Game of Thrones (BOOK + TV) WARNING: SPOILERS [NO LEAKED EPISODE SPOILERS]

[boomboom234]

At this point GRRM is an idiot why sign off on the show if your not going to be able to finish the books in time. Fuck the "george RR martin is not our bitch people" he committed to a story if he lets a tv show spoil its ending for him he is actually the least organized person in the world and pretty stupid. Jk Rowling churned out 800 page behemoths every other year, Stephen King is a walking library, even fucking Shakespeare managed to write a several plays a year there are no excuses for this, it is not the end of the world but it is pretty stupid and frustrating to reach this point

Edited June 11, 2014 by The Sun's Son

[Spidey Freak]

At this point GRRM is an idiot why sign off on the show if your not going to be able to finish the books in time. Fuck the "george RR martin is not our bitch people" he committed to a story if he lets a tv show spoil its ending for him he is actually the least organized person in the world and pretty stupid. Jk Rowling churned out 800 page behemoths every other year, Stephen King is a walking library, even fucking Shakespeare managed to write a several plays a year there are no excuses for this

 

[cozmeesah]

Seriously. Calm down. It's a TV show and books. Not the end of the world.

[Magic]

Martin is taking too long to complete the series. He took 11 years to write the last two books. It's been nearly three years since then and there is no release date in sight for TWoW. His editor said he had only submitted about 180 pages and that was back in February. He had written a bit more than that apparently but it has yet to be submitted. These are 1000+ page books and as of 4 months ago he hasn't submitted even a fifth of that. Seems like there's no way it's coming until 2016 at least. He still doesn't know if he will add an eighth book. He continues to leave the door open for more. From what I've gathered he keeps hoping D&D will drag the series out by adapting the next two books over three seasons or maybe movies or whatever and they aren't doing that. They said seven seasons and have left the door open for an eighth which will probably happen. I highly doubt they will string it out further than that. What D&D have said regarding the shows timeline and what Martin has said don't match up. It's like he's been in denial. He needs to stop pissing around and finish the books. Even if he sticks with seven, which is somewhat doubtful, it will be at least 2020 before they are done. That's if he lives that long.With the huge head start he has had on the series its ludicrous that D&D should be in this position. Yes, they sat down with him and have roughly gone through each character and their fates, but they are doing an adaptation on a series of books and soon they won't have any books to adapt.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Magic

[boomboom234]

Seriously. Calm down. It's a TV show and books. Not the end of the world.

I'm not that angry just coming to a realization and becoming a bit frustrated martin created something that I greatly enjoy but his inability to write in a timely manner is about to ruin it 

[4815162342]

 

Take this with a grain of salt:

 

An insider source said the following major characters have been either cut or merged:

 

1)Arianne (merged with sand snakes)

2)Wyman (merged with umbers, no north remembers, no frey pies, no "perhaps tis was a blessing speech") Umbers will instead oppose bolton because they killed greatjon, not of loyalty to the starks.

3)Euron, victarion and Aeron merged into Euron

4)Stannis will not heed jon's advice and will attack the dreadfort, his forces will be slaughtered and the remaining will take shelter near winterfell "crofters village")

5) No barbara dustin, Alys karstark or Bowen, Jon will be betrayed by thorne.

 

As I said take this with a grain of salt although the same source told alot of accurate predictions for season 3 and 4 and it turned out true so far.

 

 

I saw this on the westeros forum if 12,3,or 4 are true I might just stop watching

 

 

And the consensus on the forum is that while some of them are possible, the entire list offered is bunk because a couple of the things are just too stupid and unlikely (like the Stannis one and merging all 3 Greyjoys into 1).

 

Also completly cutting all Manderly aspects is dumb and unlikely.

 

All the other rumors and conjecture at least had actual evidence as a foundation (leaked audition tapes). This is just one guy claiming some anonymous insider told him things and compiling a list of the things that would piss off readers the most.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Numbers the One True King

[4815162342]

Also, the way I see it, the more D&D diverge compared to how long Martin takes, the more likely Martin might end up changing some significant details to be different from the show, as a way to put egg on D&D's faces for some of their decisions.

 

Like for example, if they cut Arianne for some really stupid reason (she's the fucking Dornish protagonist!), Martin may end up bolstering her importance in Books 6 and/or 7 even more in retaliation.

[Spidey Freak]

Also, the way I see it, the more D&D diverge compared to how long Martin takes, the more likely Martin might end up changing some significant details to be different from the show, as a way to put egg on D&D's faces for some of their decisions.

 

Like for example, if they cut Arianne for some really stupid reason (she's the fucking Dornish protagonist!), Martin may end up bolstering her importance in Books 6 and/or 7 even more in retaliation.

 

Every aspect of Arianne's role in the books can be replaced by the Sand Snakes except for the Dornish heiress angle. That's the only reason I hope she isn't cut from the show. It wouldn't be all gloom and doom if she is indeed cut though. Maybe they will introduce a sub-plot with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes scheming to overthrow Doran and his line of male heirs from the throne or something instead. D&D have been more than reasonably faithful to the books as it is. They are allowed a little leeway by now.

