The Marvel / MCU Thread || From Blade to Secret Wars, All Things Marvel!

[TheFlatLannister]

3 hours ago, SpiderByte said:

I don't think Marvel is as reactionary as everyone here is claiming tbh. They aren't going to cancel Cap 4 or Thunderbolts over The Marvels.

 

Hopefully if they're at CCXP next week they'll show off some cool stuff. With SDCC skipped due to the strike I wouldn't be surprised if they put a little more push into that than normal.

Marvel/Disney probably won't cancel anything, but they absolutely SHOULD

 

Oversaturation is the problem (the GA and casual MCU fans are having trouble keeping up with the break-neck speed of the multiverse saga) 

 

I just don't see much upside in having a Cap 4 and Thunderbolts film when they could cause more harm than good at this point

[Halberstram]

3 hours ago, SpiderByte said:

I don't think Marvel is as reactionary as everyone here is claiming tbh. They aren't going to cancel Cap 4 or Thunderbolts over The Marvels.

 

Hopefully if they're at CCXP next week they'll show off some cool stuff. With SDCC skipped due to the strike I wouldn't be surprised if they put a little more push into that than normal.

I think the first thing they should figure out is if their movies have a compelling script. Otherwise, What's the point if the quality is guaranteed to be low quality from the start? 

[John Marston]

3 hours ago, Zakiyyah6 said:

Every studio is reactionary when their back is against the wall. Marvel will be reactionary just like Lucasfilm and WB were. How reactionary, remains to be seen.

 

I think Rose Tico sucked as a character but the thing to do was to rewrite her into a good character, not nearly totally excise her character from the final Star Wars sequel. That's a lazy tactic. Brie Larson's Captain Marvel will never be loved but Marvel can still continue to work on her as a supporting character. And tone down her powers for goodness sake. She is way over powered. 

 

the problem with Captain Marvel is an addition to not being well liked she has no weaknesses. She is Superman without the Kryptonite. She is a base breaking character so the best thing to do is write this character out 

[Zakiyyah6]

46 minutes ago, John Marston said:

 

the problem with Captain Marvel is an addition to not being well liked she has no weaknesses. She is Superman without the Kryptonite. She is a base breaking character so the best thing to do is write this character out 

Superman is vulnerable to magic as well but I get your point that her having no vulnerabilities is a huge issue. I don't know why they wrote themselves into this corner.

[Kon]

39 minutes ago, Zakiyyah6 said:

Superman is vulnerable to magic as well but I get your point that her having no vulnerabilities is a huge issue. I don't know why they wrote themselves into this corner.

There has always been complaints about the way the MCU handle its female characters.

 

So, I assume they thought creating an extremely powerful and competent female character would solve this criticism. However, they forgot to make the character interesting.

 

It was exactly the same issue with Alice from Alice in Wonderland (2010).

 

 

It seems they try to make the character more appealing to the audience in The Marvels (although the reception is mixed). Unfortunately, the audience for The Marvels is a lot smaller, so Captain Marvel reputation won't improve.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Kon

[Brainbug]

The only thing that could save the MCU is obviously a Squirrel Girl movie starring Anna Kendrick.

[SpiderByte]

2 hours ago, TheFlatLannister said:

Oversaturation is the problem (the GA and casual MCU fans are having trouble keeping up with the break-neck speed of the multiverse saga) 

They delayed everything. There is one movie and two live action shows coming out next year. Just saying "just scrap everything and it'll suddenly improve morale" is not reality based 

[John Marston]

12 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

They delayed everything. There is one movie and two live action shows coming out next year. Just saying "just scrap everything and it'll suddenly improve morale" is not reality based 

 

Kicking the can down the road doesn’t solve anything 

[Daxtreme]

So let's pretend I'm Kevin Feige in 2019 here, what would I have done to make sure I don't oversaturate the market, but at the same time reach Secret Wars cohesively in 2025? Well here is a revised release schedule that takes into account studio obligations (Spider-Man Sony, Deadpool, F4+X-men rights reverting in March 2019, and COVID delays) 

Initial release dates are earlier, not shown.  Final release dates after COVID delay are as follows:

 

