Alien: Covenant | 5/19/2017 | Who needs mystery?

[Penelope Quail]

Actually it isn't absurd. Unless you call people in real life who take wrong turns or don't ask for directions "absurd"

Fifield's initial reaction to Shaw may have been absured, but hardly unrealistic.

I've seen enough things living in the city that these kinds of behaviors are tame and such personalities even commonplace.

Edited March 1, 2013 by space biscuit

[Dementeleus]

Actually it isn't absurd. Unless you call people in real life who take wrong turns or don't ask for directions "absurd"

Fifield's initial reaction to Shaw may have been absured, but hardly unrealistic.

I've seen enough things living in the city that these kinds of behaviors are tame and such personalities even commonplace.

 

It's absurd for a couple of reasons: first, from a character standpoint, they don't set up the personality for such decisions. Second, they don't really set up it well, they sort of conveniently skip past it so they can have 'em trapped. It's a legitimate beat *if* they took the time to fully establish how and why it would happen. Instead, it's basically the result a cheap slasher film takes when it needs to kill off a couple stupid people.

[Dementeleus]

Oddy appropriate: 

 

 

  GavRov
I am currently drunk in a pub having a bit of a time with a Prometheus apologist. Rally round me!
3/1/13 1:29 PM

 

[Penelope Quail]

It's absurd for a couple of reasons: first, from a character standpoint, they don't set up the personality for such decisions. Second, they don't really set up it well, they sort of conveniently skip past it so they can have 'em trapped. It's a legitimate beat *if* they took the time to fully establish how and why it would happen. Instead, it's basically the result a cheap slasher film takes when it needs to kill off a couple stupid people.

 

They don't need to. People are spontaneous and have unpredictable reactions based on things we are unaware of. We're not watching Resident Evil with stock cardboard clone scientists. Ridley gave us actual characters with personalities, and guess what. People in real life are actual characters.

 

So incorrect.

 

If we met in real life you'd probably call me "unrealistic" haha

consistency = shallow, no depth, cardboard cut out, boring, one layered

Edited March 1, 2013 by space biscuit

[Dementeleus]

They don't need to. People are spontaneous and have unpredictable reactions based on things we are unaware of. We're not watching Resident Evil with stock cardboard clone scientists. Ridley gave us actual characters with personalities, and guess what. People in real life are actual characters.

 

At that point, yeah, we basically are. These aren't nuanced, fully fleshed out characters. They're not even solid supporting characters. They're one-dimensional, cardboard quasi-extras with one or two schticks to distinguish them. Your "real life" comment is not only wrong, it's a moot point. A movie does not give you "real life", it gives you a heightened, condensed, focused slice of life-like moments. 

 

There are two really good and interesting characters in PROMETHEUS -- David and Elizabeth Shaw. Vickers is intriguing in many ways but not really at the level of the others, as is Janek. The others are more or less disposable red-shirts.

 

Really, you can like a movie and not defend every single choice that goes into it, you know.

[RichWS]

Really, you can like a movie and not defend every single choice that goes into it, you know.

 

THIS.

[Penelope Quail]

Millburn and Fifield were supporting secondary characters. Even so, we know more about them then any of the marines in Aliens and most of the Nastromo crew. They served their purpose and we learned what we needed to know about the.

Also my comment about real life is clearly correct to anyone who spends time observing others in mass. This movie gave us characters as real life has characters. Intristingly most of the people who attack characters like Millburn and Fifield essentially have personalities themselves like these characters.

 

David, Elizabeth Shaw, and Weyalnd are the three most interesting characters imo. I actually find Weyland more interesting than David as a character, granted I really like David as well. Janek, Millburn, and Fifield were also pretty interesting. I wouldn't call them redshirts though as they had some development and had decent roles. Ford and her boyfriend Mercenary Jackson on the other hand I would call redshirt.

Edited March 1, 2013 by space biscuit

[Penelope Quail]

Really, you can like a movie and not defend every single choice that goes into it, you know.

Which I don't.

I've attacked Scott numerous times as a director for what he cuts and leaves out of his films. Certain choises of takes and even designs.

I find his opinion that Shaw's 6 minute axe fight needed to be cut for pacing laughable as it makes the theatrical cut anticlimactic. Noomi even seemed dissapointed in two interviews saying "maybe in the extended edition", along with Fassbender about certain removed sequences.  The first cut of the film was an hour longer btw.

 

I am still quite frustrated at Ridley for not filming the true ending to Blade Runner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CkiDuHrxsM

Edited March 1, 2013 by space biscuit

[Dementeleus]

Which I don't.

I've attacked Scott numerous times as a director for what he cuts and leaves out of his films. Certain choises of takes and even designs.

I find his opinion that Shaw's 6 minute axe fight needed to be cut for pacing laughable as it makes the theatrical cut anticlimactic. Noomi even seemed dissapointed in two interviews saying "maybe in the extended edition", along with Fassbender about certain removed sequences.  The first cut of the film was an hour longer btw.

