AniNate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) I understood all of that. In fact, those answers simply express the complaint of my questions, not any answers to them. Like I said, I enjoyed the movie a lot. Don't take me wrong, but those weak-points in the story were what held it back from being as hailed as films like Up, TS3 or Wall-E. Well, color me confused because some of your complaints are of the exact opposite nature of my explanations. You claimed the bow and suitors weren't significant and I showed how they were. Edited June 27, 2012 by tribefan695 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoot Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Again, what twist? Am I the only one (besides critics) who, although really liking the movie, recognizes that the movie was simply not as well written as past Pixar films? The fact that the bow became simply a metaphor of her independence but she didn't do anything significant with it at the climax of the film? The fact that the witch was thrown in randomly in the middle and excused with a joke quickly afterward? The rock falling on the giant bear as the finish of the battle? The suitors storyline being old/irrelevant? Much of the narrative seemed like it was opened up simply because they needed something, but then they cheated on its conclusion because they realized they couldn't tie it together. Maybe they needed more time? Or it was simply a matter of opportunity cost (run-length). The movie was missing that perfect through-line of Wall-E, Up, etc. It's not in the Pixar pantheon IMO, but everybody's got a different list. I wouldn't place this on the same level as Rat, FN, Incredibles, and TS3. I'd put it alongside WALL-E and Up, which while I thought were great, I still found them to have holes (bigger ones than in Brave I think, but that's with me seeing Brave only once and those others at least 5x)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem2x3 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Well, color me confused because some of your complaints are of the exact opposite nature of my explanations. You claimed the bow and suitors weren't significant and I showed how they were. The bow wasn't anymore significant than her grabbing a random sword and defending her mother with that. And I said climax, which was the height/finish of the battle. The bow should have played a role in finishing Mordu. Maybe the rock was so close to falling, and she has a moment like when she was aiming at the last target earlier, however instead of shooting the bear, she shoots the crack in the rock, making it fall. The rock just falling finally was quite underwhelming. The suitors were a cheap plot mechanism to force her to run away. They resolved it with a quick speech because they needed to finish the bear storyline. Little more than that. The witch was a cheap plot mechanism at her point, and they resolved it the way they did because she wasn't integral to the story. They just needed an excuse to turn the mother into a bear. More likely, she should have been included somehow at the beginning of the movie, rather than forcing her in later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem2x3 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 It's not in the Pixar pantheon IMO, but everybody's got a different list. I wouldn't place this on the same level as Rat, FN, Incredibles, and TS3. I'd put it alongside WALL-E and Up, which while I thought were great, I still found them to have holes (bigger ones than in Brave I think, but that's with me seeing Brave only once and those others at least 5x)... Fair enough. Just out of curiosity, what were your major holes in UP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoot Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Fair enough. Just out of curiosity, what were your major holes in UP? Off the top of my head - really Carl Fredricksen who needs a walker to get around, is strong enough to save himself and Kevin by hanging off the wing (or something like that) at the end? I found this more glaring after every watch as I got nitpicky... Not just that, I know there were a couple of instances where I thought, Carl should not be able to do that. Like, he blew up all those balloons, enough to carry a house, in one night? And as the beginning of that movie feels so strong, the end of the movie seems so rushed. Can't pinpoint right now, but that's just the feeling I got after a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Gary Scott Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Saw it today loved it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AniNate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 The bow wasn't anymore significant than her grabbing a random sword and defending her mother with that. And I said climax, which was the height/finish of the battle. The bow should have played a role in finishing Mordu. Maybe the rock was so close to falling, and she has a moment like when she was aiming at the last target earlier, however instead of shooting the bear, she shoots the crack in the rock, making it fall. The rock just falling finally was quite underwhelming. Elinor's objection was weapons in general. Since a bow was what Merida had on her at the time, that was what she used. It would carry a significance regardless of what kind of weapon it was. I think the problem here is you're going off the idea that Merida is the one and only protagonist when she really isn't. Elinor has just as much of a character arc as she does and I don't think the climax suffers because she was the one who finished off Mor'du, and in a way that makes more logical sense than firing an arrow at a crack. It's the whole crux of Merida's frustration with her mother. She's been annoyed with what her mother has been forcing her to do her entire life and the suitor thing was simply the last straw. Heck, it wasn't even them that ultimately caused her to run away, it was her mother's fit of rage. I suppose if you want you can shake your head at the film's naivete that if all the kids just spoke out the adults would understand, but I don't see how it's any worse than HTTYD's message. A "plot mechanism", maybe, but why a cheap one? Not every human character has to be fully developed. Yes, ultimately she is just another gear that drives Merida's adventure. So what? I really don't see how any of the "plot mechanisms" in Brave make any less sense than those in Pixar's other films. I could poke holes in those stories to my heart's content if I wanted, but since I enjoy the adventure, I don't complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJohn Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Off the top of my head - really Carl Fredricksen who needs a walker to get around, is strong enough to save himself and Kevin by hanging off the wing (or something like that) at the end? I found this more glaring after every watch as I got nitpicky... Not just that, I know there were a couple of instances where I thought, Carl should not be able to do that. Like, he blew up all those balloons, enough to carry a house, in one night? And as the beginning of that movie feels so strong, the end of the movie seems so rushed. Can't pinpoint right now, but that's just the feeling I got after a while. I never understood the kid's story . