The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[dudalb]

7 hours ago, Brainbug said:

 

Imo, back in 2015, when a new MCU came out like 2 or 3 times a year, it always felt exciting and like something you woudnt want to miss.

 

In 2023, the MCU feels more than ever like homework. And nobody likes homework. The amount of films and shows you have to watch to catch up to the current status quo is simply absurd.

The irony, is of course, that the MCU has now become close to the actual comics..so convuluted and time demanding that is's really hard to get newcomers to watch, and hard for old timers to keep up.

The idea that the MCU's problems are only temporary and will go away is delusional. But then hard line fans are very good at deluding themselves.

Edited July 27, 2023 by dudalb

[SpiderByte]

It doesn't really seem that complicated. If people really get tired of old characters they can just introduce new ones like Shang-Chi.

 

Y'know it's funny that this thread/board is so insistent the sky is falling that when it comes out and in all likelihood, is not the total disaster some people are clearly expecting, it'll be called "overperforming". Like how for a while people were like "Guardians 3 only opening UNDER 80 MILLION?!" and that was totally wrong.

Edited July 27, 2023 by SpiderByte

[dudalb]

4 hours ago, Eric Bainbridge said:

Allow me to clarify things again. I felt, around the time Loki and Black Widow came out at the same time, that I personally felt oversaturation and exhaustion and that while it did not impact Black Widow, though I can't prove that per se, there could be a bad situation where it will impact the franchise long-term.

 

Is that all clear? Is everything understood now?

I can;t see how anybody who not a Zombie like MCU fan can deny that the Disney + Marvel shows were simply spaced too close together. People just got tired of having to commit time to watch one sereis after another with only a couple of weeks break. 

[dudalb]

1 minute ago, SpiderByte said:

It doesn't really seem that complicated. If people really get tired of old characters they can just introduce new ones like Shang-Chi.

Problem is the MCU has become so convuluted  that even the new charecters can be confusing unless you have watched all the preceding stuff.

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, dudalb said:

I can;t see how anybody who not a Zombie like MCU fan can deny that the Disney + Marvel shows were simply spaced too close together. People just got tired of having to commit time to watch one sereis after another with only a couple of weeks break. 

That argument is strong. But just like I’ve said to Eric, the argument falls apart when we look at Marvel TV’s output in 10s:

 

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (2013-2020)
Daredevil (2015-2018)

Jessica  Jones (2015-2019)

Agent Carter (2015-2016)

Luke Cage (2016-2018)

Iron Fist (2017-2018)

The Defenders (2017)

Inhumans (2017)

The Punisher(2017-2019)

Runaways (2017-2019)

Cloak & Dagger (2018-2019)

 

With a strong reminder here: Marvel Studios weren’t clear about these shows being canon or not up until Avengers: Endgame’s release and the subsequent announcements of the Disney+ tv shows. I don’t believe on superhero fatigue, but that’s a strong argument that has yet to be put into the ground. You can definitely say that it’s getting too convoluted like the comics and that’s hard to keep up, sure.
 

But we need to see things for what they are here. The argument that the tv shows diluted interest and made hard to keep up isn’t even new. It was used back then too. You can definitely call Marvel fatigue, but that the shows are having an effect on the films I’d say it’s a stretch. The biggest test for Disney+ shows isn’t even out yet. That’s The Marvels. Not Guardians Vol. 3 or any of the other films.

[SpiderByte]

9 minutes ago, dudalb said:

Problem is the MCU has become so convuluted  that even the new charecters can be confusing unless you have watched all the preceding stuff.

Not really? Everyone keeps acting like movies cant also explain anything that happened in a previous thing if necessary. But with new characters, everyone says "why should we care about someone we never met". Kamalas an example, where last year people said "uh, how are people supposed to watch this show if they don't already know her backstory?" And this year they're saying the SAME THING about her now that she's established.

 

But the fact of the matter is, they aren't gonna reboot everything every five years like DC does. There's still plenty of new characters for jumping on points to go, and they haven't even scratched the surface with all the mutants and the X-Men.

[SpiderByte]

There's simply no pleasing some people here. New characters? "Why aren't they using the old ones?" or "How are people supposed to care about someone who's never appeared before?". Old characters? "People are tired of X, why not introduce new ones?" Or "how are people supposed to catch up with old characters?"

