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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker | 20 DEC 2019 | JJ Abrams to direct | Teaser Page 172

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Cheebs86 said:

Want proof Star Wars isn’t dead? The fact we still talk about TLJ two years later.

 

Want to know when a franchise is losing interest? When people don’t even care to talk about it anymore. 

 

Also  I remember when Star Wars was dead in 1997 because Lucas ruined Han by making Greedo shoot first. I remember when Star Wars was dead in 1999 because of Jar Jar and midichlorians. I remember when it was dead in 2002 because of a terrible romantic plot and Hayden Christensen’s acting. I remember when it was dead in 2005 because Vader screamed “Noooooo!” and ruined his character. I remember when it was dead in 2015 because TFA was a ANH ripoff and Rey was a “Mary Sue”......

 

I have heard this same story for over 20 years, the TLJ version of anger/predicting doom isn’t any more compelling. 

Ok but the difference is that Star Wars just had a massive box office bomb for the first time ever, which did not happen with the prequels or the 1997 re-release. That's why I think it's a sinking ship. I am a lifelong fan so I will be happy to be proven wrong, but if they have incompetent management at the helm then I don't have much hope. Although on the other hand, if Lucas hadn't sold it then maybe we would've never had any other films, so I guess it's better than nothing. Rogue One was pretty good at least.

Edited by Hunch

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I will say that I dislike Kathleen Kennedy, and I am not some alt-right sexist asshole troll. Simply put, I think she doesn't understand Star Wars. Sure she was a good producer. Key word being was. Also being a good producer doesn't mean you are the right person for Star Wars. She is no Kevin Feige, and I honestly feel like she just doesn't get Star Wars. I really dislike how she let Rian Johnson throw out the plot for TLJ and just go and do his own thing. When making a trilogy, you should have a general plan. Also, the way she handled Solo was pretty awful. She royally f'd up there.

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Posted (edited)

I have low opinion on Lucasfilm management in general for following reasons:

 

they have pretty bad relationship with fans. Their over-reliance on mystery box forces fans to seek spoilers from various, sometimes not-so-reliable sources, instead of the studio giving fans something to be excited about. marvel never reveals the whole plot, nor anyone wants them to, but they always post enough content throughout the production to get people excited. That also allows some fans  to develop headcanons that they get so married to they cannot let go of them and are disappointed when the movie shoots them down. Like, there's literally tons of stuff that isn't spoiler from studio POV cause it was never going to happen. yet fans who developed headcanons act like those are "mysteries" that will be resolved in the next movie (since they weren't in the previous one), although those things were never part of the plot and never will be. yet the studio won't come out clean (mostly for they feel it;s pointless and that stubborn fans would think they are hiding something)  and some cast members with social media try to pander to their followers, known for having such unattainable headcanons, by giving vague wait-and-see anything-is-possible answers even though they know the things are not happening. Finally, it doesn't look good to have your director, storygroup and/or actor get into social media fights with fans who didn't like the movie and/or performance. just because someone's a dick for tweeting their anger or condescension it doesn't mean the movie rep should respond in kind. and having the head of the studio say flat out that they owe nothing to old fans is a bad look too considering old fans are still over 60% of any SW opening weekend. they don't have to pander to them or anyone (no fandom likes pandering just for the record) but why single out any demo as not important let alone demo that's still dominant audience for this particular franchise? 

 

so while many attacks on KK&co weer into vile territory that hurts credibility of those attacks, I'd say that Lucasfilm did not manage to build a good relationship with fans unlike Marvel. They have the tools and power to do it, they do market researches, have people whose job is relationship with fans, yet something is lost in translation, something got broken along the way. 

Edited by Valonqar
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3 hours ago, CloneWars said:

 Sure she was a good producer. Key word being was.

She's still a good producer lol.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Hunch said:

Ok but the difference is that Star Wars just had a massive box office bomb for the first time ever, which did not happen with the prequels or the 1997 re-release. That's why I think it's a sinking ship. I am a lifelong fan so I will be happy to be proven wrong, but if they have incompetent management at the helm then I don't have much hope. Although on the other hand, if Lucas hadn't sold it then maybe we would've never had any other films, so I guess it's better than nothing. Rogue One was pretty good at least.

