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[Plain Old Tele]

There are a lot of dumb people in the world and making a complex film eliminates that large chunk of audience, you need them to hit these heights.

 

It's not even a case of "dumb" versus "smart". It's presenting characters and stories that are identifiable and relatable to everyone worldwide, whether you live in Scandanavia or Germany or Zimbabwe or Korea or Chile or Indonesia or.........

[Jessie]

Yes, yes, and maybe.  In terms of "realism", I don't think Quaritch is very far-fetched at all, compared to other colonizing military commanders throughout history.

I like and hate the fact he's coming back for the sequels. On one hand, he was a scene stealer and it would be great to see him back, on the other I think it's wrong to resurrect dead characters, it diminishes what's at stake and I just kind of feel cheated when it happens. It's like a directors 'get out of jail free' card.

[Plain Old Tele]

I like and hate the fact he's coming back for the sequels. On one hand, he was a scene stealer and it would be great to see him back, on the other I think it's wrong to resurrect dead characters, it diminishes what's at stake and I just kind of feel cheated when it happens. It's like a directors 'get out of jail free' card.

 

That's true, it'll be interesting to see how that's dealt with.

[Dark Jedi Master 007]

Yes, yes, and maybe.  In terms of "realism", I don't think Quaritch is very far-fetched at all, compared to other colonizing military commanders throughout history.

Going to disagree with your answers here. I personally think a more complex packaging to the message would've been much better. Why? Mainly because the environmental problem we're dealing with is actually far more complex than a bunch of douchebags are deciding not to respect nature. We've all heard about how important it is to respect Planet Earth and how beautiful it is. Yet, global warming is still a massive issue, perhaps even a growing one. This points to the fact that it's far more complex than how this movie makes it out to be and that its solutions will probably not come from some singing around a tree and teaching the Jake Sullys of the world to fight back.Of course, if Cameron went that far with his idea, he might have not made this type of movie. Instead opting for a smaller film without any large action sequences or ground-breaking visuals. So I'm not suggesting that he carry his idea to this height of complexity, but I do think he could have done something more complex than making it this dry. He didn't need to present the problem as super-complex, but perhaps give us more complex villains or even more complex heroes who struggle with the problem more. I think the message would have still gotten through.As for Quaritch, I see your point. But I would raise a point that I brought up earlier, which is that it would be interesting to see why Quaritch is conditioned to think like that. Add something new to the stock character. IDK, I think that's my only problem with the film, I felt like I wasn't experiencing anything new with any of it, except the visuals. But while I was in awe about what I was seeing, I never was really moved by it. It's like your point in the Star Wars thread, emotion > technical mastery. 

[Jessie]

It's not even a case of "dumb" versus "smart". It's presenting characters and stories that are identifiable and relatable to everyone worldwide, whether you live in Scandanavia or Germany or Zimbabwe or Korea or Chile or Indonesia or.........

Different cultured then, but there are dumb people out there, I wasn't referring to other countries as 'dumb'

[Phil in the Blank]

I think the character that needed to be made complex the most was Jake Scully. I mean, Quaritch is basically right when he calls Jake a traitor to his species. Despite the corporate greed you do get the impression that their are billions of people back home that are in need of this mineral to maintain a quality of life and Jake doesn't show any remorse in swapping sides. Get your legs back, if only in Avatar form, and find a hot alien chick to bang and all those people back home suddenly don't seem at all important.

 

If Jake could have at least struggled a little more with his decision I could easily have seen myself come along for the ride rather than simply not caring at all about the outcome of the movie.

[Plain Old Tele]

Going to disagree with your answers here. I personally think a more complex packaging to the message would've been much better. Why? Mainly because the environmental problem we're dealing with is actually far more complex than a bunch of douchebags are deciding not to respect nature. We've all heard about how important it is to respect Planet Earth and how beautiful it is. Yet, global warming is still a massive issue, perhaps even a growing one. This points to the fact that it's far more complex than how this movie makes it out to be and that its solutions will probably not come from some singing around a tree and teaching the Jake Sullys of the world to fight back.

