In the reboot of Thor, Thor will be a woman!

[Mulder]

Always funny to see people decry changes to characters, after having seeing them praising other character deviations.

 

By the way.

 

 

 

What were the last DC and Marvel comics you actually read?

 

 

This is all but guaranteed to increase sales. Whether it maintains new readership depends on what whether people like what they read.

That's an alternate universe Superman though.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

big fan of Superman, Bats, WW, FF4,  Spidey, Hulk, Wolverine, Uncanny Xmen and more

 

Which comics specifically? What issues?

 

Just naming titles and heroes aren't going to cut it, when some of those heroes have two or more titles.

 

dc and marvel stories between 1988-2004-2006era

 

So basically after both companies (especially DC) had characters undergo drastic changes.

 

And here you are complaining about changes to characters.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

That's an alternate universe Superman though.

 

Yep, but still a Superman.

 

Now keep in mind that I'm responding to guy that has said he would boycott comic book movies (alternate versions of characters) if they made such changes to characters.

[Kalel009Shel]

Yep, but still a Superman.

 

Now keep in mind that I'm responding to guy that has said he would boycott comic book movies (alternate versions of characters) if they made such changes to characters.

Alternate universe Superman being black is fine with me, but not my Clark Kent of the main continuity..

 Same with me and  hundreds of thousands of people quitting spiderman comics after he asked the devil to reverse 20+ yrs

of epic story-telling.. Maybe your okay with those major changes to mega heroes that used to stand for something.

 

 But most of the comic world arent, hence why both Marvel and DC sales are going down down comic wise and people picking up

Paperbacks of the old stories Like Death m Worldwithout and the Return of Superman... Fantastic Form vs doom. 

 The Secret Wars,  The Spidey Clone saga..  Captain Americas Super Solider breakdown storyline.

 

etc.lol

[Kalel009Shel]

That's an alternate universe Superman though.

Cool now thats okay, Im talking about they should change up the main universe Superman so much. I mean

even the old school folks were finally happy Lois and Clark got married. Incredible stories. THen this crappy 52 thats a travesity

is making Superman and WW hookup.. WTF?? LOL

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Alternate universe Superman being black is fine with me, but not my Clark Kent of the main continuity..

 

After Flashpoint had rebooted the Universe, why would it have mattered if the Nu52 Superman was black or not?

 

Same with me and  hundreds of thousands of people quitting spiderman comics after he asked the devil to reverse 20+ yrs

of epic story-telling..

 

First off, hundreds of thousands of people didn't stop reading Spider-Man after One More Day. That's a huge exaggeration.

 

Secondly, I never said all changes were good. One More Day doesn't work on any level, things like the new Thor, new Captain America, etc, do.

 

By the way, the Peter/MJ relationship in itself was also a change in the status quo.

 

Maybe your okay with those major changes to mega heroes that used to stand for something.

 

Apparently, you are too, since you've said that your entire history of reading both companies is from 1988 onwards, after Marvel had made several changes to their characters, and DC had rebooted their Universe, doing away with decades of stories.

 

But most of the comic world arent, hence why both Marvel and DC sales are going down down comic wise and people picking up

Paperbacks of the old stories Like Death m Worldwithout and the Return of Superman... Fantastic Form vs doom. 

 The Secret Wars,  The Spidey Clone saga..  Captain Americas Super Solider breakdown storyline.

etc.lol

 

The decline in comic sales has nothing to do with changes made to characters. In fact, big character changes tend to lead to a spike in sales.

 

Case in point, Bucky's tenure as Captain America sold better on average than Steve's during Brubaker's run.

 

Sales wise, more recent stories also sell better on average that paperbacks of old stories, and it isn't even a contest when it comes to single issue vs trade paperbacks in terms of sales.

 

Go check the best selling trade paperbacks of 2014 per month, and tell me how the old classic stories ranked, and how the newer stories ranked.

 

It's also once again hilarious that you point towards stories that featured characters that had undergone huge changes (The entire Death of Superman saga), and cite The Clone Saga as an example of a classic story, when it's the second worst thing to happen to Spider-Man after One More Day.

 

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

"Most fans don't want change"

"Now look at these stories with changes that sold like crazy"

Edited August 15, 2014 by Mitsuru Kirijo

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Cool now thats okay, Im talking about they should change up the main universe Superman so much. I mean

even the old school folks were finally happy Lois and Clark got married. Incredible stories. THen this crappy 52 thats a travesity

is making Superman and WW hookup.. WTF?? LOL

 

The pre-52 Superman that you love so much is drastically different version of the character that existed before in Pre-Crisis continuity.

 

The Nu52 version is actually much truer to the character than the Post-Crisis version, but I guess you wouldn't know that, since the version that you're familiar with is the version that was radically changed to less like how Superman was.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Only a month to go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mulder]

Can't wait for this to end when Avengers: AoU comes out. 

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Can't wait for this to end when Avengers: AoU comes out. 

 

Because you know it sucks before you've even read it?

 

If Tom Brevoort is to be believed (not that he always is), then this will last past Age of Ultron. He's even bet people money that the new Thor will last past Age of Ultron.