A spin-off results = the mainline franchise is a sinking ship? That is like saying Ant Man and the Wasp doing less than Infinity War means Endgame was going to fall.

 

 

3 hours ago, CloneWars said:

I will say that I dislike Kathleen Kennedy, and I am not some alt-right sexist asshole troll. Simply put, I think she doesn't understand Star Wars. Sure she was a good producer. Key word being was. Also being a good producer doesn't mean you are the right person for Star Wars. She is no Kevin Feige, and I honestly feel like she just doesn't get Star Wars. I really dislike how she let Rian Johnson throw out the plot for TLJ and just go and do his own thing. When making a trilogy, you should have a general plan. Also, the way she handled Solo was pretty awful. She royally f'd up there.

Name me a Star Wars trilogy that was planned out in advance...it doesn't exist. That is not how Star Wars movies have ever been made. Star Wars is not Marvel nor should it be copying Marvel.

Edited by Cheebs86
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Posted (edited)

I also want to say something about TLJ that I don't hear much about. Many accusations against that movie (which I didn't like as a whole but I'm very fond of individual scenes) are that it was low on fan service and high on subverting expectations. I actually disagree. I think that TLJ's biggest falling were fan service moments. so lets go through them:

 

Leia Poppins. this is giving in to fans who were clamoring for Leia to use the Force. So she used the force in the scene that KK found to be beautiful and poignant in the wake of Carrie Fisher passing and she said the scene had to be in the movie. And fans...hated it. It's a butt of jokes now. But execution aside, which obviously didn't click (no build up and general awkwardness of the scene), this is 100% pure undulated fan service.  You asked for Leia to use the Force. She did. be careful what you wish for.

 

Force projection. Fans were clamoring for omni-power Luke. For some reason, there are fans who think Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever. I never got that impression from OT movies but apparently he was in EU or something and old habits die hard. So fans wanted to see Luke at his most powerful. And they got it. Luke performed something never seen before in SW and...fans hated it. "he died from force exhaustion lmao! How the fuck did he die from using too much Force when Rey and Kylo didn't break a sweat doing the same? (they did not, their force connection is not force projection but something totally different, pay attention) Are you telling me that Rey and Kylo are more powerful than Luke fuckin Skywalker???? Mary Sue!". Point being, this is a fan service. Luke exhibits a completely new power that only s super powerful Jedi can perform and it didn't click with fans cause it wasn't how they imagined omni-powerful Luke. Again, be careful what you wish for. You will get your wish but how writers see fit not how you imagined.

 

Yoda burns the tree. The movie that's accused of pandering to various social justice groups commits an environmental faux-pas when Force Ghost Yoda called the lightning from the sky to burn an old tree. Tree lovers and tree huggers were not amused and neither were fans who know by heart what a Force Ghost can and cannot do. yes, the moment was badass but it broke its own universe rules! And that's unforgivable. Fan service should be within the boundaries of established rules and lore, not adding something new that contradicts either. WTF was Storygroup thinking or did Rian just dismiss their advice not to proceed with this stupidity? But whether you agree or not, point stands that Yoda the God of Thunder was a big fan service that created controversy albeit in lesser degree than fan services above. 

 

 

Edited by Valonqar

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33 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

and having the head of the studio say flat out that they owe nothing to old fans is a bad look too considering old fans are still over 60% of any SW opening weekend. they don't have to pander to them or anyone (no fandom likes pandering just for the record) but why single out any demo as not important let alone demo that's still dominant audience for this particular franchise? 

Kathy Kennedy has never said anything even close to "we owe nothing to old fans", which you just attributed to her. Never has said a negative word about old fans nor never said they don't owe anything to them.

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2 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

Fan service should be within the boundaries of established rules and lore, not adding something new that contradicts either. WTF was Storygroup thinking or did Rian just dismiss their advice not to proceed with this stupidity?

What force power does that contradict? They never said that was impossible in past movies. Also "not adding something new"? Every single Star Wars saga movie to date has added new force powers. Why is there suddenly a rule where we can't change how the Force works and what is capable in the Force when all the Lucas era films did that each film?

