Batman Returns

[The Stingray]

Is there a more disposable poster on this site than Squaremaster?

 

Hell fucking no, IMO.

C'mon, that's uncalled for.

[Squaremaster316]

Is there a more disposable poster on this site than Squaremaster?

 

Hell fucking no, IMO.

Go rim Burton some more, you useless twit.

 

P.S. Nolan's films show more genuine emotion and warmth than anything Tim Burton or Marvel have ever contributed to cinema

[dashrendar44]

A hell of a lot better and more competently put together than this poorly choreographed nonsense:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMCyB_PDjQ4

 

If you don't understand what is happening in this scene action wise (Catwoman's moves choregraphy is purdy, Hathaway and her stunt double can suck it), I got to question your sight and senses functionality because all what's happening is crystal clear, that's action staging and framing 101. I know it can be so painful for you to see what a good staged action beat resembles and can't appreciate one before your eyes to save your life because you don't know what it looks like since you only fed yourself with Nolan thinking he's the Alpha and Omega of all things on Earth...

 

Now let's take look how Nolan stages and edits a simple action scene...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obYNbQXCnx8

 

Absolutely awful, I got a headache just to distinguish what's happening, who is doing what and where all this takes place even if it was in 2D. Did you even know that Nolan asked BUF company (VFX company) to do twice the amount of the epileptic inducing sonar shots because he realized in editing room that the scene made absolutely no sense and lacked any good spatial references, no one understood where anyone was in that freaking building. So BUF put a lot more CGI shots that they were accounted for with Morgan Freeman's voice over telling us where Batman is because of Nolan's glaring incompetent flair for staging action visually on his own terms.

Edited October 15, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Squaremaster316]

Pfeiffer's/Keaton's choreography is atrocious!  Slow, stilted, awkward, and so ridiculously fake looking.  Nolan's were visceral and high impact, much like Bourne, and Hathaway's absolutely crushes it in every measurable capacity.  The fact that you try to defend the terrible action in BR as something good really says something about your preferences for film making.  I swear, the only thing missing from BR was Burton yelling CUT and then forgetting to turn off the camera.

 

Another film that could have benefited from Nolan's camera style is Blade.

[dashrendar44]

 

Another film that could have benefited from Nolan's camera style is Blade.

 

Nolan got a camera style? That's news for me. You mean doing endless boring and dull shot/reverse shots is a camera style?

 

Yeah right, I got it you like your action movies boring and lifeless in a confused visual mess that you dub "visceral" ( ). But thanks God, the art of moviemaking and filming action has evoluted since 1935.

 

Don't ever watch a Wu Xia Pian or any Tsui Hark movies, you may suffer an eye stroke.

Edited October 15, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Squaremaster316]

A much more engaging film on the visual level than Burton's drab, monotone, stale emo/goth style, which is drastically overrated visually and only serves to grind the film/story to a halt.

[CaptainJackSparrow]

I haven't seen this yet, but it can't be worse than B89.

[dashrendar44]

Nolan's can't mask his patent lack of any visual flair beneath the abysmal choppy editing unable to convey any adrenaline rush and thrilling emotions (Rachel, most boring love interest in a Batman movie ever. Selina Kyle is another proof that Nolan got serious problems making interesting female characters that are not one dimensional abstraction to move the clunky plot forward), combined with the blatant unability of staging comprehensive action to achieve maximum effective kinetic movement. It's a monotone muddled mess that rings hollow. He's the poor man Michael Mann and always will be.

 

Burton unabashedly seized the material to his own personal sensitivity and put his flamboyant expressionist visual stamp on it, still seen as a remarkable unique vision of the Caped Crusader full of brash bravado and perversions going beyond what is on paper, that left strong and fascinating impressions still talked about to this day.

Edited October 15, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Squaremaster316]

because the character is so badly written and directed that it comes off as completely laughable.

 

The initial appearance and depiction of Selina Kyle is nothing more than a frumpy, 'coke bottle' glasses wearing, fretting secretary who is completely crushed under the weight and put downs of the wealthy elite male population. We see she lives in a mediocre apartment with a few cats, and spends the remainder of her day listening to her complaining mother via voice message.

 

What this scene is conveying is that this woman has no life or activities outside of work and hanging out in her apartment. I want you to remember this, because I'll get back to it in a few minutes.

