The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[boxoff53]

1 minute ago, eddyxx said:

how did they do that with all of the actors on strike…?

Well one possible explanation is that it was always planned, and speculation that the embargo is being lifted late to avoid spoilers  was correct. 

 

I'm not inclined to believe that though because it doesn't sound like the sort of thing you really need to be super cautious about leaking.

[ZattMurdock]

2 minutes ago, BadOlCatSylvester said:

I know what it is, and it comes off as hilariously desperate to me, I'm sorry. Who the fuck cares about that surprise? When Black Adam pulled this stunt the surprise was at least about something fans actually wanted.

I don’t think that’s what this is. Also, Kamala is a mutant, and that’s kind of a big deal. Same as Namor’s. This is intriguing but not because the reason people are getting hyped up. This is another piece of what Secret Wars actually is. I could see where this was going since Loki’s finale, and if this is where they are heading, all of this culminates with Secret Wars.

 

Comparing with Black Adam is absolutely hilarious when you have, you know, Multiverse of Madness, that came way before that.

[boxoff53]

4 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

I don’t think that’s what matters, but what it means to the MCU’s future. I kinda have a different take on all of this but I’d rather discuss in detail after watching the film. The young gen of MCU fans aren’t simpletons, they know what they are talking about and thinking they don’t know better is unwise, in my opinion.

I don't think they're simpletons, i think they're young enough that this version of the character means nothing to them. It reminds me of all the people insisting keaton batman fans were so numerous they'd help the flash box office, not even realizing most of the younger fans have no attachment to him.

[Porthos]

25 minutes ago, keysersoze123 said:

May be @Porthos and others will see some spike today. 

 

These rumors started circulating, what, four, five hours ago?

 

Maybe.  A couple of times over the last few days, more out of idle curiosity than anything else, I did some quick checks of FNAF in the 5pm-6pm corridor for a compare/contrast of my end-of-day sample taken around 11pm/12am ish, just to see how many tickets are being sold in Prime Time on busy days.  Was actually a bit surprised to see a more or less 40/60 split the first time I did it about three days ago (that is, about 57 percent of the daily sales that day were post 5:30pm).  Gonna see what the split is tonight to see if I get a similar range, as I ain't gonna read that much in a one day data point.

 

All of the above is to say, sure, there might have been enough time for a bit of a spike locally, as that would mean this rumormongering started around 4pm-ish my time.  But, well, I also won't be surprised if it takes a full day for word to filter out enough to impact sales. 

 

NB:  Long time readers of the Tracking thread will know that I am a believer in the Halo Effect, in that I have seen a boost on sales for upcoming movies when another large movie is making its debut on Thr/Fri. So disentangling any boost in sales from this discussion about this alleged cameo might be difficult from increased foot traffic at theaters due to FNAF debuting.

 

But, sure.  I'll be on the lookout. 🙂 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Porthos

[fede75]

4 hours ago, Blaze Heatnix said:

 

I read about what could be. It's so freaking random that I'm actually believing it could be real.

it's not random. It's a combination of 

Spoiler

monica traveling to the ultimate universe in the comics on the prologue of secret wars, and carol danvers ( as binary) living in the x mansion on the 70's

but I agree that feels desesperate

[keysersoze123]

13 minutes ago, eddyxx said:

how did they do that with all of the actors on strike…?

Either they had shot it before the strike and initially had no plans of using it or it is from archival footage. We will know for sure what that is shortly. 

[ZattMurdock]

7 minutes ago, boxoff53 said:

I don't think they're simpletons, i think they're young enough that this version of the character means nothing to them. It reminds me of all the people insisting keaton batman fans were so numerous they'd help the flash box office, not even realizing most of the younger fans have no attachment to him.

I don’t think you truly grasp how much enthralled with comic book knowledge these kids are. A lot of the new gen learned about Marvel through the MCU yes, but followed up to comics and discussions online that would put a lot of old time Marvel fans to shame. I’m an Walking Marvel encyclopedia but I’ve always been the exception among my peers, I feel like the new gen is much more knowledgeable about this than they get credit for, regardless the lawful or unlawful ways they went through to acquire that knowledge. Mutants are a big deal. Secret Wars is a huge deal. The Marvels was always leading to this either way, cameo be damned. It started that move revealing that Kamala is a mutant.