 

That six-min fight seems pointless to me. I thought cutting it was the right decision on several levels. The last thing the movie needs is another action scene at that point. I'd certainly be interested in seeing the much-longer rough cut to see if it addressed any of my serious issues with the movie: largely character motivation pieces happening post-surgery. 

 

The problem with these earlier bits with the various scientists is not that the characters acted arbitrarily or even "wrongly" or that they made poor choices, it's that the movie never bothered to properly set up the reasons and motivations FOR these choices. So you have the two guys lost suddenly and randomly and conveniently in the tunnel. You have the biologist (of all people!) treating a potentially hazardous first-contact situation like rescuing a kitten. You have Charlie Holloway suddenly in a fit of gloom that the Engineers are long dead and gone when in fact he's sitting on one of the most extraordinary and amazing discoveries in the history of mankind. None of these are necessarily terrible cinematic choices in and of themselves, but taken without context or explanation, and skipped past without further issues, they become hackneyed, lazy, silly moments instead of (potentially) far more interesting and thoughtful choices.

 

I don't think Ridley Scott is stupid, I think what all this essentially shows is that he was far more interested in the weightier questions and technical creation of other worlds than setting up nuanced, meaningful characters.

[junkshop36]

I enjoyed Promethious, for the most part. Mainly because I think the overall story idea is very interesting and I do want to see where Scott takes it. However, he's f'ing to need to do a better with he execution of the movie. First, the editing was bad; especially in the later part. You could tell that they just went, "Ok, time to get this over with!" And started chillin the shit out of it. There were two deleted scenes on the blu-ray that they should have left in. One was when they first awake the Engineer. The deleted scene has him actually speaking a couple of lines to Weyland before he goes all crazy on their asses. Should have just left it in. The second is after Shaw gets to the life pod and David tells her that the engineer is coming. The deleted part has her picking up the ax and hiding behind the bar. The engineer comes in, looks around and hears her make a small noise. He looks over the bar and they go at it. She hits a couple of times with the ax and makes her way into that little hallway and that's where it picks up with what actually happened I the theatrical cut. I felt like they should have left those parts in. And I'm sorry, but the two scientists getting lost was just out rite dumb. It was done so they could be the first to get killed because they new it was time for some bad shit to start happening to the characters. The mapping balls had mapped out the entire section that they had been walking through; from where they entered all the way up to and around the spot where they found all the dead engineers. Janik had them on the hologram in front of him and he could hear everything they were saying. He knew they were leaving. As soon as they made a wrong turn all he had to do was say something. Like I said, it was an obvious ploy to get them alone and it was a dumb one. One thing I found on the extra features that I thought was interesting and should have been touched upon in the movie was an entry in the Weyland files section. He mentions having an interest in going to LV-426 because of a faint signal that his scientists have detected coming from that particular planet.

[Penelope Quail]

That six-min fight seems pointless to me. I thought cutting it was the right decision on several levels.

Have you seen the axe sequence?

It's the best part imo

 

It is not an "action scene".  It shows the nature of the Engineer and is dreamlike in its beauty.

The actual fight is more of a hiding and escape cat and mouse type thing. It's a shame it was cut.

 

It also benifits from Weyland's speech to the Engineer, and his response. Brilliantly done.

 

The main reason though was because of the evil Tom Rothsman wanting it no more than 2 hours for more showings.

He is no longer with Fox though.

Edited March 1, 2013 by space biscuit

[Penelope Quail]

The problem with these earlier bits with the various scientists is not that the characters acted arbitrarily or even "wrongly" or that they made poor choices, it's that the movie never bothered to properly set up the reasons and motivations FOR these choices. So you have the two guys lost suddenly and randomly and conveniently in the tunnel. You have the biologist (of all people!) treating a potentially hazardous first-contact situation like rescuing a kitten. You have Charlie Holloway suddenly in a fit of gloom that the Engineers are long dead and gone when in fact he's sitting on one of the most extraordinary and amazing discoveries in the history of mankind. None of these are necessarily terrible cinematic choices in and of themselves, but taken without context or explanation, and skipped past without further issues, they become hackneyed, lazy, silly moments instead of (potentially) far more interesting and thoughtful choices.

Actually it was set up in the earlier portions of the film.

Not that you need to as we find out their personas through their actions.

 

Typical biologist behavior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndgYpRGqgUI

 

He would be Stupid to let such a find escape. Especially when he captures one with ease earlier and they congradulate him on being the first human in histroy to obtain an Alien lifeform. Also note that the creature has no teeth or anything.

Hmm, capture creature of a life time, become a trillionare, obtain your obsession --- or go to sleep and be attacked?

 

Also he is in a protective suit with Gorrilla glass. We have biologists doing this in real life with the most deadliest snakes with zero protection.

