ZattMurdock

Nothing is going to be cancelled. I can assure you on that. At the most Kang is going to be recast, and I say this not entirely sure if he hasn’t been recast already. Loki’s Season 2 spoilers:

I wouldn’t discard that just yet. It might work. I think it’s cool to have a Native superheroine out there. Gives me hope for Thunderbird and Warpath.

It’s crazy to read shit like this after the exposé on how Across the Spider-Verse was ran like a sweat shop. No, Across the Spider-Verse isn’t the example we want Marvel Studios OR Pixar and US animation for that matter when it comes to its budget. If anyone here actually needs a reminder: https://www.vulture.com/2023/06/spider-verse-animation-four-artists-on-making-the-sequel.html

I think what rubs me the wrong way in this Variety article is how poorly researched it was. I doubt that someone like Borys Kit would write that bit about Kang being replaced by Doctor Doom. I know that it’s the nerd in me, I know that Thanos was presented to the mainstream audiences since The Avengers, but just… come on. There is no realm or timeline that Secret Wars was ever going to be a film having Kang as the center villain. Yes the Infinity Saga (Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War and Infinity Crusade) are quite popular, Thanos is the obvious villain there - it gets complicated later there but still - but Secret Wars is how Doctor Doom usurps power to become an actual god. I’m not asking for Variety to know the ins and outs, but people have been speculating who Doctor Doom will be not just because of the Fantastic Four, but especially because Secret Wars. It’s such a nerd pet peeve, but still. I think you and others should rest assured that there are ways to not involve Majors and yet not recast Kang, the multiverse saga gives this freedom and I think they have the actual best actor to play Kang right there with them. It’s all about deception. Think Keyser Söze, Ra’s Al Ghul, etc.

I wouldn’t sincerely worry about that. This kind of worry doesn’t make sense to me. I mean, there was no more troubled blockbuster production than Rogue One and that ended up becoming one of the best Star Wars films of all time. If the film is good, the reviews will call it, if it isn’t, it isn’t. The single time I’ve disagreed with reviewers when it comes to the MCU was with Love and Thunder, the rest I can definitely see their points.

Not sure if I’d call ‘woke’, but I think Blade having a daughter might be something they use to differentiate from the previous films. Think more like while Gunn is prepping Brave and the Bold with Batman and Damien as Robin, Blade might end up featuring also his daughter. I wouldn’t call what they’d go with either woke. If you mean featuring a female woke I don’t know, but I do think that’s what they might be aiming here:

Raw strength or cosmic powers was never Kang’s thing. Kang’s biggest assets has always been intelligence and… misdirection. Which would fit like a glove if they opt for a recast. Remember, through the multiverse not every person look the same:

You are misunderstanding me. Kang is whoever Marvel tells us he/she is. There is some things happening in Loki that leads me to think that you don’t really need to to recast him at all. The answer might be there at the show all along. It doesn’t involve Majors.

I mean, there was never an ounce of possibility that Doom wouldn’t be the villain in Secret Wars. That’s not really a spoiler, it’s Marvel’s most famous saga. As for Kang, there is a solution that @Arlbornsuggested but I think it would be a waste of the character and the storyline that is ongoing in the MCU. There are three perfect candidates to take over as Kang based in the Loki series itself, you don’t even really need a recast. They are all there in Loki’s season 2.

I’m sorry but DiscussingFilm and Variety could do a better job at contextualizing this. Anyone believing Kang would be THE villain in Secret Wars don’t know the source material. I imagine that Majors might end up getting recast as Kang yes, but Doctor Doom would ALWAYS be the Secret Wars villain. It’s sort of like thinking there would be a remote chance that Thanos wouldn’t be Infinity War’s and Endgame’s villain.

For context, this is the part of the article that talks about The Marvels: Also I’d argue that if anything, this article seems weird. If this is on Disney or anyone else, I don’t know. It’s not unusual to a director to work in prep for a different film during post-production. I could list several MCU films that were made like that, it all depends which kind of pre-production the director is doing in another project.