 

That's probably one of the reasons why we're getting Rage of Ultron in April 2015, which seems to take place in the past and feature the older versions of the characters.

 

By the way dude, if you're going to stick with the aversion to change shtick, then you might want to ditch the Nu52 Darkseid avatar, since the way Geoff Johns wrote the character is nothing like how Kirby wrote the character. The only other writer who's been truly faithful to Kirby's Darkseid is Walter Simonson.

 

This is exactly the kind of hypocrisy that makes it hard to take complaints about "ruining" characters or comics becoming "dogshit" seriously.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Mitsuru Kirijo

[Mulder]

Darkseid is still Darkseid and hasn't been replaced by say his adopted son or some random character.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Darkseid is still Darkseid and hasn't been replaced by say his adopted son or some random character.

 

The Darkseid that appeared in the opening arc of Justice League, and the vast majority of comics that weren't by Kirby or Simonson are only Darkseid in a very superficial sense. He's Darkseid on the surface, but that's it.

 

If your understanding of Darkseid is so shallow that you base how "true" a character is on the basis of if that character is the same character in terms of continuity, then sure "Darkseid" is still Darkseid, but that doesn't change the fact that character is written vastly different to how he was originally written.

 

If we go by your standards, then "Captain America" would still be Captain America, if Steve Rogers were written as a homicidal jingoistic madman, and "Reed Richards" would still be Reed Richards if he were written as an anti-intellectual rapist that targeted scientists, and this would be acceptable by your standard of staying true to the character, since it's still the same character in terms of continuity.   

 

But if that's the case, why were you taking issue with Nick Fury? After all, he's still Nick Fury, despite the retcons and occurrences in Original Sin.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Mitsuru Kirijo

[Mulder]

The Darkseid that appeared in the opening arc of Justice League, and the vast majority of comics that weren't by Kirby or Simonson are only Darkseid in a very superficial sense. He's Darkseid on the surface, but that's it.

 

If your understanding of Darkseid is so shallow that you base how "true" a character is on the basis of if that character is the same character in terms of continuity, then sure "Darkseid" is still Darkseid, but that doesn't change the fact that character is written vastly different to how he was originally written.

 

If we go by your standards, then "Captain America" would still be Captain America, if Steve Rogers were written as a homicidal jingoistic madman, and "Reed Richards" would still be Reed Richards if he were written as an anti-intellectual rapist that targeted scientists, and this would be acceptable by your standard of staying true to the character, since it's still the same character in terms of continuity.   

 

But if that's the case, why were you taking issue with Nick Fury? After all, he's still Nick Fury, despite the retcons and occurrences in Original Sin.

Most Darkseids aren't very interesting TBH. Making him a walking embodiment of death is interesting. Ruining the original Nick Fury by making him an asshole who would kill The Watcher and kick the ass of all the Avengers is complete character assassination. 

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Most Darkseids aren't very interesting TBH.

 

So now you're ok with change as long as it appeals to you? Then if you're actually open to change, why don't you actually read the upcoming comics before just dismissing them?

 

Anyway, so tell me, what exactly is that makes the Kirby/Simonson Darkseid uninteresting?

 

Making him a walking embodiment of death is interesting.

 

The Nu52 Darkseid, even as written by Johns, is a not a walking embodiment of death. The Darkseid that appeared in the opening JL arc was just just another typical brutish world conquering villain, with the exception that they took from Morrison's idea that the New Gods were Multiversal beings, not that it has any impact on his behavior.

 

Ruining the original Nick Fury by making him an asshole who would kill The Watcher

 

We do not even know if he even killed the Watcher, and even if did, we do not know why he would do such a thing.

 

and kick the ass of all the Avengers

 

Uh, not really.

 

Nick Fury's been doing morally ambiguous things since forever, doing shady things has been a large part of the character.

 

Fighting other heroes is something that people of much higher moral integrity have been willing to do, to act like Nick Fury doing it is some slight against the character is ridiculous. What's next, you're going to say Punisher getting into fights with heroes is character assassination?

 

complete character assassination. 

 

It actually isn't, but what definitely is character assassination is the Darkseid that appeared in the opening JL arc, which you're apparently fine with.

 

So, you're fine with character assassination as long as it appeals to you?

[Mulder]

So now you're ok with change as long as it appeals to you? Then if you're actually open to change, why don't you actually read the upcoming comics before just dismissing them?

 

Anyway, so tell me, what exactly is that makes the Kirby/Simonson Darkseid uninteresting?

 

 

The Nu52 Darkseid, even as written by Johns, is a not a walking embodiment of death. The Darkseid that appeared in the opening JL arc was just just another typical brutish world conquering villain, with the exception that they took from Morrison's idea that the New Gods were Multiversal beings, not that it has any impact on his behavior.

 

 

We do not even know if he even killed the Watcher, and even if did, we do not know why he would do such a thing.

 

 

Uh, not really.

 

Nick Fury's been doing morally ambiguous things since forever, doing shady things has been a large part of the character.