 

Prometheus is about our hubris and going for the forbidden knowlege. Such as the inviting "snake" tempts Millburn while in the holy chamber.

Edited March 1, 2013 by space biscuit

[RichWS]

Wow, this is getting intense. 

[Dementeleus]

Also this is typical biologist behavior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndgYpRGqgUI

 

He would be Stupid to let such a find escape. Especially when he captures one with ease earlier and they congradulate him on being the first human in histroy to obtain an Alien lifeform. Also note that the creature has no teeth or anything.

Hmm, capture creature of a life time, become a trillionare, obtain your obsession --- or go to sleep and be attacked?

Sometimes people need to Think

 

There's actually a YouTube video defending this? Oh the hilarity!

 

First, there's absolutely nothing in the personality of Millburn to set up this is how he acts (nor do all biologists act like). Secondly, there's a HUGE difference between examining a creature you know intimately and want to see more of -- in an environment you're somewhat familiar with -- than being in a highly hostile, unknown environment WHERE YOU'VE ALREADY GOTTEN LOST AND ARE A BIT WORRIED ABOUT THE SITUATION.

 

Again, I don't consider this a huge major issue. But the continual and passionate defense of something so silly is really, really funny.

[Dementeleus]

The main reason though was because of the evil Tom Rothsman wanting it no more than 2 hours for more showings.

He is no longer with Fox though.

 

Geeks continually blame Rothman for any number of things. It's old, tired, and most of the time exaggerated or flat-out wrong.

 

The creative power behind PROMETHEUS begins and ends with Ridley Scott. Credit him for any of its successes, and blame him for any of its flaws. Such is the nature of the beast when you're an A-list director with major clout.

[Penelope Quail]

There's actually a YouTube video defending this? Oh the hilarity!

 

First, there's absolutely nothing in the personality of Millburn to set up this is how he acts (nor do all biologists act like). Secondly, there's a HUGE difference between examining a creature you know intimately and want to see more of -- in an environment you're somewhat familiar with -- than being in a highly hostile, unknown environment WHERE YOU'VE ALREADY GOTTEN LOST AND ARE A BIT WORRIED ABOUT THE SITUATION.

 

Again, I don't consider this a huge major issue. But the continual and passionate defense of something so silly is really, really funny.

 

Um yes there is. Millburn is shown as a nerdy guy and obsesses earlier when finding the alien in the black sludge near the giant hole. And it's not a defence. Simply something to alleviate haters of the ignorance they have grown so attached to.

 

Also how do you think all of these snakes were classified? People went out and did studies on them. Many getting hurt in the field as well. Many even called Jane Goodall reckless.

 

Keep in mind Millburn has a protective suit so all of those guys in the video are in more seemily dangerous situations.

 

You're seriously deluding yourself if you think someone who has passion about something would allow such a once and a lifetime thing escape. It would be foolist as well as it could actually attack you in your sleep as oppose to capturing it from the get go.

 

Oh my the desperation of haters

try applying that anal analyzing that isn't even correct for minutiae about your own favourite films.

 

LOL

Edited March 1, 2013 by space biscuit

[Dementeleus]

Um yes there is. Millburn is shown as a nerdy guy and obsesses earlier when finding the Alien. And it's not a defence.

Simply something to alleviate haters of the ignorance they have grown so attached to.

 

Also how do you think all of these snakes were classified? People went out and did studies on them. Many getting hurt in the field as well. Many even called Jane Goodall reckless.

 

Keep in mind Millburn has a protective suit so all of those guys in the video are in more seemily dangerous situations.

 

You're seriously deluding yourself if you think someone who has passion about something would allow such a once and a lifetime thing escape. It would be foolist as well as it could actually attack you in your sleep as oppose to capturing it from the get go.

 

Oh my the desperation of haters

 

You're calling me a hater when I've already said I liked the movie... and in fact if you searched back through the main PROMETHEUS threads you'd find me defending it quite a bit.

 

I'm glad those characters felt right and in-depth and wonderful for you. I'm glad you loved the movie. I'm sure you probably realize you're in the minority, but that's fine, we all have our blind spots. In any case, I'm looking forward to PROMETHEUS 2 and the further adventures of David & Shaw.

[RichWS]

That'll do Tele, that'll do.

[junkshop36]

Have you seen the axe sequence?It's the best part imo It is not an "action scene".  It shows the nature of the Engineer and is dreamlike in its beauty.The actual fight is more of a hiding and escape cat and mouse type thing. It's a shame it was cut. It also benifits from Weyland's speech to the Engineer, and his response. Brilliantly done. The main reason though was because of the evil Tom Rothsman wanting it no more than 2 hours for more showings.He is no longer with Fox though.

I agree with you about that fight sequence. It was pretty good and should have been left in.

[Penelope Quail]