 

Later, during the riot in Gotham square with the Red Circus gang, she is seen stumbling around, then gets accosted by one of the gang members, held hostage by knife point in a confrontation with Batman, during which the entire time, she's screaming and frightened for her life. Now this isn't a slight on this character thus far, because everything we've seen reflected in her behaviour indicates that she would react this way. She is not calm and collected, she is not maintaining a level head, and displays nothing in the way of street smarts or self defence skills. Put a tack on this as well.

 

After discovering the plans of Max Shreck, a character who defines the term useless tag along villain, he pushes her out the window, where she lands on the pavement below, KILLING HER! Why do I say killing her? Well, let's let the next scene speak for itself.

 

 

So cats come up to Selina, bite and chew at her, resurrecting her and triggering an asinine series of events.

 

We see Selina the next day emerging into Shreck's office to spout some intentionally non-sensical gibberish eluding to emasculation.

 

Now changing her attitude to become more self confident after such a traumatic experience is nothing new or out of the range of possibility; even average films like Roseanne Arnold's She-Devil pulled this off reasonably well. This aspect is done fairly well if a bit over-the-top at times.

 

Now many, including Burton himself have argued over the years that Michelle's Catwoman character was not a creation of supernatural origin. He states that her “Nine lives” references are purely allegories for being lucky. That she never died, but the “attempted” murder simply brought about this radical change in personality.

 

If that's true, then how the hell does she survive several gunshots from point blank range? Max clearly hits vital organs, which is emphasized by him looking at the gun as if there's something wrong with it when she doesn't keel over.

 

How does she survive being electrocuted during her “last kiss” while Shreck is burned to a skeleton?

 

The other problem with this refers back to those two moments I referenced earlier. How does she suddenly gain the ability to perform complex gymnastic flips, not to mention the hand-to-hand combat skills that allow her to stand toe-to-toe... with Batman, a master of several different martial arts?

 

As referenced before, at no point does this character display anything resembling confidence or a life dedicated to learning these skills, and last time I checked, learning martial arts is supposed to be a huge confidence booster. So the only thing I can say about this scene is... a wizard did it.

 

Personally, I fail to see the difference between this Catwoman and Halle Berry's depiction in the maligned spinoff 12 years later. The only difference is that Burton doesn't go into much detail or back story as to how his Catwoman came to be, and those who defend Returns will say “That's not what Burton would have done”; but still, if he had decided to delve into the elements that created Pfeiffer's character, I don't see how he could have come up with anything less asinine than the product Pitof provided. He wrote himself into a corner.

 

Note: there is discussion of a scene that was cut from the film which gives a back story on Selina's gymnastic and self-defence capabilities, but since that scene was cut, it doesn't factor any way into the final product, and even if it did, it would still present the problem with the depiction of the character alternating between two radically different extremes. There is absolutely no subtlety to how these two archetypes are presented; they are absolutes, and thus, they have no subtle transitions.

 

Perhaps if they had included a backstory akin to, say... she was an undercover sleeper agent trained by the government, and then given a codeword to activate her hidden talents at an appropriate time. When Schreck pushes her out the window and hitting her head from the fall, the head trauma allowed those hidden skills to pop to the surface, but resulted in a twisted, out of control personality, and as a result, the organization responsible had to step in and neutralize her. Sure, it would have been convoluted, but at least this would have given audience a less “out there” reason.

 

I'd compare this to Anne Hathaway's transitions in The Dark Knight Rises, which were done so much better

 

 

 

Lt's make another comparison to another film with a similar scene, Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill volume 1.

 

In this film, there is a pivotal scene where Uma Thurman's character, Beatrix Kiddo, meets with retired sword maker, Hattori Hanzo. During the initial meeting, she gives off the vibe of a shy, polite American woman, somewhat naive of the native Japanese culture. However, after stating that she is looking for Hanzo, her expression, composure and manner of speaking changes to reflect that of an intelligent, hardened, and cultured warrior, and it was done with a great subtle transition.

 

The reason that this subtle transition was possible is that Thurman played both roles with reservation; neither the shy persona, nor the confident one, were over the top in their execution, making the gradual change far smoother than if the soft version was akin to, oh... Shelly Duvall's fragile character from The Shining, and the hardened side resembled an exaggeration of Xena: Warrior Princess.

 

For a comparison that hits closer to home, watch Anne in TDKR in her first interaction with Bruce Wayne. A much, MUCH better portrayal and a far better written and executed character. The thing I find funny is that Anne portrayal didn't have to be sensational to surpass Pfeiffer's, just competent.