 

Fighting other heroes is something that people of much higher moral integrity have been willing to do, to act like Nick Fury doing it is some slight against the character is ridiculous. What's next, you're going to say Punisher getting into fights with heroes is character assassination?

 

 

It actually isn't, but what definitely is character assassination is the Darkseid that appeared in the opening JL arc, which you're apparently fine with.

 

So, you're fine with character assassination as long as it appeals to you?

Well duh. Same with you liking Fem-Thor. 

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Well duh. Same with you liking Fem-Thor. 

 

Uh, not the same thing at all, for several reasons.

 

First, I do not actually like the new Thor yet, as she hasn't even appeared yet. I'm looking forward to it, because I like the writer's previous work. Whether or not I actually end up liking the new character remains to be seen.

 

Two, there is no pretense that the new Thor is the same as the old Thor, she's a different character. Someone else wielding the hammer is not character assassination, as it was stated in Thor's first appearance that others had the capacity to wield the hammer.

 

Three, I've never been averse to change, just on the basis that something is different. You on the other hand, just listed some changes, took no account as to their execution, and criticized them and Marvel Comics.

 

So you suddenly being a fan of character changes is you being a hypocrite, while the same isn't true to me at all.

 

What you're doing is trying to act like these changes in the status quo are an indicator of quality, without them even having occurred yet. Which is why I'll ask again, why don't you actually wait and see how things turn out, before condemning them?  

Edited August 31, 2014 by Mitsuru Kirijo

[Mulder]

Because certain ideas are obviously for publicity and it's getting tiresome that this is STILL going on after so many years.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Because certain ideas are obviously for publicity and it's getting tiresome that this is STILL going on after so many years.

 

Except none of these ideas are for publicity.

 

Everything going on with Thor is what Jason Aaron has been building towards.

Everything going on with Captain America is what Rick Remender has been building towards.

Even the death of Wolverine was something that was pitched by Paul Cornell, even though Marvel picked a different writer to follow through with the story.

 

Even the Death of Captain America under Brubaker was suggested by him, not editorial. He wasn't even with the first writer to want to move away from Steve Rogers. J. M. DeMatteis wanted to kill off Steve Rogers and get a new Captain America, but his editor nixed those plans, leading him to leaving the book he had been writing for years. He went on to write the story he wanted to tell using original characters, when working for another publisher.

 

With Wolverine, he was originally supposed to die under Claremont, you know, the guy that defined the character. He was working towards making Magneto a hero, and killing off Wolverine, before he lost creative control of the books.

 

And the thing is, even if things are editorially mandated publicity stunts, that doesn't mean the stories are going to turn out bad. Simonson's introduction of Beta Ray Bill came out because of a suggestion by editorial, but he made it work. The Symbiote Saga was pitched as a publicity stunt, but today it remains one of the best Spider-Man stories. John Walker's time as Captain America was a complete publicity stunt, but it remains one of the high-points of Gruenwald's run.

 

Anyway, if you're bashing the changes to Thor and Captain America because you think they're publicity stunts, then you can stop, because they aren't.

 

Going back to Nu52 Darkseid, one could argue that the rebooting of the Post-Crisis Universe and the creation of the Nu52 was a publicity stunt. So, if you're going to bash something because it could be considered a publicity stunt, even when there's evidence to contrary, shouldn't be bashing Nu52 Darkseid, rather than using him as an avatar?

 

But see, that's not where your hypocrisy ends. You said you can't wait for this change to reverse when the movie comes out, but that means you actually want a completely business decision (matching up the comics with the movies) to dictate what happens in the comics.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Mitsuru Kirijo

[Mulder]

1. You do know that these editorial mandates are often set up in advance? Doesn't make them good with set up.

2. Frank Miller. All I'll say. Just because someone defined a character doesn't mean that they're full of good ideas.

3. They are. Everything about them is publicity stunts.

4. The artwork is cool and for an avatar that's all that matters.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

1. You do know that these editorial mandates are often set up in advance? Doesn't make them good with set up.

 

These stories are not editorially mandated. They are what the writers want to do, as stated by them.

 

2. Frank Miller. All I'll say. Just because someone defined a character doesn't mean that they're full of good ideas.

 

The point is, killing off a character isn't always a decision made as a publicity stunt. They can also be creative decisions.

 

And Frank Miller didn't define Batman, he redefined him. Bill Finger had defined Batman long before Frank Miller ever started writing comics.

 

3. They are. Everything about them is publicity stunts.

 

Prove it.

 

I've got evidence of writers stating that these are the stories they want to tell, or they were ideas pitched by writers. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

 

4. The artwork is cool and for an avatar that's all that matters.

 

You've also said that you find the Nu52 Darkseid interesting.

 

Are you now going to change your mind about that, since you're apparently now against something if it stems from a publicity stunt? Do you now have the same disdain for Nu52 Darkseid that you do for the upcoming Thor and Captain America?

 

And Mulder I'm curious, just exactly what are the Marvel stories you've enjoyed and looked fondly upon?

Edited September 1, 2014 by Mitsuru Kirijo