[4815162342]

Every aspect of Arianne's role in the books can be replaced by the Sand Snakes except for the Dornish heiress angle. That's the only reason I hope she isn't cut from the show. It wouldn't be all gloom and doom if she is indeed cut though. Maybe they will introduce a sub-plot with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes scheming to overthrow Doran and his line of male heirs from the throne or something instead. D&D have been more than reasonably faithful to the books as it is. They are allowed a little leeway by now.

 

And the Dornish heiress angle is by the most important facet of her character, because it's why she is going to meet Aegon in the 6th book and the presumption amongst readers is that she will bring Dorne to his side and potentially go for a marriage with him.

 

Splitting Arianne amongst the 3 major Sand Snakes removes the most fleshed-out and interesting Dornish characters in favor of 3 caricatures.

 

As for Ellaria, having her conspire with the Sand Snakes would be a complete 180 from her character in the Books, when she straight-out berates the Sand Snakes for their conspiracies, violence, and belligerence.

[Spidey Freak]

And the Dornish heiress angle is by the most important facet of her character, because it's why she is going to meet Aegon in the 6th book and the presumption amongst readers is that she will bring Dorne to his side and potentially go for a marriage with him.

 

Splitting Arianne amongst the 3 major Sand Snakes removes the most fleshed-out and interesting Dornish characters in favor of 3 caricatures.

 

As for Ellaria, having her conspire with the Sand Snakes would be a complete 180 from her character in the Books, when she straight-out berates the Sand Snakes for their conspiracies, violence, and belligerence.

 

The Dornish heiress angle is the most important facet to HER character but the most important facet for her in the series is the scheming to get Myrcella on the throne subplot. Ellaria or one or many of the Sand Snakes can be good substitutes there. Also, the Sand Sands or Ellaria could send her daughter Elia Sand to seduce Aegon. Who knows, maybe the Sand Snakes manage to overthrow Doran on the show and start running the show from that point on? It would make Dorne unique as it would be the only kingdom run mostly by women and whose major generals, ministers and ambassadors are also women.

 

Characters are changed with every adaptation. That or Ellaria doesn't even have to be willing to follow along with the plan. It could be that her daughter Elia is a renegade and aids her older half-sisters in their mission anyway. Oberyn already mentioned her to be very "difficult".

Edited June 11, 2014 by Spidey Freak of Highgarden

[4815162342]

The Dornish heiress angle is the most important facet to HER character but the most important facet for her in the series is the scheming to get Myrcella on the throne subplot. Ellaria or one or many of the Sand Snakes can be good substitutes there. Also, the Sand Sands or Ellaria could send her daughter Elia Sand to seduce Aegon. Who knows, maybe the Sand Snakes manage to overthrow Doran on the show and start running the show from that point on? It would make Dorne unique as it would be the only kingdom run mostly by women and whose major generals, ministers and ambassadors are also women.

 

Characters are changed with every adaptation. That or Ellaria doesn't even have to be willing to follow along with her plan. It could be that her daughter Elia is a renegade and aids her older half-sisters in their mission anyway. Oberyn already mentioned her to be very "difficult".

 

Only so far. In fact the most important result of that so far is convincing Doran he needs to bring her into his plans, which lead into Book 6 and her being sent as envoy to Aegon. Anything she does with Aegon will be far more important than the Queenmaker plotline.

 

Diversions are fine. Whole-sale dismemberment, rearrangement, and alterations that completely change character arcs and motivations are not fine. Of course, not even D&D would go so far as to have a Sand Snake successful coup like you suggest.

 

Also, none of the Sand Snakes are a good substitute for Arianne negotiating with Aegon. Arianne is Doran's heir, she has the power to bring Dorne to Aegon's side via a political alliance AND a marriage alliance. Sending a Sand Snake to do that work carries far less weight and actually would likely be treated as an insult by Jon Connington (as bastards are treated far poorer outside Dorne). Likewise, there's no way you'll get a Sand Snake seduction/marriage of Aegon because it's a relationship that has far less value and worth (plus Jon Con would be sure to cockblock it as much as possible).

[Spidey Freak]

Only so far. In fact the most important result of that so far is convincing Doran he needs to bring her into his plans, which lead into Book 6 and her being sent as envoy to Aegon. Anything she does with Aegon will be far more important than the Queenmaker plotline.

 

Diversions are fine. Whole-sale dismemberment, rearrangement, and alterations that completely change character arcs and motivations are not fine. Of course, not even D&D would go so far as to have a Sand Snake successful coup like you suggest.

 

Also, none of the Sand Snakes are a good substitute for Arianne negotiating with Aegon. Arianne is Doran's heir, she has the power to bring Dorne to Aegon's side via a political alliance AND a marriage alliance. Sending a Sand Snake to do that work carries far less weight and actually would likely be treated as an insult by Jon Connington (as bastards are treated far poorer outside Dorne). Likewise, there's no way you'll get a Sand Snake seduction/marriage of Aegon because it's a relationship that has far less value and worth (plus Jon Con would be sure to cockblock it as much as possible).

