sits on the Mayors body, legs on either side, reaches under the front of his jacket to hold onto the duct tape, then lets out this exhale of gratification. There was something disturbingly intimate about the whole process. 

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One nice Easter Egg for Godfather fans:

When Bruce Wayne Visits Falcone in Falcone's office, the song playing in the background is "I Have Bur One Heart" the song Johnny Fontaine sings at Connie Corleone's wedding in "THe Godfather".

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There's something to be said about how 30 years ago, a Batman movie was genuinely invested in Selina Kyle's story and struggles. Her quest for autonomy is centre stage (literally the last shot of the movie) while Bruce's character is only really explored though his relationship with her. However many years and Catwomen later, and all subsequent versions of Catwoman have just felt like pawns to strategically move around the plot to give the hero his necessary hero beats. 

 

I hope someone more articulate than me will write a think-piece about it. It bothers me. 

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1 hour ago, ddddeeee said:

There's something to be said about how 30 years ago, a Batman movie was genuinely invested in Selina Kyle's story and struggles. Her quest for autonomy is centre stage (literally the last shot of the movie) while Bruce's character is only really explored though his relationship with her. However many years and Catwomen later, and all subsequent versions of Catwoman have just felt like pawns to strategically move around the plot to give the hero his necessary hero beats. 

 

I hope someone more articulate than me will write a think-piece about it. It bothers me. 

Well, Batman is the main character. Tim Burton just happened to be more interested in focusing on Batman’s villains than Batman himself. 

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1 hour ago, ddddeeee said:

There's something to be said about how 30 years ago, a Batman movie was genuinely invested in Selina Kyle's story and struggles. Her quest for autonomy is centre stage (literally the last shot of the movie) while Bruce's character is only really explored though his relationship with her. However many years and Catwomen later, and all subsequent versions of Catwoman have just felt like pawns to strategically move around the plot to give the hero his necessary hero beats. 

 

I hope someone more articulate than me will write a think-piece about it. It bothers me. 

 

I thought you'd like Selina's story here with her being desperate to find her friend and also seeking revenge on her father. I'd actually argue that Selina had a better origin story than Batman.

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55 minutes ago, filmlover said:

I'll be really surprised if Selina doesn't eventually make her way back to Gotham in the sequel(s). Pattinson and Kravitz had a good chemistry between them.

 

There's no way in hell Selina doesn't come back. 

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11 hours ago, Menor Reborn said:

Sure, that's the purpose of the scene, but it felt very inorganic to me. I don't think there was sufficient buildup to the flood and I also didn't love the execution, especially the "I'm vengeance" parallel which felt like a kinda lazy way to draw a connection between Batman and the Riddler that wasn't really supported by his actions during the film.

 

Also...where did the venom randomly come from? Clearly a convenient plot device. Would have made way more sense if it was tied to something earlier in the film.

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On 3/8/2022 at 12:49 PM, ddddeeee said:

There's something to be said about how 30 years ago, a Batman movie was genuinely invested in Selina Kyle's story and struggles. Her quest for autonomy is centre stage (literally the last shot of the movie) while Bruce's character is only really explored though his relationship with her. However many years and Catwomen later, and all subsequent versions of Catwoman have just felt like pawns to strategically move around the plot to give the hero his necessary hero beats. 

 

I hope someone more articulate than me will write a think-piece about it. It bothers me. 

 

TBF Selina is a supporting player in a Batman story here. Returns will always be an anomaly because it is actually a Catwoman movie as written by the writer of Heathers with Batman as a supporting player. FWIW, I think in terms of utilizing Selina as a support, The Batman did a much better job than TDKR as it gave her backstory, vulnerabilities, interpersonal relationships with characters other than Batman and a more satisfying arc.

 

And they are clearly setting her up for her own solo adventures with her heading to Bludhaven. So I just see The Batman as a launchpad for the character.

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23 hours ago, Noctis said:

There's no way in hell Selina doesn't come back. 

 

If she gets her own HBO Max series then I can see them giving her a break for a sequel before bringing her back for the third film. That was rumored to be the plan for Mera from Aquaman too but I guess her HBO Max show didn't pan out.

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3 minutes ago, Spidey Freak said:

 

If she gets her own HBO Max series then I can see them giving her a break for a sequel before bringing her back for the third film. That was rumored to be the plan for Mera from Aquaman too but I guess her HBO Max show didn't pan out.

 

Are they gonna give Selina her own HBO show? Seems really excessive with Penguin and the detective cop getting one too.

 

I think it would be a huge mistake to not bring her for the sequel - she was this film's beating heart and a small break from the doom and gloom.

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