Classic Conversation Thread

[Torontofan]

Just some cavets as I think we are comparing this to Usa vs Iraq and that not a valid comparison.

 

Ukraine is not Iraq or Afganistan, this a very well trained  and high morale advanced army that has recieved a ton of support from the west. Our only comparison in such wars is how the USA steam rolled into Baghdad with minimal casaulteis which is not the same. So as a result, seeing someone put up a compotent defense, is a suprise in modern history. 

 

Russians compared to America is likely fine with taking more risk or not caring about casulaties as much. Likely explains the rather brazen attacks by Russia while the USA likely would have engaged in purely air camapign right now if they attacked ukraine before commiting Troops. 

 

I dont think Russia is planning to fully occupy Ukraine, the number of troops commited by Russia is nowhere near enough. Seems they are focused on eliminating the govt and military.  

[grim22]

#NotTheOnion

 

 

 

[dudalb]

5 hours ago, Tarintino said:

That mad man is Putin us all in danger

Someone leaked the US Intelligence psychological analysis of Putin, and, althought the language is, of course measured  it basically says the guy has gone bonkers.

[dudalb]

1 hour ago, Torontofan said:

Just some cavets as I think we are comparing this to Usa vs Iraq and that not a valid comparison.

 

Ukraine is not Iraq or Afganistan, this a very well trained  and high morale advanced army that has recieved a ton of support from the west. Our only comparison in such wars is how the USA steam rolled into Baghdad with minimal casaulteis which is not the same. So as a result, seeing someone put up a compotent defense, is a suprise in modern history. 

 

Russians compared to America is likely fine with taking more risk or not caring about casulaties as much. Likely explains the rather brazen attacks by Russia while the USA likely would have engaged in purely air camapign right now if they attacked ukraine before commiting Troops. 

 

I dont think Russia is planning to fully occupy Ukraine, the number of troops commited by Russia is nowhere near enough. Seems they are focused on eliminating the govt and military.  

Or maybe the RUssian Miliaary just is not that good.

[Torontofan]

32 minutes ago, dudalb said:

Or maybe the RUssian Miliaary just is not that good.

 

Of course compared to the USA 

 

Russian military successes in its history have mostly been with overwhelming numbers with high casualties. 

 

most infamous example is the winter war lol

Edited February 25, 2022 by Torontofan

[excel1]

1 hour ago, grim22 said:

#NotTheOnion

 

 

 

 

An A for effort.

[Lucas]

 

David forgot what the weather was gonna be today, so proceeds to tell Putin to fuck off for 4 minutes.

[grim22]

 

[Porthos]

 

My response, as a person who grew up in the later stages of the Cold War:

 

 

(yes, I didn't feel it nearly as much as my parents or grandparents, but couldn't pass up the gif)

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Porthos

[Maggie]

Garry Kasparov: How the free world gave Putin the green light

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-russia-ukraine-war-putin-nato-biden-20220225-gqmecwvavze6bag6qnlf4fcld4-story.html

[Porthos]

 

Brutal.  Devastatingly brutal interview.

 

--

 

Also it's really inconsequential compared to the fighting and dying going on in Ukraine, but I was struck by how much this ambassador's heart just wasn't in it.  Wouldn't look the interviewer in the eye, his body language one of defeat.  Just someone who knows he is massively in the wrong and can barely keep up with the diplomatic dance moves. 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Porthos

[grim22]

21 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

Brutal.  Devastatingly brutal interview.

 

--

 

Also it's really inconsequential compared to the fighting and dying going on in Ukraine, but I was struck by how much this ambassador's heart just wasn't in it.  Wouldn't look the interviewer in the eye, his body language one of defeat.  Just someone who knows he is massively in the wrong and can barely keep up with the diplomatic dance moves. 

 

 

It genuinely feels like US Intelligence saying that Russia would do a false flag operation really caught them off guard and they forgot to do the entire false flag part. So there's no one big incident any of the apologists can point to as cover, not even the Bowling Green Massacre (Never Forget).

 

I read that Kazakhstan refused to send army support and Syria has their own thing going on, China and India abstained at the vote as well. Russia is pretty much getting no support apart from Belarus right now.