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1 minute ago, Cheebs86 said:

Kathy Kennedy has never said anything even close to "we owe nothing to old fans", which you just attributed to her. Never has said a negative word about old fans nor never said they don't owe anything to them.

you are right, my bad. the quote is actually:

 

 

"I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, 'Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.'"

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Just now, Cheebs86 said:

What force power does that contradict? They never said that was impossible in past movies. Also "not adding something new"? Every single Star Wars saga movie to date has added new force powers. Why is there suddenly a rule where we can't change how the Force works and what is capable in the Force when all the Lucas era films did that each film?

don't shoot the messenger. :) I just listed complaints against the scene that I saw on various forums. 

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Just now, Valonqar said:

don't shoot the messenger. :) I just listed complaints against the scene that I saw on various forums. 

And as discussed before, most of the fanboy complaints about the film are nonsense and really silly. There is a reason TLJ was loved by critics. It was a really really well made movie. Absurd fanboy head canon complaints will never change that.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Cheebs86 said:

And as discussed before, most of the fanboy complaints about the film are nonsense and really silly. There is a reason TLJ was loved by critics. It was a really really well made movie. Absurd fanboy head canon complaints will never change that.

I get that. I'm just saying that, when you look at it, biggest complains are in areas where the movie did fan service. so moral of the story, just tell the story don't try to service. 

 

EDIT: LMAO! Just as I typed that, I went over to /tv/ and sure enough there's this thread:

 

"WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF PROJECTING YOURSELF SOMEWHERE ELSE SO YOU DON'T PHYSICALLY HAVE TO BE A PART OF A BATTLE IF YOU'RE GONNA FUCKING DIE "

 

:hahaha:

Edited by Valonqar

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Posted (edited)

4chan is an alt-right haven, I am not sure anyone should care what they think about anything.

Edited by Cheebs86

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6 minutes ago, Cheebs86 said:

4chan is an alt-right haven, I am not sure anyone should care what they think about anything.

I don't like to be locked in any echo chamber so I read various forums with different opinions. otherwise I would end up thinking everyone shares my world view and then get shocked to find out that's not the case. they may not have any more influence than woke twitter stirring shit over naomi scott's ethnicity (apparently it was deemed unsuitable for Jasmine) and mena massoud's religion (Christian playing a Muslim) but both exist so I want to know what both and everyone between think. :)

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Cheebs86 said:

And as discussed before, most of the fanboy complaints about the film are nonsense and really silly. There is a reason TLJ was loved by critics. It was a really really well made movie. Absurd fanboy head canon complaints will never change that.

What about all the legitimate complaints? I'm neither a SW fanboy nor hater and i find the ratings TLJ got pretty ridiculous. That movie is the definition of "meh"...

Edited by Elessar

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34 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

I also want to say something about TLJ that I don't hear much about. Many accusations against that movie (which I didn't like as a whole but I'm very fond of individual scenes) are that it was low on fan service and high on subverting expectations. I actually disagree. I think that TLJ's biggest falling were fan service moments. so lets go through them:

 

Leia Poppins. this is giving in to fans who were clamoring for Leia to use the Force. So she used the force in the scene that KK found to be beautiful and poignant in the wake of Carrie Fisher passing and she said the scene had to be in the movie. And fans...hated it. It's a butt of jokes now. But execution aside, which obviously didn't click (no build up and general awkwardness of the scene), this is 100% pure undulated fan service.  You asked for Leia to use the Force. She did. be careful what you wish for.

 

Force projection. Fans were clamoring for omni-power Luke. For some reason, there are fans who think Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever. I never got that impression from OT movies but apparently he was in EU or something and old habits die hard. So fans wanted to see Luke at his most powerful. And they got it. Luke performed something never seen before in SW and...fans hated it. "he died from force exhaustion lmao! How the fuck did he die from using too much Force when Rey and Kylo didn't break a sweat doing the same? (they did not, their force connection is not force projection but something totally different, pay attention) Are you telling me that Rey and Kylo are more powerful than Luke fuckin Skywalker???? Mary Sue!". Point being, this is a fan service. Luke exhibits a completely new power that only s super powerful Jedi can perform and it didn't click with fans cause it wasn't how they imagined omni-powerful Luke. Again, be careful what you wish for. You will get your wish but how writers see fit not how you imagined.