Edited July 27, 2023 by SpiderByte

[Youngstar]

2 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

That argument is strong. But just like I’ve said to Eric, the argument falls apart when we look at Marvel TV’s output in 10s:

 

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (2013-2020)
Daredevil (2015-2018)

Jessica  Jones (2015-2019)

Agent Carter (2015-2016)

Luke Cage (2016-2018)

Iron Fist (2017-2018)

The Defenders (2017)

Inhumans (2017)

The Punisher(2017-2019)

Runaways (2017-2019)

Cloak & Dagger (2018-2019)

 

With a strong reminder here: Marvel Studios weren’t clear about these shows being canon or not up until Avengers: Endgame’s release and the subsequent announcements of the Disney+ tv shows. I don’t believe on superhero fatigue, but that’s a strong argument that has yet to be put into the ground. You can definitely say that it’s getting too convoluted like the comics and that’s hard to keep up, sure.
 

But we need to see things for what they are here. The argument that the tv shows diluted interest and made hard to keep up isn’t even new. It was used back then too. You can definitely call Marvel fatigue, but that the shows are having an effect on the films I’d say it’s a stretch. The biggest test for Disney+ shows isn’t even out yet. That’s The Marvels. Not Guardians Vol. 3 or any of the other films.

 

That's why to me it's not that different in volume, but to the average person there is a huge difference here:

 

There were never shows that were marketed as part of the MCU(apart from AOS earlier seasons) and didn't have MCU movie characters in main roles. That is a huge difference. That immediately makes it more connected. Also multiple seasons per show don't feel as overwhelming as multiple 1 season shows, even though it's the same length.

[ZattMurdock]

In my humble opinion, so far we had three films using characters that had a Marvel tv show presence:

 

Spider-Man: No Way Home

Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania

 

I think that at least two of those are slam dunks and Quantumania while debatable it’s biggest issue is the character’s current actor real life legal troubles, not really the film itself. So yeah, Marvel isn’t in an easy situation with Majors, Quantumania wasn’t as good as it could be, but when the worst issue here is Majors real life problems instead of the series, it’s hard to blame the series for the films performances.

 

If the argument here is that they are less focused so the quality is dipping then you might have a point, and that’s actually what I believe Iger was inferring on that awful not good interview he did.

[dudalb]

Just now, Youngstar said:

 

That's why to me it's not that different in volume, but to the average person there is a huge difference here:

 

There were never shows that were marketed as part of the MCU(apart from AOS earlier seasons) and didn't have MCU movie characters in main roles. That is a huge difference. That immediately makes it more connected. Also multiple seasons per show don't feel as overwhelming as multiple 1 season shows, even though it's the same length.

This.

There is a huge difference between watching multiple seasons of one show and watching five or six shows  a season. With the former, you do generally get a break of a few months during the summer. That makes a big difference in preventing burn out.

I alos think you have too many people approaciing this who are huge, die hard Marvel fanboys. The vast majority of viewers are not. They don't have a unlimited appetite for Marvel shows the way the hardcore fanboys do. And that General Audience is what makes or breaks a show or a movie.

[ZattMurdock]

8 minutes ago, Youngstar said:

 

That's why to me it's not that different in volume, but to the average person there is a huge difference here:

 

There were never shows that were marketed as part of the MCU(apart from AOS earlier seasons) and didn't have MCU movie characters in main roles. That is a huge difference. That immediately makes it more connected. Also multiple seasons per show don't feel as overwhelming as multiple 1 season shows, even though it's the same length.

Looking back that’s easy to say. But that wasn’t how those Marvel shows were presented back in the day. I do remember interviews like this:

 

Quote

"We have considered everything. But the trick is that we already have at least sixty characters with whom we must tell a story! And it's hard enough to communicate with Taika Waititi, Ryan Coogler, Scott Derrickson, Peyton Reed and James Gunn at the same time, not to add all the showrunners and TV crews to this. The latter is also led by totally different people. So it's practically impossible. Our job is to focus on the Marvel film world and offer a satisfying climax."

https://movieweb.com/avengers-infinity-war-why-defenders-netflix-crossover-impossible/

 

 

This interview is from 2018, btw. So no, people didn’t have a clear idea that what happens with those tv shows weren’t connected to the MCU. It was purposely vague enough to the point people were confused and hoping they would show up until Endgame, for Matt Murdock to show up only in No Way Home three years later.

[ZattMurdock]

7 minutes ago, dudalb said:

This.

There is a huge difference between watching multiple seasons of one show and watching five or six shows  a season. With the former, you do generally get a break of a few months during the summer. That makes a big difference in preventing burn out.