 

We don't know what happens with Aegon though. Also, a successful coup by the bastard women changes the game entirely. If the Sand Snakes make their own hierarchy and rules in and for Dorne, then Elia Sand or any other of their sisters becomes a legit bargaining chip for acquiring Dornish support. It's just a theoretical possibility that I'd be okay with if executed well.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Spidey Freak of Highgarden

[4815162342]

We don't know what happens with Aegon though. Also, a successful coup by the bastard women changes the game entirely. If the Sand Snakes make their own hierarchy and rules in and for Dorne, then Elia Sand or any other of their sisters becomes a legit bargaining chip for acquiring Dornish support. It's just a theoretical possibility that I'd be okay with if executed well.

 

Completely changing the Dornish narrative in that bizarre a fashion is far more convoluted and wasteful than simply using the actual literary character, who has a compelling character arc and narrative already in place. It's incredibly wasteful from both a story and character standpoint.

 

 

We're clearly at far different ends of the spectrum concerning Dorne, so I'm leaving it at that.

[Cmasterclay]

Here's the thing- the number of characters in the show is already exorbitant and all consuming, especially for non-readers. There's barely enough time as there is. Adding in multiple major characters from completely new storylines just doesn't translate as well on screen as off. People care about Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, Cersei, Jamie, Littlefinger, Varys, Sansa, Stannis, Davos, Jorah, the Hound, Ramsay/Theon, and heck, even Bran. That's the characters that people have followed and fallen in love with over years of watching and reading. The Dornish and Ironborn subplots being introduced just aren't as captivating, especially for unsullied. The first three books are some of the greatest of all-time, but GRRM's problem isn't that he writes too slow- it's that his fourth and fifth books concentrated so largely on subplots and characters that we have no reason to give a fuck about. It'd be like following Harry Potter through the Goblet of Fire, and then the fifth and sixth books spending most of their time on the inner political workings of Hufflepuff. I know y'all will disagree with this, but anything done to streamline and add excitement from those two books, the better. 

[Spidey Freak]

I'd add Margaery, Sam and Brienne to your list too, Cmaster. Also, I'd have loved to read the adventures of Hannah Abbot, voted leader of Dumbledore's Army when the main trio were Horcrux hunting outside Hogwarts. :DBTW, this is still just the halfway point for GoT. The older Starks have been decimated, King's Landing storyline will reduce to Cersei vs. Margaery, Bran will get less screen time and Stannis plotline will merge with The Wall for a bit. Opens up some space for new storylines.

[Cmasterclay]

Oh, duh! Yes, those three absolutely, especially Sam and Brienne.

 

I realize this, and I realize that this isn't a traditional series with the same protagonists and antagonists. At the same time, there has been a massive buildup of this character selection, and those are the storylines people can really connect to. Adding a character or two a season, like Oberyn or the Queen of Thorns, has been brilliantly effective because how well they mesh with other storylines, but creating entirely new subplots that are independent of everything we've seen so far makes it a bit dry. That said, if Jamie and Bronn are really going to Dorne, that's something that can help make things alot more interesting. 

[Spidey Freak]

Yeah, Bronn and Jaime are kinda wasted in the latter books, so to see them interact with the brand new Dornish characters is two birds, one stone if handled well.

[4815162342]

It'd be like following Harry Potter through the Goblet of Fire, and then the fifth and sixth books spending most of their time on the inner political workings of Hufflepuff. I know y'all will disagree with this, but anything done to streamline and add excitement from those two books, the better. 

 

That's an absurd straw man. The Harry Potter series, aside from the opening chapters of most of its books, exclusively followed a single person's point of view, with the occasional Pensieve flashback. Obviously it would be jarring to suddenly devote half of a book to a Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff we only knew a bit about.

 

But Game of Thrones has been established as an expansive story about a whole world, and as the story expands to cover the growth of the wars and politics and magic and fantasy, the POVs have to necessarily expand as well. Theoretically we could have had everything in Dorne and the Iron Islands happen off-page, but then imagine how readers would feel when without warning, early in Book 6 Victarion shows up, uses the dragon horn to steal a dragon, which ends up in the hands of Euron and he proceeds to start sacking the Reach. Readers would be up in arms about that happening with no buildup.

[4815162342]

His editor said he had only submitted about 180 pages and that was back in February. He had written a bit more than that apparently but it has yet to be submitted. These are 1000+ page books and as of 4 months ago he hasn't submitted even a fifth of that.

 

Actually that was 168 pages submitted in February 2013, as part of a contractual agreement to ensure he was paid.

[Magic]

Actually that was 168 pages submitted in February 2013, as part of a contractual agreement to ensure he was paid.

Ah, that makes more sense.I was thinking that was damn slow, even for Martin.