 

Yoda burns the tree. The movie that's accused of pandering to various social justice groups commits an environmental faux-pas when Force Ghost Yoda called the lightning from the sky to burn an old tree. Tree lovers and tree huggers were not amused and neither were fans who know by heart what a Force Ghost can and cannot do. yes, the moment was badass but it broke its own universe rules! And that's unforgivable. Fan service should be within the boundaries of established rules and lore, not adding something new that contradicts either. WTF was Storygroup thinking or did Rian just dismiss their advice not to proceed with this stupidity? But whether you agree or not, point stands that Yoda the God of Thunder was a big fan service that created controversy albeit in lesser degree than fan services above. 

 

 

I honestly don't see such a problem with any of these, just felt that the visuals looked slightly off during Leia Poppins scenes and the scene, in general, was a little weird.

Also, I kinda liked the scene with the force projection and him dying after it, I thought it was well done.

The Yoda scene really was kinda confusing and I didn't like the ideas behind it that much, but movies add something new every time at least I hope they do unless they are 100% remakes.

 

I honestly hope that RTOS is more about telling a good and interesting story than about stupid and pointless fan service, making a great movie would be so much more fan service than just putting in some small scenes.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Taruseth said:

I honestly don't see such a problem with any of these, just felt that the visuals looked slightly off during Leia Poppins scenes and the scene, in general, was a little weird.

Also, I kinda liked the scene with the force projection and him dying after it, I thought it was well done.

The Yoda scene really was kinda confusing and I didn't like the ideas behind it that much, but movies add something new every time at least I hope they do unless they are 100% remakes.

 

I honestly hope that RTOS is more about telling a good and interesting story than about stupid and pointless fan service, making a great movie would be so much more fan service than just putting in some small scenes.

yes, I didn't have problem with those 2 scenes either. the first one looked off but I get the idea behind it. luke dying scene was actually very important. I'll explain:

 

starwarsVIII_7940.jpg

 

he sees binary sunset but it's really 2 halves, the upper half of one sun and the bottom half of another sun. 2 halves should make a whole not remain separated, geddit? so he has that "aha" look on his face and then sees the whole sun:

 

noug6qws4jc7.gif

 

and becomes the one with the force. Just my speculation:

 

 

I don't think that the endgame is revival of the Jedi Academy. I think that endgame is the new kind of the force user, neither Jedi nor Sith (aka 2 halves), but more akin to:

 


 

d11i5pb6ub601.jpg

 

who is the whole. perhaps the theory that they'll be called Skywalker will come true. I think that Rey and Kylo are going to be the first of that kind.

 

Edited by Valonqar

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I liked TLJ as an individual movie.  I didn't think it worked particularly well as a franchise movie.  Kind of reminded me of how I feel about Alien 3.  Good monster movie on its own, but a franchise killer.  TLJ felt the same disconnect from the rest of the franchise.  As a standalone, it was beautiful, there were some good character moments, an interesting story, etc.  Not perfect, but I liked it.  But, as the second part of a major franchise trilogy, all those things built up in TFA had little to no payoff (though, this can be rectified/retconned in TRoS), and the new things and characters introduced were not particularly interesting or connected to the primary story.  I know SW has never been cohesively planned the way the MCU is, but it still felt disconnected in a way that I am surprised the powers that be missed.  I still enjoyed TLJ.  There are some great moments.  It is beautifully shot in places.   I loved seeing Mark again as Luke.   But, I walked out sort of deflated by it all, whereas I left TFA with such incredible excitement for what was to come.  I just wish a little more thought had gone into making these three movies work together instead of fighting to fit together as a singular story arc.

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I still fail to see what TLJ retconned that TFA should re-retcon. And everything that was said in both official interviews and from reliable sources points at no retconning in TROS but building on what TLJ established. 

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