***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS*** AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER SPOILERS THREAD ***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS*** ***SPOILERS*** ***DID WE MENTION SPOILERS?????***

[OncomingStorm93]

2 hours ago, SnokesLegs said:

Got to admit, I did feel like Neytiri was weirdly almost entirely sidelined until near the end. Guessing she’s more integral to the third film considering Zoe Saldana’s comments about preferring Avatar 3.

Neytiri should have been the one to have the seaside chat with Kiri, not Jake.

[AniNate]

Yeah I honestly would've preferred her making all the parenting decisions over Jake. Think there would've been far more potential for compelling drama there.

 

Cameron's usually much better at giving all his female characters something interesting to do but she was just a complete afterthought in this movie.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by AniNate

[Noctis]

Neytiri and Reya were the easy MVPs.

 

I need Jake Sully to not make it in the third film. He's easily the most painfully unlikable lead in such a long time. Utterly devoid of any character and warmth. 

[Noctis]

Also, the youngest girl was REALLY annoying. Cringe as fuck and just as bad Jake...I wanted her to get gobbled up by the sea creature. Such a shame Neytiri chased after her when she was sucked into that hole. 

[AniNate]

Idk I found her freaking out charming instead of annoying. She's 8 so not a whole lot she can do in an action movie yet but cry and be scared, but she reminded me of Newt.

 

That seems to be the one aspect of the movie I'm higher on than anyone else.

[LinksterAC]

A lot of the writing here was lazy &/or dumb. One example is the “consciousness disk image” idea that begs enormous questions about why Jake was even needed to pilot his Avatar in the first firm.

 

The repeated theme with this bad writing isn’t that it breaks the film, but rather leaves me spending time trying to fill in the holes while I should be absorbing the film.

 

Another example is the beat-for-beat rehashes of the plot points from the first film which just felt even self-referential ly unoriginal sometimes: “Dances with Wolves in Space but this time in Water!”

 

That said, the characters are generally incredibly likable, especially the Na’vi kids, & the family focus makes the emotional core of the film is more universal & resonant than the first movie. 

 

And the action & visuals are holy smokes you absolutely have to see it.

 

Overall, I really like the film & will probably see it multiple times, but I just wish that after 13 years the writing could be better.

[SnokesLegs]

44 minutes ago, LinksterAC said:

A lot of the writing here was lazy &/or dumb. One example is the “consciousness disk image” idea that begs enormous questions about why Jake was even needed to pilot his Avatar in the first firm.

I don’t think that’s necessarily bad writing or a plot hole, it’s easily explainable that maybe Jake’s brother never thought it necessary to download his consciousness considering he wasn’t a soldier in a high risk situation, or maybe he was just against the idea on principle since it’s clearly a murky ethical situation. Quaritch and the others did the download just before the big battle at the end of the first film just in case they didn’t come back.

[LinksterAC]

5 minutes ago, SnokesLegs said:

I don’t think that’s necessarily bad writing or a plot hole, it’s easily explainable that maybe Jake’s brother never thought it necessary to download his consciousness considering he wasn’t a soldier in a high risk situation, or maybe he was just against the idea on principle since it’s clearly a murky ethical situation. Quaritch and the others did the download just before the big battle at the end of the first film just in case they didn’t come back.

Like I said, it doesn’t break the film, and you can fill in the holes with a bit of effort. 

 

But really, the Avatars are a multi-million (billion?) dollar investment that can only work with one individual and they didn’t think it was prudent to do this as a general precaution?

 

Sure, I can concoct reasons why Jake’s brother didn’t or couldn’t do it, but for a conceit so central to the world building and the story, I really shouldn’t have to.

 

So, yeah, I do necessarily think it’s bad writing—though I still did end up greatly enjoying the film for many other reasons. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by LinksterAC

[OncomingStorm93]

1 hour ago, LinksterAC said:

Like I said, it doesn’t break the film, and you can fill in the holes with a bit of effort. 

 

But really, the Avatars are a multi-million (billion?) dollar investment that can only work with one individual and they didn’t think it was prudent to do this as a general precaution?

 

Sure, I can concoct reasons why Jake’s brother didn’t or couldn’t do it, but for a conceit so central to the world building and the story, I really shouldn’t have to.

 

So, yeah, I do necessarily think it’s bad writing—though I still did end up greatly enjoying the film for many other reasons. 

 

I agree there’s some terrible writing in this film, but not this particular plot point. I do feel like they established a difference between Jake piloting a body, still being Jake, and this clone of Quaritch who acknowledges he’s not the original. That’s part of the dynamic with his “son”. Whether or not you think it worked in the film is a different story. I though it was one of the more flawed parts of the script.

 

I would very much for third film to have this Quaritch have an existential crisis. I feel like the right pieces were setup for that kind of story; and I think it’s the only interesting thing left to do with his character.

Edited December 18, 2022 by OncomingStorm93

[The Dark Alfred]

What do people think of the HFR? It didn't work for me. Made certain scenes like a bad video game glitch. The underwater scenes however were breathtaking.  First act was terrible overall. Like really rushed, super bad. Second act was decent and things picked up in the end.

 

Film felt like a 2-year old wrote it. Shame, because there was a lot more potential than the cliche we got with a 2 dimensional villain, whose motives made little sense. Hopefully things improve with the third film.

[OncomingStorm93]

8 minutes ago, The Dark Alfred said:

What do people think of the HFR? It didn't work for me. Made certain scenes like a bad video game glitch.

I liked it overall, but it definitely worked better in some parts than others.