 

Basically what I’ve said here:

 

 

[boxoff53]

10 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

I don’t think you truly grasp how much enthralled with comic book knowledge these kids are. A lot of the new gen learned about Marvel through the MCU yes, but followed up to comics and discussions online that would put a lot of old time Marvel fans to shame. I’m an Walking Marvel encyclopedia but I’ve always been the exception among my peers, I feel like the new gen is much more knowledgeable about this than they get credit for, regardless the lawful or unlawful ways they went through to acquire that knowledge. Mutants are a big deal. Secret Wars is a huge deal. The Marvels was always leading to this either way, cameo be damned. It started that move revealing that Kamala is a mutant.

 

Basically what I’ve said here:

 

 

Dude I'm not questioning if they know about the character that is rumored to show up.  I'm saying i really doubt that any of them care if

Spoiler

Kelsey grammer's Beast

shows up. It's just not culturally relevant enough for a lot of people born after 2000,  regardless of their knowledge of comics or the MCU. People aren't going to be rushing to the theater to see that iteration of the character, which is what i said from the beginning but i was trying not to give any details for people who want to avoid rumors/leaks

Edited October 26, 2023 by boxoff53

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, boxoff53 said:

Dude I'm not questioning if they know about the character that is rumored to show up.  I'm saying i really doubt that any of them care if

  Hide contents

Kelsey grammer's Beast

shows up. It's just not culturally relevant enough for a lot of people born after 2000,  regardless of their knowledge of comics or the MCU. People aren't going to be rushing to the theater to see that iteration of the character

Incursions. That’s what this means. It’s happening since Multiverse of Madness. You are talking about an individual thing, I’m saying that the average MCU fan knows what incursions mean, and how that relates to Secret Wars. What I’m saying is that this is the Road to Secret Wars, and said cameo - that I’m not even sure if it’s real - means the same that MoM already implied and Loki is following up. The incursions precede the Secret Wars. We all saw what that meant to Earth 838, but what happened in the MCU since Loki is what leads to Secret Wars. It could literally be anything else, but the director herself has already teased incursions before.

[boxoff53]

And you think that will be enough to generate interest in the movie? Because frankly i don't think they've done a good enough job with the multiverse stuff for people to be enticed by a scene with implications of incursions. The MCU has really failed to get your average person invested after Endgame,  and whether we're talking about a specific cameo or implications for the larger story, my assertion remains the same: this rumor would have very little impact on sales and sounds quite desperate.

[ZattMurdock]

18 minutes ago, boxoff53 said:

And you think that will be enough to generate interest in the movie? Because frankly i don't think they've done a good enough job with the multiverse stuff for people to be enticed by a scene with implications of incursions. The MCU has really failed to get your average person invested after Endgame,  and whether we're talking about a specific cameo or implications for the larger story, my assertion remains the same: this rumor would have very little impact on sales and sounds quite desperate.

I think that the marketing for The Marvels is starting to actually gear up. The Marvel Studios featurette that was released focusing on Captain Marvel earlier was pretty good, and there was a lot of bold claims, with Feige once again claiming that Captain Marvel is one of the most popular Marvel characters. I know that the vitriol surrounding this film is a lot based on chuds trashing women online, but Feige isn’t lying here. Captain Marvel / Carol Danvers is one of the few female characters with a long running comic book and her first film made to $1B WW.

 

Edit — It’s a fucking good featurette, mixing up Captain Marvel’s and Avengers music themes and all:

 

 

I think there is a lot of hyperbole thrown around regarding this film and the truth is while I also have my criticisms for Marvel’s marketing for this film, it’s an unprecedented situation with the SAG-AFTRA strike and, at same time, they might be on to something here. I don’t agree that the MCU ‘failed to get your average person invested after Endgame’, that is an incredibly silly narrative with No Way Home becoming one of the all time biggest films ever less than two years ago, followed by Multiverse of Madness, Love and Thunder, Wakanda Forever and Guardians, Vol. 3. Yeah, Quantumania didn’t ignite the box office on fire, but I think that the hyperbole that the MCU is dead is just that, hyperbole with no basis on facts. 
 

I have no idea where The Marvels is going, if it’s good or if people will care, but I do think that people are underestimating it’s potential. If the film can have this kind of hilarious turn around online based on some rumors, there is still time for the marketing to kick into high gear and the film to deliver if it’s any good. I love the comic book source material that leads to Secret Wars more than the saga itself, and while one could say that Marvel "is aimless", I’m a big believer that they are meticulously laying out their plans since Loki’s first season, and judging how people reacted to No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness, it has been quite effective. Secret Wars isn’t really about Kang in the comics. I don’t expect Secret Wars to be about Kang in the MCU either. If anything, the Lokis and the Stranges are as much to blame for Secret Wars as the Kangs, but there is a key piece of this saga still missing. Maybe - and hopefully - we get them with the Fantastic Four.