I called this 4 years ago. They will bring them together one last time with Secret Wars. No variants, the actual real deal. They are the missing link between what the Infinity Saga actually entails and how Stark is the perfect character to play the role that Reed plays by the end of Jonathan Hickman’s Secret Wars. His sacrifice happened. Same for Natasha’s. But the Infinity Saga has loopholes that goes beyond the multiverse.

The film starts with T’Challa’s funeral due to an invisible enemy that not even Wakanda’s and Earth’s greatest genius could find a cure for and ends with Shuri learning the lesson that her mother taught him about once you let go of your grief and anger, you can once again find peace and feel your loved ones. Ramonda had to die to develop Shuri’s arc for the same reason that King T’Chaka had to die. The Black Panther’s pathos it’s about tragedy, legacy and learning how to become a leader to your people. It’s interesting that Shuri diverges on that last part. While I think it’s derailing the thread, I strongly disagree that T’Challa needed to be recast. T’Challa is dead. And while Wakanda Forever is a hard film to watch, it’s one of the best MCU films, the cast did everything possible to step in and the void that is T’Challa not being there is obviously felt, both by the people that worked with him and treated him as family and the whole world that learned to love him as well. A new T’Challa will rise, eventually. That he is the son of T’Challa makes his inevitable arrival even more special as far as I’m concerned. Not disagreeing with you, but other than The Avengers, Thor: The Dark World and Guardians of the Galaxy, all the other MCU films had a very loose connective tissue to the Infinity Saga that only became apparent with Infinity War and Endgame. I think that creating several theories about the whys and hows kind of a useless exercise, because a lot of the MCU’s criticisms are cyclical for those following long enough. The beauty of the MCU is that not even the most savvy and knowledgeable of the comic book fans truly know where it is going and end up surprised because they aren’t slavish to the source material, but just like I could kinda see it where they were going with the Infinity Saga with each passing film, a lot of people did not. Very few is talked about the actual The Marvels film here, but it’s clear with the latest promo that The Marvels is touching subplots that actually lead to Secret Wars: I think this film gambled a lot on Brie, Teyonah and Iman promoting the shit out of the film, and that unfortunately for a situation beyond the artists control wasn’t possible so far. I do think that it’s possible that they are holding this one close to their chest because the spoilers are sensitive to the MCU’s future, and that there was still some hope that the strike could be resolved before the film’s release. I’ve watched DaCosta’s Candyman over the weekend instead of going over trailers and promos and she is clearly a talented director. I feel like people trashed this film so much for months years that might have a whiplash effect and actually be well received. Unlike Wakanda Forever, a film like this might be exactly what the MCU needs right now. Whatever it is, we’ll know soon enough.

I’m not sure if the new generation of nerds hang around this message board. I’d imagine they do not, but whenever people trash Ghostbusters for Egon’s granddaughter being the main focus of Afterlife, Star Wars because of Rey or Marvel because of whatever female character is in the order of the day to hate on, I think of little moments like this: I’m glad that a new generation is getting the toys I used to play around with. Afterlife was about not really pleasing the old fans nostalgia, but forging a new fandom around the franchise. Yeah yeah, cynical money cash grab by Sony yes, but you can say that about literally every single blockbusters made by any of the studios. Shit like this warms my heart.