As for Quaritch, I see your point. But I would raise a point that I brought up earlier, which is that it would be interesting to see why Quaritch is conditioned to think like that. Add something new to the stock character. IDK, I think that's my only problem with the film, I felt like I wasn't experiencing anything new with any of it, except the visuals. But while I was in awe about what I was seeing, I never was really moved by it. It's like your point in the Star Wars thread, emotion > technical mastery.

 

I agree and disagree. Personally, yes, I think the characters could've been more complicated... or at least their classic stereotypes could've been changed up a bit. But I understand why he erred on the side of safety there. In terms of parallels to eco-systems on Earth, it's more metaphorical than literal. The specific issues and problems with Pandora aren't a 1:1 comparison to the issues and problems here, and AVATAR was also focusing a good deal on colonial militarism, which takes more from Earth's past history. 

 

In terms of Quaritch, he's pretty much your classic hard-nosed guy, but in spite of him being an obvious and blunt villain, he's presented with more nuance than I think Cameron gets credit for, particularly in the first half of the movie. There's no subterfuge about his relationship with Sully... he's being honest and forthright with him and clearly sees him as a protege, which makes his anger at being "betrayed" very understandable.

 

Different cultured then, but there are dumb people out there, I wasn't referring to other countries as 'dumb'

 

Yes, I know, I wasn't trying to say that's what you meant.

[Dark Jedi Master 007]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here, Tele. I can't really respond with anything new, except to say that while I see your points and understand them, I still can't get behind the character or the movie's simplicity. I still liked it though.

[Plain Old Tele]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here, Tele. I can't really respond with anything new, except to say that while I see your points and understand them, I still can't get behind the character or the movie's simplicity. I still liked it though.

 

Fair enough.

[Jessie]

I think the character that needed to be made complex the most was Jake Scully. I mean, Quaritch is basically right when he calls Jake a traitor to his species. Despite the corporate greed you do get the impression that their are billions of people back home that are in need of this mineral to maintain a quality of life and Jake doesn't show any remorse in swapping sides. Get your legs back, if only in Avatar form, and find a hot alien chick to bang and all those people back home suddenly don't seem at all important. If Jake could have at least struggled a little more with his decision I could easily have seen myself come along for the ride rather than simply not caring at all about the outcome of the movie.

I got the impression that he just had no - one back at home, he'd been treated like shit after all its the future and they are basically making him work to get his legs back despite losing them on the battlefield I assumed. His decision seemed normal to me, he had nothing to go back to and after experiencing the life style and 'falling in love' I could understand why he'd want to put a stop to what was about to come. I do think they should have given him a little more back story but the lack of it made me automatically assume he was just a nobody.

[vc2002]

Can we call  the last 2 pages the most peaceful Avatar-related discussion ever existed on the internet?

[Plain Old Tele]

The extended cut is a better movie, IMO... It addresses or touches on some of the problems people have mentioned.

[The Stingray]

Cameron needed to make story, characters and their motivations simplistic in order to cater to as many people as possible. I believe that was all intentional.

[dashrendar44]

I got the impression that he just had no - one back at home, he'd been treated like shit after all its the future and they are basically making him work to get his legs back despite losing them on the battlefield I assumed. His decision seemed normal to me, he had nothing to go back to and after experiencing the life style and 'falling in love' I could understand why he'd want to put a stop to what was about to come. I do think they should have given him a little more back story but the lack of it made me automatically assume he was just a nobody.

 

His life is emptiness until he is sent on Pandora. Remember what he says when he is brought to the Na'vi's reluctant to teach him their ways, he basically replies "You can't fill an already full cup", he's there to start over, to fill his existential void, ready to open his mind and we see how he is born again. "Being born again" is one of the symbolic themes running through the movie. See the parrallelism when Sully's twin coffin is entering the sas to get burned and Sully's coffin is brought out of his spaceship sas after months of stasis like a newborn reincarnation (Hence the title) out of a womb. After Home tree disaster, he is erratic, alone in limbos then he comes back from that dust field plagued by death, transfigured and reborn as a phoenix (as the new avatar or incarnation of the Toruk Makto), and guess what, he is riding a red dragon on top of it to hammer the point home . And there you have the ending shot completing the cycle. That's a pretty well constructed subtext embodied throughout the structure of the script if you ask me.