Edited October 26, 2023 by ZattMurdock

[Liiviig 1998]

12 minutes ago, boxoff53 said:

And you think that will be enough to generate interest in the movie? Because frankly i don't think they've done a good enough job with the multiverse stuff for people to be enticed by a scene with implications of incursions. The MCU has really failed to get your average person invested after Endgame,  and whether we're talking about a specific cameo or implications for the larger story, my assertion remains the same: this rumor would have very little impact on sales and sounds quite desperate.

Yeah worldbuilding pretty much sucks for now. Just don't think the GA is invested in the whole multiverse story at all. If sales pick up it will be due to the " nature of cameo" itself .  

 

With Deadpool 3 and secret wars down the line and  after the success of NWH .A real possibility some   Cameo fests will probably be coming down  our way bse it may be an easier way to kind stop the bleeding and prop up interest.

 

Yeah this is speculation for now and hey they could right the ship and even this cameo fests if they happen may turn out good who knows .

 

But one thing for sure is if this movies keep on dissapointing esp  the 2024 slate  , Disney will get more desparate in trying to plug the holes.

[ZattMurdock]

3 minutes ago, Liiviig 1998 said:

Yeah worldbuilding pretty much sucks for now. Just don't think the GA is invested in the whole multiverse story at all. If sales pick up it will be due to the " nature of cameo" itself .  

 

With Deadpool 3 and secret wars down the line and  after the success of NWH .A real possibility some   Cameo fests will probably be coming down  our way bse it may be an easier way to kind stop the bleeding and prop up interest.

 

Yeah this is speculation for now and hey they could right the ship and even this cameo fests if they happen may turn out good who knows .

 

But one thing for sure is if this movies keep on dissapointing esp  the 2024 slate  , Disney will get more desparate in trying to plug the holes.

People keep saying that, but No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness critic and public reception say the opposite. Same for the popularity of Loki.

[boxoff53]

11 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

I don’t agree that the MCU ‘failed to get your average person invested after Endgame’, that is an incredibly silly narrative with No Way Home becoming one of the all time biggest films ever less than two years ago, followed by Multiverse of Madness, Love and Thunder, Wakanda Forever and Guardians, Vol. 3. Yeah, Quantumania didn’t ignite the box office on fire, but I think that the hyperbole that the MCU is dead is just that, hyperbole with no basis on facts. 

1, i didn't say the mcu is dead. I think people call that a straw man or something? Idk. 2, being willing to watch a movie isn't the same as being invested. The average person is absolutely not invested in where the MCU is going nor do they feel any urgency to see the movies at all. Some might call it fatigue but I honestly just think a lot of people don't see the point of it anymore. They're certainly willing to see the movies, but only if they get convinced they should bother. Audience investment+consistent quality is what makes a franchise a money printer. I think they've lost both, and each movie is going to sink or swim on its own merits moving forward. 

 

 

[ZattMurdock]

5 minutes ago, boxoff53 said:

1, i didn't say the mcu is dead. I think people call that a straw man or something? Idk. 2, being willing to watch a movie isn't the same as being invested. The average person is absolutely not invested in where the MCU is going nor do they feel any urgency to see the movies at all. Some might call it fatigue but I honestly just think a lot of people don't see the point of it anymore. They're certainly willing to see the movies, but only if they get convinced they should bother. Audience investment+consistent quality is what makes a franchise a money printer. I think they've lost both, and each movie is going to sink or swim on its own merits moving forward. 

 

 

Dude, the one single film since Endgame that is made by Marvel Studios that didn’t do well at the box office is Quantumania. Curiously, despite having a Kang, that film oddly enough not even deals with the multiverse concept other than some exposition and a Loki cameo. 
 

Two of the films recently made by Marvel Studios that dealt with the multiverse became blockbusters, one being No Way Home and the other being Multiverse of Madness. The Marvel Universe is all encompassing far beyond the Marvel Studios films since the end of Loki season 1, a critically and public acclaimed series that not only got a second season but it’s one of the most hyped up tv series currently airing. You are doing a lot of conjecturing and your own bias as facts with the reality saying otherwise. If Marvel is ‘failing’ with films like those, I hope they keep failing exactly like that. Because I love those films and where they are going with it. 
 

The film that bombed involving multiverses was The Flash. Not a Marvel Studios film. I don’t see why people would be confused with that because clearly they haven’t been confused so far.

[boxoff53]

5 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

People keep saying that, but No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness critic and public reception say the opposite. Same for the popularity of Loki.