I alos think you have too many people approaciing this who are huge, die hard Marvel fanboys. The vast majority of viewers are not. They don't have a unlimited appetite for Marvel shows the way the hardcore fanboys do. And that General Audience is what makes or breaks a show or a movie.

I never watched all the Marvel TV shows. Hell, I haven’t watched Disney+’s I Am Groot yet. I get what you are saying, but saying that it’s hard to follow because the tv shows is just inaccurate imho. It might be a case of the MCU becoming too big for its own good sure, but that would happen with or without tv shows. I do think that the overall quality dips when you get something like Secret Invasion.

 

So I’m not saying that all these shows are good. But saying that it’s hard to follow doesn’t make sense since as a hardcore myself not even I watch everything.

[SpiderByte]

I think the animosity around Secret Invasion will cool off well before this releases, especially since the only real connection is "Fury is in it". Especially since Loki still comes out before then.

[tonytr87]

I didn't get the hate around Secret Invasion at first. The first four and a half episodes were well-written spy drama with great actors playing off one another. I prefer the MCU when it's down the earth and a little political. But that last episode? It's like Feige completely forgot that he already lampooned this shit in She-Hulk. 

 

The Marvels looks like a cartoon, and I don't mean that in a good way, 

Edited July 28, 2023 by tonytr87

[SpiderByte]

Regardless of box office I do think this will get better reviews than the first did. A lot of them were lukewarm but generally positive, but I think Dacosta has a more fun angle, and even the people who didn't like Brie (as in actually didnt like, not the dumb BRIE LARSON SJW DESTROYS THE M SHE U nonsense) are buffeted by Parris and Vellani so it's more of an ensemble than the first one.

[The Panda]

23 hours ago, SpiderByte said:

It..really doesn't though. They explain everything that's needed in the trailers. Monica has powers and Kamala is a Captain Marvel fangirl, and Fury is alive. Done. That's literally it. You're all caught up on everything from those plots that are relevant to this movie.

 

This sounds a lot like the discussions leading into the first Avengers what happens when people who didn't see any of the other movies see it, and the answer is the same: the movie will catch everyone up. Box Office wise, statistically there are people who saw Endgame without seeing any Marvel movie in theaters before.

 

And if we're still talking shows, they caught everyone up on WandaVision in Strange 2 in like a minute: she had children, she lost them, she got corrupted by an evil force trying to get them back.

Whether it’s hard to follow with or without the TV show isn’t the point. It matters if people perceive that they have to do their homework to follow the movie or not. 

An endgame comparison is also bad. The excitement for that movie was permeating throughout pop culture and it turned it into a “can’t miss” type of event (same with The Avengers). The Marvels has none of the novelty, high profile stars, or highly seen lead-ups and cliffhangers those films had. 
 

Further, unlike those movies this is truly a test where one of the films is highly connected to multiple TV Shows (that most people haven’t watched) vs movies. My speculation is that this will “dilute” the branding. You could easily have another ant-man 3 situation where most people marginally interested choose to just wait until it’s inevitably out on Disney+ a few months later

 

The Marvels has its work cut out for it for many reasons. 
- It’s surrounded by competition 

- It will get limited PLFs

- The TV shows and some poorer quality movies seem to be diluting the MCU brand

- it’s getting increasingly harder and harder to follow with how much interconnected content has come out

Can it still be successful? Sure, but it’ll likely really ride on its quality.

[SpiderByte]

Didn't we just have this conversation that there's no evidence that the shows have any impact on box office a bunch of pages back? Are we just going to do this every week till this releases?

[YM!]

I am unsure if the shows have quality on the box office but I do think that Phase 4 + Quantumania reception negatively affected Guardians 3’s OW despite the bounce back in good reviews+WOM.

[Eric Burnett]

1 hour ago, SpiderByte said:

Didn't we just have this conversation that there's no evidence that the shows have any impact on box office a bunch of pages back? Are we just going to do this every week till this releases?

If you don't like reading this stuff, you can put certain users on your Ignore list or just not visit this thread. I know you may not like this option, but it's either this or nothing. Your choice.

[SpiderByte]

Just now, Eric Bainbridge said:

If you don't like reading this stuff, you can put certain users on your Ignore list or just not visit this thread. I know you may not like this option, but it's either this or nothing. Your choice.

I am not being unreasonable by not wanting to rehash the same two arguments for twenty pages.