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoot Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 With all these spoilers maybe we should move all this to the review thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddddeeee Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Which songs are eligible for the oscars? The rule is that it has to play during the movie or first in the end credits, so what does that apply to? The two songs Doyle wrote obviously but what about the three 'inspired by' ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AniNate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 With all these spoilers maybe we should move all this to the review thread? I was hoping I'd get to do it at least once. Finally a chance to do some passionate defense of this movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem2x3 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Off the top of my head - really Carl Fredricksen who needs a walker to get around, is strong enough to save himself and Kevin by hanging off the wing (or something like that) at the end? I found this more glaring after every watch as I got nitpicky... Not just that, I know there were a couple of instances where I thought, Carl should not be able to do that. Like, he blew up all those balloons, enough to carry a house, in one night? And as the beginning of that movie feels so strong, the end of the movie seems so rushed. Can't pinpoint right now, but that's just the feeling I got after a while. all fair I guess lol It's the whole crux of Merida's frustration with her mother. She's been annoyed with what her mother has been forcing her to do her entire life and the suitor thing was simply the last straw. Heck, it wasn't even them that ultimately caused her to run away, it was her mother's fit of rage. I suppose if you want you can shake your head at the film's naivete that if all the kids just spoke out the adults would understand, but I don't see how it's any worse than HTTYD's message. A "plot mechanism", maybe, but why a cheap one? Not every human character has to be fully developed. Yes, ultimately she is just another gear that drives Merida's adventure. So what? I really don't see how any of the "plot mechanisms" in Brave make any less sense than those in Pixar's other films. I could poke holes in those stories to my heart's content if I wanted, but since I enjoy the adventure, I don't complain. Most other Pixar films make all of those elements much more seamless; however, since this back and forth is primarily comprised of me saying that these were weak points and you simply saying that these aren't weak points -- I'll leave it at that? . His storyline functioned in a few ways. Primarily, he was the son that Carl and Ellie never had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AniNate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Which songs are eligible for the oscars? The rule is that it has to play during the movie or first in the end credits, so what does that apply to? The two songs Doyle wrote obviously but what about the three 'inspired by' ones? They all should be eligible. Fowlis' songs play during the film and Learn Me Right plays in the movie's epilogue and into the end credits. Edited June 27, 2012 by tribefan695 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem2x3 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I was hoping I'd get to do it at least once. Finally a chance to do some passionate defense of this movie. lol, so you want the chance? I wasn't going to say it, but... Tangled was a much better movie than Brave. Or link me to wherever you'd like to continue if you like. I'm working at my desk all day, and love these types of discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AniNate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) lol, so you want the chance? I wasn't going to say it, but... Tangled was a much better movie than Brave. Or link me to wherever you'd like to continue if you like. I'm working at my desk all day, and love these types of discussions. For me it's down to the endings: Brave's worked, Tangled's didn't. But you're right, it seems we're simply not going to come to an agreement on this and there wouldn't be much point going further. Edited June 27, 2012 by tribefan695 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem2x3 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I hope something from Brave wins the oscar for Best Song. Animated movies always seem to have the best music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJohn Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) His storyline functioned in a few ways. Primarily, he was the son that Carl and Ellie never had. The kid had no parents, right? Edited June 27, 2012 by CJohn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddddeeee Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I hope something from Brave wins the oscar for Best Song. Animated movies always seem to have the best music. This is far and away the best song IMO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CgJInUF7-Y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem2x3 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 The kid had no parents, right? He had a bum dad that cared more about his new GF than the kid himself. I think the mom might have been at the ceremony at the end, but not entirely sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AniNate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Off the top of my head - really Carl Fredricksen who needs a walker to get around, is strong enough to save himself and Kevin by hanging off the wing (or something like that) at the end? I found this more glaring after every watch as I got nitpicky... Not just that, I know there were a couple of instances where I thought, Carl should not be able to do that. Like, he blew up all those balloons, enough to carry a house, in one night? And as the beginning of that movie feels so strong, the end of the movie seems so rushed. Can't pinpoint right now, but that's just the feeling I got after a while. On Pete Docter's DVD commentary he outright admits to taking a lot of narrative shortcuts to make the story work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