No Way Home was well received because people like those characters because spider man is one of the most popular fictional characters of all time. Not because people were just so exited for playing around with the multiverse.  It was the result of 20 years of spider-man movies. If you take no way home and replace spider man with,  idk, punisher,  and it isn't anywhere near as successful. 

 

I also think some people don't realize how much wandavision helped multiverse of madness. I certainly wouldn't have seen it if not for Elizabeth Olsen killing it in that show. It made me like wanda a lot more.  Again, other things attracted people to that movie besides the multiverse. I saw that movie really late and i remember mostly heading people say across the spider verse and everything everywhere all at once were much better multiverse movies. 

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, boxoff53 said:

No Way Home was well received because people like those characters because spider man is one of the most popular fictional characters of all time. Not because people were just so exited for playing around with the multiverse.  It was the result of 20 years of spider-man movies. If you take no way home and replace spider man with,  idk, punisher,  and it isn't anywhere near as successful. 

 

I also think some people don't realize how much wandavision helped multiverse of madness. I certainly wouldn't have seen it if not for Elizabeth Olsen killing it in that show. It made me like wanda a lot more.  Again, other things attracted people to that movie besides the multiverse. I saw that movie really late and i remember mostly heading people say across the spider verse and everything everywhere all at once were much better multiverse movies. 

Oh so you are telling us that these films worked because people love those characters? I mean, isn’t that the point lol? You can’t replace Spider-Man with something that didn’t exist. But don’t worry, the Spider-Men, Doctor Strange and even Wanda are coming back, it’s going very much similar with their runs in the comics. 
 

I don’t know what to say to you my dude, yeah Spider-Man: No Way Home worked because it was Spider-Man and 20 years of Spider-Man films, it wouldn’t work if it was The Flash. And it did not. This has nothing to do with how much people care or not about the MCU history and how we are at a special moment in time that they can make sense of all these films and characters throughout 25+ years. People love these characters, yes. That’s why they are popular, I’m not sure how can anyone say that people are tired of multiverse stories with how popular they are right now, and it’s not like Loki is trying to be different than that and isn’t succeeding right now. Maybe if Quantumania actually was a multiverse story it could have succeeded? I don’t know.

[Liiviig 1998]

9 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

People keep saying that, but No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness critic and public reception say the opposite. Same for the popularity of Loki.

NWH - 3 spiderman, iconic villians  is the reason why it was so big . The most criticized aspect of the movie even on release was strange and the whole multiversal bullshit spell he did .

 

DS2 - Don't know why you keep giving this . One of the most divisive MCU entries. Critical reception was fine by MCU standards. Shitty legs . It made a healthy profit and good money no doubt .  Hype around it gave a robust opening but once WOM came through it fell like a rock. 

Global Opening multiplier - 2.1* quite  similar to BVs which was 2.07*.

 

 

 

 

 

[boxoff53]

4 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

If Marvel is ‘failing’ with films like those, I hope they keep failing exactly like that.

Why do you keep making rebuttals to statements nobody made? I literally said people are willing to watch the movies, and I've never said a single word about the MCU  being a failure overall or at the box office.  I specifically said they've failed to get people invested, and then explained that there's a distinction to be made between investment and willingness to consume. 

[ZattMurdock]

5 minutes ago, Liiviig 1998 said:

NWH - 3 spiderman, iconic villians  is the reason why it was so big . The most criticized aspect of the movie even on release was strange and the whole multiversal bullshit spell he did .

 

DS2 - Don't know why you keep giving this . One of the most divisive MCU entries. Critical reception was fine by MCU standards. Shitty legs . It made a healthy profit and good money no doubt .  Hype around it gave a robust opening but once WOM came through it fell like a rock. 

Global Opening multiplier - 2.1* quite  similar to BVs which was 2.07*.

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think Secret Wars is about? Why we are having all this talk about ‘multiversal war’ and what not with Loki? You don’t get three Spider-Men without the multiverse aspect of it. Also, now Doctor Strange is bad because of its multiplier? Both films did what it did without China. Something that you surely know that BvS did have. I can twist numbers to look better than they actually are too, just like you are going out of your way to try alternative facts and will into existence a distaste to Marvel’s multiverse stories when reality points otherwise. Yes, a film featuring multiverses bombed, but that was The Flash, not No Way Home or Multiverse of Madness. What you are doing now is no different than the bullshit discourse that DCEU diehards would make back in the day saying that BvS was in fact a success, it’s mental gymnastics rhetoric that just makes for petty arguments. The numbers for No Way Home are astronomical, that’s precisely what Marvel Studios is angling with Secret Wars, but on steroids.