Date	Title	Notes
May 2021	WandaVision (Disney+)	Slight delay for minor changes
November 2021	Black Widow	Character send-off, already filming
December 2021	Spider-Man: No Way Home
March 2022	Thor 4 + Captain Marvel 2	Living Tribunal introduction
July 2022	Doctor Strange 2	Different
November 2022	Captain America 4
May 2023	Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3
August 2023	Fantastic Four	Dr. Doom introduction
November 2023	Any TV Show (Disney+)	Can be literally anything
February 2024	Deadpool 3	$$$$ printing money goes brrrr
May 2024	Avengers: Battle World	Beyonder shenanigans
December 2024	Scarlet Witch in Hell	Wtf is this you ask? Setup for below
May 2025	Avengers: Secret Wars	Doom threatens the Multiverse

 

3 releases per year, as it was before Avengers: Endgame, and 9 releases in total by November 2023, compared to 19 now with Kevin Feige. 2 TV seasons, that's it. So, less than half of the releases we've had, and less than a quarter of the total runtime than we've had due to cutting all those pointless TV shows that only managed to damage the brand. Also, never release a movie on Disney+ a mere 45 days after release. NEVER!! Full theatrical release window, always.

 

We would be having the first teaser for Avengers: Battle World right around now as we speak, so we already know where this all leads (all thanks to incorporating elements of Battle World and Secret Wars earlier, more on that below), and first trailer for Deadpool 3 coming next year. Deadpool 3 could be moved a bit later, if needed.

 

WandaVision is literally just giving it few more months to properly reshoot and edit together the last episode which was kinda... rushed, and bad. Maybe change up things, but the core story remains.

Black Widow delaying it so it has more time for VFX and reshoots fixing up the 3rd act. Was already filming back when the announcement was made so I can't just delete it from the release schedule. None of the other announced titles were filming, so RIP them.

 

No Loki because the multiverse mechanics introduced in the show contradict those in Spider-Man No Way Home and Doctor Strange 2. No go. Since we're going with the Multiverse, those things HAVE to make sense if you want people to get invested. You need verisimilitude, and the TVA ain't it as it exists too much in a microcosm of itself.

 

Yes I would combine Thor 4 and Captain Marvel 2 into 1 movie. It's the cosmic side of the MCU and they go very well together, as their minimal screentime in Endgame revealed. Most important part: introducing the Living Tribunal (Multiverse authority), so audience know where we are going with this. Maybe even The Beyonder but only in passing, it's not a must. Thor + CM in the same movie just has got to be fun and popular anyway. +GOTG cameo as they are with Thor at the end of Endgame. Hire the WRITER of Thor: Ragnarok (crucial mistake by Marvel with writers in general in Phase 4 and 5)

 

Doctor Strange 2 would be Strange and Wanda teaming up against Nightmare/Mephisto, but Wanda goes crazy at the midpoint because of the Darkhold and becomes the movie's villain after defeating the decoy villain. So we at least have what people wanted to see: Wanda and Strange together, albeit not for long. The Darkhold VERY EXPLICITLY corrupts her here and shows her that she can extract her children from another reality and bring them in her own, causing an incursion that destroys that reality in the process. So, pretty bad outcome, except for Wanda, who is like, I am OBVIOUSLY doing this, and Strange is like, wait trading your children for an entire reality? NOPE. They fight, with more cool spells and magic not just energy balls please, and Wanda loses because Strange is smarter even though she has more raw power. He traps her in a cool spell. Strange banishes the Darkhold. Wanda gets arrested by an agent of the Living Tribunal at the end, for her crimes against the Multiverse, tying it up together with the previous movie that introduced said agent. No more under the influence of the Darkhold, Wanda goes in willingly, horrified of what she's done and wanted to do. Different story details and side characters can be arranged if necessary, but the ending is important. No ruined Professor X cameo either.

 

Cap 4 can be literally anything, doesn't matter. It's studio-mandated at this point. Keep in mind Falcon and the Winter Soldier hasn't happened, and definitely won't happen, so there should still be some goodwill for the character left. If we're gonna do a gritty political thriller, at least let's do it right, and let's not have him openly defend terrorists this time.

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 no change.

Fantastic Four can be anything. Introduce Dr.Doom, but he's in the backdrop. Maybe he even helps the heroes? Or maybe he's only referenced as having fought them before? Not even sure that movie's necessary to be honest, but let's do the F4 right if we're doing it. At very minimum Dr.Doom shows up in post-credits.