 

We see how that character is finally treated as a man on that planet, we see him growing from an outcast brat that becomes a warrior respected among his fellows. His life was crap as an outcast beforehand and being an outcast is what will make him stand on Pandora, that's all we need to know as a backstory to understand how he reacts during the movie.

 

That's maybe simple but that's effective and straight-forward, you don't really need more.

Edited March 20, 2014 by dashrendar44

[Jessie]

His life is emptiness until he is sent on Pandora. Remember what he says when he is brought to the Na'vi's reluctant to teach him their ways, he basically replies "You can't fill an already full cup", he's there to start over, to fill his existential void, ready to open his mind and we see how he is born again. "Being born again" is one of the themes running through the movie. See the parrallelism when Sully's twin coffin is entering the sas to get burned and Sully's coffin is brought out of his spaceship sas after months of stasis like a newborn reincarnation (Hence the title) out of a womb. After Home tree disaster, he is erratic, alone in limbos then he comes back from that dust field plagued by death, transfigured and reborn as a phenix (as the new avatar or incarnation of the Toruk Makto), and guess what, he is riding a red dragon on top of it to hammer the point home . And there you have the ending shot completing the cycle. That's a pretty well constructed subtext embodied throughout the structure of the script if you ask me. We see how that character is finally treated as a man on that planet, we see him growing from an outcast brat that becomes a warrior respected among his fellows. His life was crap as an outcast beforehand and being an outcast is what will make him stand on Pandora, that's all we need to know as a backstory to understand how he reacts during the movie. That's maybe simple but that's effective and straight-forward, you don't really need more.

Nicely said dash.

[vc2002]

His life is emptiness until he is sent on Pandora. Remember what he says when he is brought to the Na'vi's reluctant to teach him their ways, he basically replies "You can't fill an already full cup", he's there to start over, to fill his existential void, ready to open his mind and we see how he is born again. "Being born again" is one of the symbolic themes running through the movie. See the parrallelism when Sully's twin coffin is entering the sas to get burned and Sully's coffin is brought out of his spaceship sas after months of stasis like a newborn reincarnation (Hence the title) out of a womb. After Home tree disaster, he is erratic, alone in limbos then he comes back from that dust field plagued by death, transfigured and reborn as a phoenix (as the new avatar or incarnation of the Toruk Makto), and guess what, he is riding a red dragon on top of it to hammer the point home . And there you have the ending shot completing the cycle. That's a pretty well constructed subtext embodied throughout the structure of the script if you ask me.

 

We see how that character is finally treated as a man on that planet, we see him growing from an outcast brat that becomes a warrior respected among his fellows. His life was crap as an outcast beforehand and being an outcast is what will make him stand on Pandora, that's all we need to know as a backstory to understand how he reacts during the movie.

 

That's maybe simple but that's effective and straight-forward, you don't really need more.

 

Well explained. Sometimes less is more. I think a perfect "opposite" example would be Prometheus, which they tried so hard to slam so many background stories on those main characters in order to explain the motivations of their behaviors, but as a result the movie ended up becoming a mess.

[Ozymandias]

Avatar is a cheesy, naive, 1 dimensional, and a derivative as they come movie wrapped up in pretty CGI.

 

Oh, and Sam Woodington.

 

[vc2002]

Avatar is a cheesy, naive, 1 dimensional, and a derivative as they come movie wrapped up in pretty CGI.

 

Oh, and Sam Woodington.

 

 

There goes our peacefull discussion.

[Jessie]

There goes our peacefull discussion.

You just had to bring up Prometheus didn't you lol

[Ozymandias]

There goes our peacefull discussion.

 

Na, carry on.  I saw 2 new pages here and I figured I'd drop by for a sec, talking about this movie in detail anymore is beating a dead horse.