 

On top of the ill-conceived back-story, Pfeiffer's character has no discernible purpose in this film. Oh sure, there's talk of getting revenge against Schreck, but she doesn't even attempt to follow up on this threat until near the end of the film; before that, her interaction with Schreck is limited to that one scene I mentioned earlier. The rest of the time, she's attempting to fight or screw Batman, breaking into and blowing up department stores, teaming up with Penguin, beating up criminals, saving women from assault, kidnapping and using women to frame Batman, dating Bruce Wayne during the day, etc. There is no structure in any of her actions, no clearly established overall goal. She's just a random sequence of events.

 

Other “blunt-as-a-shovel-to-the-face tropes” that this character depicts to emphasize the motif is washing herself like a feline and eating live birds, just in case the fellow “Zombies” in the audience didn't get the message that he character is based on the Felis Genus.

 

Comic book-wise, she is as far from the “definitive” Catwoman as you can get; but, like the Penguin, her comic book origins are rendered meaningless because the writing and general direction around the character in general is just so awful.

[Ozymandias]

I haven't seen this yet, but it can't be worse than B89.

 

It is.

[dashrendar44]

Batman Returns is a fairytale. That's why. It's not realistic dark and gritty faux noir that needs to explain how a man can disguise in a batsuit practically.

 

It's a story about a woman liberating herself so the fact that "she's just doing random things that has no purpose", you completely missed the point, she's just not doing things only to get revenge against Max Shrek, she just reinvents herself from the ground up as an independent and fierce woman, trying to subvert all things that kept her strained and weak.

 

The former Selina Kyle is a loser, no talent, no fulfulling personal life, devoid of any purpose but submission to phallocratic society. She is still the little girl that tries to exist as an adult to no avail (her apartment filled with childhood memorabilias, the puppets house) but is totally devoured by her existential void. That is the fertile ground on which operates her radical change. But she got to die and born again literally to express it psychologically. Here comes the allegory of the Nine Lives of the Cat. BR is a fairytale, fairytales are full of allegories and powerful imagery that symbolize ideas and psychological tropes.

 

Catwoman is a melancholic zombie that is given a new skin by cats. That's why she seems to exist in the limbos and invulnerable on a physical standpoint but if you observe the movie as it goes, each time she "loses one life", her new found skin is shredded and torn into pieces till the finale like a living dead. Her new skin is scarred and made of stitches that she repairs by herself just like her psyche, just like Sally's character in Nightmare Before Christmas as she destroyed violently all stains of normality reminding her of her former self.

 

She's conflicted psychologically and morally, liberating herself as she struggles being torn apart between Good and Evil, the living and the dead, her feline animalistic side and her human side, her former life memories and her rampaging blood hunger, her love/hatred toward Batman and men in general. All the movie is based on duality and she perfectly embodied that thematic Burton questioned. A wounded Femme Fatale, a fierce woman emasculating men with her whip that got abused/killed by every men she met.

 

I won't talk about the SM relations between Batman and Catwoman that is light years better than clumsy attempt in TDKR where Bruce is like a needy guy chasing a woman that keeps on abusing his trust and then falls for him at the end for absolutely no reason other than the plot dictated it as a happy end. See Burton's finale in comparison and his tragical but yet flamboyant and operatic "suicide" with a kiss of death.

 

Burton's Selina is complex because she's tormented and confused by her own feelings. She's not a plot device as in TDKR. She's a human being that spends the movie on her own personality's construction agenda.

Edited October 15, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Squaremaster316]

Hathaway is a far more fleshed out, well written, acted and just flat out less of a literary mess than Pfeiffer's.

 

There's no torment.  Pfeiffer just does stuff throughout the film without any rhyme, reason or discernable goal because the director/writer are total hacks when it comes to good characterizations or logical character development,

 

[dashrendar44]

Hathaway is a far more fleshed out, well written, acted and just flat out less of a literary mess than Pfeiffer's.

 

There's no torment.  Pfeiffer just does stuff throughout the film without any rhyme, reason or discernable goal because the director/writer are total hacks when it comes to good characterizations or logical character development,

 

 

 

 

That little teenager trying hard to be sexy in staged ankward poses and acting all grown up with forced intonations? That's what you call well fleshed out and well acted?

 

Michelle Pfeiffer oozes pure animal attraction and sexyness with her stare and body language. Anne Hathaway is doing a Halloween cosplay.