After F4 we have room here for any TV show we want. Any hero, villain, whatever. Some room to adapt. Obligatory for the studio to have at least 1 other Disney+ show at some point, so here it is.

No Black Panther 2, the actor is dead. Let it rest, Marvel. Wakanda Forever is so obviously made for dollar reasons, it's not even funny.

Deadpool 3 whatever, doesn't matter. We all know it's just a movie for $$$ anyway. They'll all show up in the next movie.

 

Avengers: Battle World (park an 18-wheeler full of cash in front of the writers of Infinity War and Endgame) Now this is where the fun begins. Without going into details too much, The Beyonder, a mysterious cosmic entity, does like in the comics and grabs ALL the heroes and villains and puts them on Battle World, a far-away planet, to fight against each other. Lots of cool things happen, minor fights and conflicts everywhere, but in the chaos Dr.Doom manages to steal The Beyonder's power, and becomes OP, but ends up "defeated" by the heroes. I could add more details here but it's the gist of it, and what's important is that Dr Doom attempts to fuck with the Multiverse here too, and is arrested by the same agent of Living Tribunal.

 

Scarlet Witch in Hell After the events of Avengers: Battle World, Dr Doom ended up imprisoned in the -same- place as Wanda by the Living Tribunal for his crimes against the Multiverse. Important to show that he kinda wanted this. Wanda is depressed as fuck and doesn't care about anything, but he sees the potential in her. Cue little bit of dark humor as a villain tries to cheer up Wanda but fails to understand her because he is... too villainous. Eventually he convinces her that with his newfound power he can easily give her the family she longs for. Together, they escape (more complicated than that but keeping it simple), but instead of ending up in Latveria (Doom's country he leads) they end up in HELL, because with Wanda it's always more chaotic than intended. Wanda is triggered by this because Hell is where Chthon lives and that's who created the Darkhold that basically... ruined her life! Maybe there's a reason they ended up in hell after all. She fully intends on wiping the floor with all of hell as a revenge. Doom doesn't want this but it's quite humorous because he can't manage to redirect her anger here.    sigh   oh well, looks like we're destroying hell because why not at this point. A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.

 

Agent of Living Tribunal (at this point he/she's somewhat becoming the Coulson of this phase) finally manages to find the fugitives all the way in hell but Dr.Doom yeets them away effortlessly, showing he's been hiding how powerful he is. Remember he still has Beyonder's massive cosmic powers, and probably lost on purpose all this time. He's powerful enough to bring Wanda to Latveria against her will, but he's enjoying this at the same time. Finally, she kills Chthon and it's cathartic, and they go back to Latveria where Doom really quickly and subtly reprograms White Vision and manifests her children on the side, fake ones. Bringing the real children from another reality isn't even necessary. Wanda doesn't know they're fake, and although subconsciously she might suspect something is weird, Wanda and being in denial basically go hand in hand, and so she's over the moon happy at this point. The movie literally ends with Wanda and Victor Von Doom getting married in a "rousing" moment and Doom succeeding on his Hero's (Villain's) Journey. Post-credits is him setting himself up for domination as Living Tribunal himself comes to apprehend him, and... fails! (though it's only a setback, you can't kill Living Tribunal). Dr.Doom is truly omnipotent now, leading us to Secret Wars.

 

Avengers: Secret Wars  Dr.Doom threatens the whole Multiverse. He is just everywhere. This is it... Avengers, assemble! Bring back ANYONE here, cameos, X-men, all Marvel universes come together for a big fan-favorite event of massive proportions. Meanwhile Beyonder is roaming the universe after losing most of his powers in Avengers: Battle World, and is learning lots of things about life, things he never knew being an omnipotent cosmic entity. A nice pause and philosophical breather from the epic action. More on that soon.

 

So it's everyone against Omnipotent Doom + Scarlet Witch, who is revigorated and determined more than ever not to lose what she has. The ultimate power couple. And the heroes lose, all the time. The duo are just too strong. Before the climax, Vision and Wanda's children from another reality (real ones) manage to show her that her so-called children are... super fake! What the actual FUCK?! is her reaction. After a massive meltdown, and realizing she got played, she vows to betray Doom and give Beyonder his powers back. Side plot to find him again (gives something to do to minor heroes), and that leads us to the climax: now that Scarlet Witch switched sides, the heroes (ALL of them + X-men + F4, let's be wild) manage to overthrow him, finally. But it took everything they had. Then Beyonder's powers are returned as planned. But plot twist: he doesn't care now. After roaming the universe as a mostly mundane being, he doesn't give a rat's ass about Battle World, Doom, the heroes, the villains, anything. So he returns to his cosmic realm and that's... a dead end.