If a message board has a very bad understanding of how to foster productive engagement, it dies. As a MCU fan, I don’t think any of us are asking for ‘safe spaces", but the bare absolutely minimum that it doesn’t revolve on people hating the film ‘ franchise 24/7 and mocking the MCU fans for not being around as much. If me or anyone said most of the stuff that is said here on different threads, I’d be rightfully threadbanned / suspended. No one is asking for special treatment, just that there is a glaring double standard going on. It didn’t start with The Marvels, but I do think that the end of the Franchise Wars thread did actual more harm than good for BOT’s healthy discourse as a whole. If every thread has become a fan wars shitfest, then have they even gone away actually? As far as I can tell, The Marvels thread is shock full with the same kind of vitriol you’d see on any MCU thread that came before, or Disney’s for that matter. You can’t have a thriving message board based on who hates more x franchise. It was the reason those flame war threads were created to begin with, to help isolate poisoning the well discourse. Interestingly, and to agree with @Porthos point, success breeds contempt, and what is happening now is kinda no different than what old timers like me or @druv10 that doesn’t even post here haven’t seen before. The difference between now and then isn’t really a “Marvel’s decline", but unlike other franchises, BOT has become more and more aggressively unwelcome to MCU fans. I sincerely have lost any will insisting on being an active BOT member, I just reacted to the post about the lack of the MCU fans presence here because I feel like it’s kind of a shame that this place has become a place where people will make their personalities hating x thing. As an active member here for the last 11 years, I talked about all kinds of films, from blockbusters to indies, and I kinda wish the new gen could see what BOT was when it was at its prime. TL;DR: Users that have their whole online personality on BOT based on hating The Marvels shouldn’t be posting here to begin with, hence why when there was a Flame Wars thread still around things were at least somewhat more controlled. If BOT is content on providing material to incels to make threads about us talking here, if that’s the current state of BOT, I’d wager all of us have better use of our time than keyboard warrioring here. This would be fair if this was the case on the several different film threads here. It isn’t. It’s not okay to mock fans of any franchises or films in my book, but I think the question here shouldn’t be why MCU fans don’t post here more often, but why people that clearly hate and mock those who actually enjoy these films get so much free reign to begin with. Good and underrated post.

When BOT’s moderation does its damn hardest to make this message board an unwelcoming place to MCU fans, it’s no wonder that people will end up talking about the film and its box office numbers somewhere else. When even people that are long time posters here are treated like absolute shit, what is the hope for a new MCU fan browsing around here? The answer that BOT through its moderation team is sending to people interested in this film is loud and clear: don’t even bother post here, because it’s just some thinly veiled franchise wars shit next to another. It’s on the title, after all: abandon all hope ye who enter. It’s a playground, but not for those actually interested in the film. At all. And I ask, for what? For ‘new’ users like this which was rightfully pointed out days ago? Or to become a mockery on some incel website with posts clearly made by someone that clearlu is an active poster here? https://rdrama.net/h/kino/post/214604/neurodivergent-long-effortpost-i-dont-think?sort=new The MCU is likely not going away in our lifetimes. Neither the MCU fans. Just like the Star Wars fans before them. What is a shame is how this small community has deteriorated itself, it used to be a cool place. But clearly, if people don’t feel welcome here, they will find somewhere else where they can have a civil conversation without people constantly poisoning the well. Anyway, back to Marvel’s Spider-Man 2 and pizza.

@SpiderByte homie, do you use Twitter? I don’t know how to dm it here but if you do have one and want still keep in touch, give me a follow there, it’s the same username as here. Same to you, @Arlborn.

Hence why I’ve said that it doesn’t matter. Clearly, you have your biases and I have mine, just like these new users have. I still insist that data isn’t debatable. Hard numbers aren’t debatable. Being passionate about box office comes for a place of love for film, and yeah, I do love the MCU. Just like a lot of folks love Cameron’s Avatar, Star Wars, DC films, etc. Pointing out that this isn’t new isn’t a fight for me, I do it because discussing about box office can be maddening some times with different people making the same arguments over and over only to the numbers to prove them wrong again. No one should expect that after Endgame, every MCU film would only go up from that point forward, and I mean that even with no covid in the picture. If our ‘discussions’ will be silly petty fights with you or any other attacking me for providing evidence that an old argument can easily be debunked, that’s a silly debate that I have no interest to have. I stick around despite finding a lot of the silly discussions just shallow, there is still glimpses of brilliance on this place. I had great convos about box office here about films I love, and I do think it’s important to set some basic common sense. I’ve been on the wrong side of arguments about historical numbers before, mind you. I didn’t believe that Avatar 2 could get as high as it did, despite not topping A1. I learned to never doubt Cameron’s Avarar ever again, that’s development, that’s better understanding of box office in my opinion. I’m just not interested on silly bickering and people using the same arguments of one decade ago about a decline that never comes. If Deadpool 3 doesn’t blow up and the Avengers films crash and burn by all means, claim the Marvel’s decline. But that didn’t happen, despite people hating or loving the MCU, I do think that understanding how big of a franchise the MCU, Avatar or Star Wars are is important when we are seriously discussing box office. I’m not interested on mocking you or anyone here for being interested at the box office run of any franchise, I’m being a fan of them or not. If you think that’s what you want from this message board then cool, but clearly you and I won’t get along well.