 

And she spends the whole movie screwing up Bruce Wayne to the point of leaving him to certain death and suffering but he keeps on going back to her like a sick puppy. Then out of nowhere she cracks him a kiss at the very last second before the bomb explodes that cut into a cheesy happy end. Where's the escalation? Where is the transition? The romance development? That's what you call well written?

 

What a joke of a movie. Love stories and characters being in love are one of Nolan's glaring weakness  (among others like staging proper and exciting action scenes) in his movies which are as cold as a penguin's turd emotionally speaking.

 

You need to be checked because you're suffering the "pot calling the kettle black" syndrome.

Edited October 15, 2013 by dashrendar44

[baumer]

I think this movie is about as bad as they come.  It's my opinion and we're all entitled to out opinions.  Does there have to be mudslinging and name calling in this thread?

[Hangman]

I watched The Dark Knight on TV last night, and noticed some stupid shit I hadn't paid attention to before. There's the scene where Batman throws Eric Robert's character off the roof of a building, saying it wont kill him (as if a fall from that height couldn't possibly kill a man), and you hear him screaming, bones breaking etc. But then 10 minutes later Eric Roberts is seen in the hospital talking to Gordon, and there's no crutches, no limp, no nothing...

 

In the scene with Gordon, Maroni is shown from the waist up and he's not moving, so obviously he's not limping and you can't see whether or not he has a crutch.

[Squaremaster316]

That little teenager trying hard to be sexy in staged ankward poses and acting all grown up with forced intonations? That's what you call well fleshed out and well acted?

 

Michelle Pfeiffer oozes pure animal attraction and sexyness with her stare and body language. Anne Hathaway is doing a Halloween cosplay.

 

And she spends the whole movie screwing up Bruce Wayne to the point of leaving him to certain death and suffering but he keeps on going back to her like a sick puppy. Then out of nowhere she cracks him a kiss at the very last second before the bomb explodes that cut into a cheesy happy end. Where's the escalation? Where is the transition? The romance development? That's what you call well written?

 

What a joke of a movie. Love stories and characters being in love are one of Nolan's glaring weakness  (among others like staging proper and exciting action scenes) in his movies which are as cold as a penguin's turd emotionally speaking.

 

You need to be checked because you're suffering the "pot calling the kettle black" syndrome.

And where was any of the motivation in Pfeiffer's actions throughout the film?  She tries to screw Batman, Kill Batman, team up with Penguin, rescue women, kidnap and kill women to frame Batman, blow up department stores, kill Shrek, Whatever!

 

Nothing about Pfeiffer is sexy or alluring, she's even more of an over-the-top caricature than Newmar was in the 60's show, right up there with Carrey's Riddler, complete with terrible dialogue.  There isn't a hint of subtlety, texture or nuance in anything she does, it's all blunt and in your face.  She's more exaggerated than her character in The Witches of Eastwick.

 

Compared to Hathaway's transitions in TDKR, Pfeiffer comes across as a novice.  She's much more subtle, as well as classy and sophisticated.  She also has discernible, logistic goals.  She embodies everything positive about the comic depiction.  Pfeiffer is just a ridiculous farce, like 99% of all the characters Burton has ever directed.

 

Hathaway's Selina was someone who had a rough deal in life and was being put between a rock and a hard place with the League of Shadows.  Everything she did had a logical, and at times, empathetical rationale.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Squaremaster316

[dashrendar44]

Nothing about Pfeiffer is sexy or alluring

 

Come on, you're just trolling at this point.

 

There's no transition in Hathaway's character. She's a selfish burglar that screw every people up for her own personal interest. That characterization holds on a bus ticket.

 

And she magically ends up in love with Bruce Wayne at the end of the movie and kills Bane the pawn after Wayne's teleportation to Gotham City. No transitions, no escalations like in real life. Too bad for a pseudo grounded in realism flick.

Edited October 15, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Squaremaster316]

Come on, you're just trolling at this point.

I found her OTT and freakish with the overly pale skin "Subtle as a brick to the face" lipstick.  You find her attractive, I don't.

[Goffe]

Is there a more disposable poster on this site than Squaremaster?Hell fucking no, IMO.

yes, BKB

[dashrendar44]

I found her OTT and freakish with the overly pale skin "Subtle as a brick to the face" lipstick.  You find her attractive, I don't.

 

I got taste in women, you don't.