 

Knowing that Doom will always, always be a threat, and so he must be stopped now or he'll return in the Multiverse in some way, shape or form, Scarlet Witch asks Living Tribunal, her jailor, for special permission to access the Multiverse one last time for an ultimate but necessary maneuver. Living Tribunal analyzes the plan and approves of it as being proper judgment. With Doctor Strange's help, who brings the Darkhold back from banishment, she uses it one last fucking time to destroy all versions of Doom in the Multiverse, and fold the doomed realities into the main reality (or just nuking the Multiverse) leading to a reset of some sort. That much power requires her to sacrifice herself in addition to drawing all of the Darkhold's power in all the universes (destroying it), which she does. Her sacrifice is accepted by Living Tribunal as final punishment for her crimes.

 

It's over. She and Doom are no more. A new dawn on a new universe. 

____________________________________________________________

 

There. Secret Wars done by 2025 with only 3 releases per year and room to add something. We've gone full circle narratively and thematically with the Multiverse (and the Darkhold) as Phase4 started with WandaVision. Ending with a throwback to the beginning is always a good writing technique. Our MacGuffins remain relevant throughout.

 

And we've got a fresh new universe ready to incorporate the X-Men and whatever else Marvel wants or needs to conjure, as well as proper justification for their inclusion. Scarlet Witch was the ideal character to do this wipe, hence fleshing her out in a solo outing and many recurring roles, because she's a known entity and a popular character in the MCU who has been there for a while, unlike the others from the comics who would have needed to be introduced. We all saw what happens when you introduce powerful characters near the end of your story (Captain Marvel). It's... generally unfavorably received. Here, it fits, and in Secret Wars her ending the Multiverse mirrors Tony Stark's snap at the end of Avengers: Endgame.

 

No Multiverse shenanigans after this reset too - it's done. That can only last so long before people tire of it... There are always the alternate dimensions to pool from (Doctor Strange 3?)

 

Is it perfect? Far from it. But I conjured this up in a couple hours while sipping chocolate milk. 

[TwoMisfits]

3 hours ago, Halberstram said:

I think the first thing they should figure out is if their movies have a compelling script. Otherwise, What's the point if the quality is guaranteed to be low quality from the start? 

 

This, 1000x this!  Write a dang compelling story with compelling character arcs, like Disney used to do in their sleep.  2023 is the year Disney couldn't tell a story...and it's showed...

[SpiderByte]

1 hour ago, John Marston said:

 

Kicking the can down the road doesn’t solve anything 

Neither does shitcanning projects, including several theyve already shot, because some people decided they didn't like them in advance. How do you people see shit like Coyote vs Acme and think "this is a successful strategy that makes the people making these decisions look trustworthy and competent". It doesn't fucking work!

Edited November 20, 2023 by SpiderByte

[HummingLemon496]

Multiverse of Madness through The Marvels reminds of the Snyder-Verse era of the DCEU (Man of Steel --> Justice League), where the last film having absolutely embarrassing box office is a result of too many films having shitty reception where it just collapses.

 

Let's see if Deadpool 3 can be their version of Aquaman at the box office. I do not think @TheFlatLannister is being unreasonable with his optimism about it. The GA goes fucking insane over multiverse cameos.

 

That's how No Way Home made $1.9 billion without China in a pandemic.

 

That's how a solo Doctor Strange movie had an Avengers level opening weekend.

 

That's how Quantumania was doing insane in presales before bad reception fucked it up. With a good script it would've blown past the previous two Ant-Man movies (even then with its awful reception it's still gonna be the #2 highest grossing live action CBM of the year, lmao).

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by HummingLemon496

[HummingLemon496]

I never bought this whole "MCU is dying" crap back in mid-late 2022 because it was mostly just people being mad that they "ruined Wanda" in Multiverse of Madness are how there were "too many jokes" in Love and Thunder (seriously, where the fuck was r/boxoffice to proclaim the death of the MCU when Age of Ultron and Civil War both had poor legs in 2015/2016?)