Discussing box office is what we do here. It’s not a fight to point out silly and easily to debunk rhetorics. We keep seeing people repeating about how "Marvel’s decline" started after Avengers: Endgame, but people claiming this didn’t start before that film. Everyone can love or hate whatever they want, but claiming that the "Marvel’s decline" started after Endgame if we’ve been arguing about a “Marvel’s decline" even two years Endgame became the biggest film in the world, it’s relevant to point out that this isn’t a new argument. You can hate the MCU. You just can’t claim that it’s "on a decline", when films have been behaving with peaks and valleys and people claiming its demise since the beginning of the franchise.

It’s a stupid rhetoric and easy to debunk for those who have been around here long enough. Nice posts on that club there, btw. And what can I say? I just love being right, especially when it’s about box office of a franchise I care about.

Back on 5th of June of 2017 people were already claiming that the sky was falling for the MCU. I’m merely pointing it out that users like @Liiviig 1998 and @boxoff53 albeit newer to this message board, didn’t invent the "MCU’s decline". This rhetoric hasn’t started after Avengers: Endgame, and it will never go away, regardless how silly it is. grey ghost is an old timer like myself and a MCU fan, he was just trying to point out that "Avengers 3" would do well at a box office. A lot of gems can be found on this club, but this is just one example of many, many others. It’s Groundhog Day, and we’ve been dancing this dance literally since 2012’s The Avengers. Exact the same for "superhero fatigue". @grey ghost

I can literally do this all day, yes. Because it’s bullshit, and easily proven by those actually looking at the data: I literally just bookmarked this graphic because here shows how much full of fallacies and holes your both arguments are. The MCU has always been made of peaks and valleys. This domestic graphic shows how much every single made at the domestic box office, from Iron Man (2008) to Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 3 (2023). Notice how many years it went by between The Avengers (2012) until Black Panther (2018) and Avengers: Infinity War (2018): it took Marvel Studios 5 years to the MCU to top The Avengers at the domestic box office market. Was all the films at ‘ the valley’ phase (2013-2017) a signal that Marvel Studios was "in decline" back then as well? Because trust me, this same "decline" talks aren’t nothing new, they were very much present since at very least Age of Ultron, if not earlier. I vividly remember people on this very forum with similar bold claims, saying that the MCU would never surpass The Avengers after Age of Ultron didn’t top that film back in 2015, and yet here we are today, having once again a discussion about the "MCU’s decline". It’s funny because ten years from now, after Secret Wars and god knows what else blows up, literally the same talks about decline are going to be made, when in fact what ‘declined’ and ‘died’ was what once it was the DC Extended Universe, now renamed DC Cinematic Universe. There will always be peaks. There will always be valleys. Call me when a MCU film take more than 4 years between each other to surpass $600m domestic.

How can you say that they failed get people invested if less than two years ago a film set in the MCU made $1.9B without a single cent from China? The MCU would never become bigger and bigger after Endgame, it would go back to the same pattern from before: huge blockbusters throughout the years with a breakout every three to four years. Here is an example of this pattern: Endgame (2019), No Way Home (2021). The next MCU film to break out is likely Deadpool 3 (2024), but it doesn’t mean that the other films didn’t do well at the box office either.

What do you think Secret Wars is about? Why we are having all this talk about ‘multiversal war’ and what not with Loki? You don’t get three Spider-Men without the multiverse aspect of it. Also, now Doctor Strange is bad because of its multiplier? Both films did what it did without China. Something that you surely know that BvS did have. I can twist numbers to look better than they actually are too, just like you are going out of your way to try alternative facts and will into existence a distaste to Marvel’s multiverse stories when reality points otherwise. Yes, a film featuring multiverses bombed, but that was The Flash, not No Way Home or Multiverse of Madness. What you are doing now is no different than the bullshit discourse that DCEU diehards would make back in the day saying that BvS was in fact a success, it’s mental gymnastics rhetoric that just makes for petty arguments. The numbers for No Way Home are astronomical, that’s precisely what Marvel Studios is angling with Secret Wars, but on steroids.