 

I think the more motion there was in a given shot, especially if the eyes are drawn to several different fast motions, compounded by a “camera” “moving” at it’s own pace and angle, then it was rough. And I didn’t like how the frame rate was switching shot-to-shot. Felt like a bunch of insert shots were lagging. Would have been better to make that a scene by scene decision and stick with one frame rate for a few minutes at a time. Also I’m curious if they experimented with ramping the frame rates up/down instead of just doing hard cuts.

[The Dark Alfred]

Assuming you watched the 3D version. Wondering what's the general consensus regarding HFR given the different formats. Must look terrible in 2D. That said, underwater scenes were just magical. That might be enough for some to heap praise on it, but the poor writing and overall recycled story arc left much to be desired. Now that this was essientally the remake of the first one, here's hope that the third one will impress more story wise. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by The Dark Alfred

[LinksterAC]

57 minutes ago, OncomingStorm93 said:

 

I agree there’s some terrible writing in this film, but not this particular plot point. I do feel like they established a difference between Jake piloting a body, still being Jake, and this clone of Quaritch who acknowledges he’s not the original. That’s part of the dynamic with his “son”. Whether or not you think it worked in the film is a different story. I though it was one of the more flawed parts of the script.

 

I would very much for third film to have this Quaritch have an existential crisis. I feel like the right pieces were setup for that kind of story; and I think it’s the only interesting thing left to do with his character.

 

I’m confused by your first paragraph. What is the difference here that is relevant to the questions begged about Tommy not downloading his consciousness? I don’t feel like they provide an answer in the film.

 

The Quaritch father & son dynamic & setup actually worked for me, even if the performance & development given to Spider was lacking. I hope they pay it off in the later entries & I think they will in much the way you’re describing.

Edited December 18, 2022 by LinksterAC

[LinksterAC]

21 minutes ago, The Dark Alfred said:

What do people think of the HFR? It didn't work for me. Made certain scenes like a bad video game glitch. The underwater scenes however were breathtaking.  First act was terrible overall. Like really rushed, super bad. Second act was decent and things picked up in the end.

 

Film felt like a 2-year old wrote it. Shame, because there was a lot more potential than the cliche we got with a 2 dimensional villain, whose motives made little sense. Hopefully things improve with the third film.

HFR in IMAX 3D definitely worked for me, particularly for the action set pieces & underwater. I prefer to watch it this way, especially since the visual fidelity/realism here is much better than what we got with The Hobbit (which I think is best viewed at 24 fps).

[AniNate]

That whole Lo'ak daddy issues subplot was just death. No motivation to it whatsoever. It was so cringe how he resisted the bullies at first and then caved the second they pulled the "wrong brother" card. Lo'ak as a character has potential but the story here didn't do him any favors.

 

I also didn't buy into Jake's paper thin arc for a second. "I want to run away" "ok now I want to stay" I can't believe such a grade school level of script writing would be acceptable for any filmmaker not named James Cameron.

Edited December 18, 2022 by AniNate

[LinksterAC]

4 minutes ago, The Dark Alfred said:

Assuming you watched the 3D version. Wondering what's the general consensus regarding HFR given the different formats. Must look terrible in 2D. That said, underwater scenes were just magical. That might be enough for some to heap praise on it, but the poor writing and overall recycled story arc left much to be desired. Now that this was essientally the remake of the first one, here's hope that the third one will impress more story wise. 

I mean the story arc felt comically recycled sometimes. Like beat-for-beat, & line-for-line.

 

BUT the characters are really likable, & their relationships are relatable, & I’ve noticed that can make up for *a lot* of failures elsewhere with GA (& myself, TBH). If you care about the characters, & their story tugs on your emotions, you can forgive all manner of writing B.S.

[LinksterAC]

2 minutes ago, AniNate said:

That whole Lo'ak daddy issues subplot was just death. No motivation to it whatsoever. It was so cringe how he resisted the bullies at first and then caved the second they pulled the "wrong brother" card. Lo'ak as a character has potential but the story here didn't do him any favors.

 

I also didn't buy into Jake's paper thin arc for a second. "I want to run away" "ok now I want to stay" I can't believe such a grade school level of script writing would be acceptable for any filmmaker not named James Cameron.

That second paragraph is a good point, and it’s another sign of poor writing IMHO. Like, it feels like a fundamental character change & makes him a bit unrecognizable from the first film (where he obviously stood & fought even against dire odds).

 

Thing is, there’s soil here to grow that tree. Being a father & protecting those kids can change a man’s priorities—but I don’t feel the writing earned that change.

[The Dark Alfred]

The new characters worked despite getting childish dialogue. The whole Neytiri attacking Spider in the big standoff in the end was just silly. Also calling him "Monkey Boy" is not racist at all, right? Sigourney as a 14 year-old was hilarious as well, maybe for the next one Jimbo comes up with a better de-aging voice technology lol

[Cmasterclay]

Why did Jake Sully's half white/half blue alien from another planet children talk in a fake Jamaican accent and use modern hip hop vernacular so much? And Kate Winslet was going full Chet Hanks too ngl. Otherwise, I thought it was terrific.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Cmasterclay

[OncomingStorm93]

1 hour ago, LinksterAC said:

 

I’m confused by your first paragraph. What is the difference here that is relevant to the questions begged about Tommy not downloading his consciousness? I don’t feel like they provide an answer in the film.

 

What I’m saying is that there are philosophical questions about the difference between remotely piloting an alien clone, and being dead and having your consciousness just plugged into an alien clone. I feel The Way of Water very lightly touched on these themes. Very lightly. I would like to see this plot element we are talking about become central to whatever character journey James Cameron thought was worth bringing Quaritch back for all the sequels. I did feel fleeting moments in Way of Water with “Quaritch” where the seeds were being planted.