 

. . .but now I actually believe and think it is 100% true it with The Marvels becoming probably the biggest bomb of all time.  The Marvels is doing to do less in its entire domestic total than what DS2 did in its fucking OPENING DAY. That right there is an actual collapse. This saga is completely cursed with middling reception, a bazillion damn TV shows, and absolutely no clear structure or plan.

 

And man it still shocks me how insane Doctor Strange 2 did. $36M previews. $90M opening day. Goliath $187M opening weekend. MoM's OW will be higher than the domestic total of every live action CBM in 2023 except for Ant-Man 3 and GOTG 3. And that was just with one character, not a huge team up with 10 characters like Avengers 2 or Civil War. Multiverse of Madness absolutely demolished Phase 1 and 2 in terms of box office gross. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by HummingLemon496

[TheFlatLannister]

40 minutes ago, HummingLemon496 said:

Multiverse of Madness through The Marvels reminds of the Snyder-Verse era of the DCEU (Man of Steel --> Justice League), where the last film having absolutely embarrassing box office is a result of too many films having shitty reception where it just collapses.

 

Let's see if Deadpool 3 can be their version of Aquaman at the box office. I do not think @TheFlatLannister is being unreasonable with his optimism about it. The GA goes fucking insane over multiverse cameos.

 

That's how No Way Home made $1.9 billion without China in a pandemic.

 

That's how a solo Doctor Strange movie had an Avengers level opening weekend.

 

That's how Quantumania was doing insane in presales before bad reception fucked it up. With a good script it would've blown past the previous two Ant-Man movies (even then with its awful reception it's still gonna be the #2 highest grossing live action CBM of the year, lmao).

 

 

There’s just no way a cameo MCU event somehow grosses less than both solo Deadpool films. As Shawn, Empire and others have previously stated, Deadpool is going to be a true summer 4 Quadrant blockbuster film. 

[HummingLemon496]

2 minutes ago, TheFlatLannister said:

There’s just no way a cameo MCU event somehow grosses less than both solo Deadpool films. As Shawn, Empire and others have previously stated, Deadpool is going to be a true summer 4 Quadrant blockbuster film. 

I agree, completely god damn agree (well unless it's trash but if it's good then it'll bitchslap the first two Deadpool films).

 

Unrelated but how much do you think Multiverse of Madness would've done if it received like Shang-Chi so like a 90% RT, A CinemaScore basically? 

Edited November 20, 2023 by HummingLemon496

[TheFlatLannister]

4 minutes ago, HummingLemon496 said:

I agree, completely god damn agree (well unless it's trash but if it's good then it'll bitchslap the first two Deadpool films).

 

Unrelated but how much do you think Multiverse of Madness would've done if it received like Shang-Chi so like a 90% RT, A CinemaScore basically? 

Easy $1.2B 

ceiling $1.4B without a cent from China 

 

the opening was huge and the momentum would have carried across the early summer days. 
 

legs were comically short and it still almost hit $1B 

Edited November 20, 2023 by TheFlatLannister

[Zakiyyah6]

I can tell that MCU fans still think that we're living in a world where "it's fun" is enough to get people to see any comic book movie. That time is over. The sooner the fans accept that, the better off they'll be. The Marvels being "fun" is not enough anymore. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Zakiyyah6

[HummingLemon496]

1 minute ago, TheFlatLannister said:

Easy $1.2B 

ceiling $1.4B without a cent from China 

 

the opening was huge and the momentum would have carried across the early summer days. 
 

legs were comically short and it still almost hit $1B 

Fair enough.

 

I still kinda think that even if it did earn an A on CinemaScore then it probably would've had poor legs anyway just due to insane frontloaded-ness like Iron Man 3, Age of Ultron, and Civil War. Probably like $200M/$460M/$1.07B so roughly on track with Ultron WW-China-Russia. But yeah money was definitely left on the table.

[Bob Train]

Deadpool 3 could be a huge if it's great. But given it's a Shawn Levy-directed Disney multiverse movie, I am not holding my breath.

[HummingLemon496]

Why do people complain about plot holes/scripting in Multiverse of Madness but not in No Way Home? For every dumb thing in Multiverse of Madness there is an even dumber thing in No Way Home.