[Porthos]

2 hours ago, grim22 said:

It genuinely feels like US Intelligence saying that Russia would do a false flag operation really caught them off guard and they forgot to do the entire false flag part. So there's no one big incident any of the apologists can point to as cover, not even the Bowling Green Massacre (Never Forget).

 

I read that Kazakhstan refused to send army support and Syria has their own thing going on, China and India abstained at the vote as well. Russia is pretty much getting no support apart from Belarus right now.

 

I don't think it was so much forgot as Putin got caught red-handed, got flustered, and just went in ahead without any real justification. Agree with the off balance stuff, but it's telling Putin went ahead and did this anyway.

 

And while I tend to think just putting this all on Putin makes this a little too neat (for one thing, there will be plenty of elites in his orbit egging him on/not holding him back), I do think there might be something to the idea that Putin going ahead for emotional reasons that he wouldn't have done even a few short years ago.

 

I don't trust Marco Rubio further than I can throw him.  He's far too much of a slimy opportunist who will say just about anything to curry favor with various power brokers on the right in the US.

 

But he did tweet this today and I've seen enough other people saying something similar to go "Hmmmmm....":

 

 

Swinging back to the Irish Ambassador, what this tells me is that Putin didn't line up his ducks in a row and get everyone on the same page internally back home in his government. Which is... I don't want to oversell it, but it's noteworthy.  

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Porthos

[grim22]

2 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

I don't think it was so much forgot as Putin got caught re-handed, got flustered, and just went in ahead without any real justification. Agree with the off balance stuff, but it's telling Putin went ahead and did this anyway.

 

And while I tend to think just putting this all on Putin makes this a little too neat (for one thing, there will be plenty of elites in his orbit egging him on/not holding him back), I do think there might be something to the idea that Putin going ahead for emotional reasons that he wouldn't have done even a few short years ago.

 

I don't trust Marco Rubio further than I can through him.  He's far too much of a slimy opportunist who will say just about anything to curry favor with various power brokers on the right in the US.

 

But he did tweet this today and I've seen enough other people saying something similar to go "Hmmmmm....":

 

 

Swinging back to the Irish Ambassador, what this tells me is that Putin didn't line up his ducks in a row and get everyone on the same page internally back home in his government. Which is... I don't want to oversell it, but it's noteworthy.  

 

 

From what I read, he's actively been telling the Ukrainian army to overthrow the government. Feels like he didn't expect the fighting to even last a day despite having so many troops out there. 

 

I'm just guessing on this obviously, but it feels like he thought he would have the support of the Russian people and that the Ukrainians would also support him and the government would flee or surrender asap. None of that happened so far. Zelenskyy not fleeing is the dominant image everywhere right now.

 

[Torontofan]

The major issue is this turns into a long  quagmire and Putin uses more brazen desperate methods leading to many civilian casualties. 

 

 

[dudalb]

1 hour ago, Porthos said:

 

Brutal.  Devastatingly brutal interview.

 

 

 

Also it's really inconsequential compared to the fighting and dying going on in Ukraine, but I was struck by how much this ambassador's heart just wasn't in it.  Wouldn't look the interviewer in the eye, his body language one of defeat.  Just someone who knows he is massively in the wrong and can barely keep up with the diplomatic dance moves. 

 

 

Welll, the Irish have had experience with being ruled and occupied by a foreign power.....

[dudalb]

Now Putin is threatning Finland and Sweden if they join Nato.

Let's face it, PUtin is only evil, the guy is batcrap crazy.

[dudalb]

Some people over in the Batman movie section are bitching about how the Ukraine is dominating Social Media at the expense of the Batman movie. I think someone has some mseede up priorities.

[Porthos]

 

BTW, this Twitter account has been an excellent source of news and commentary (much of it very not rosy in nature) for folks interested in following developments in Ukraine.

[Porthos]

Wow.  This is a really great thread.

 

Jumping in at a key point, but the whole thing (in both parts) is an EXTREMELY excellent read:

 

 

Some food for thought here and perhaps a catalyst for "why now" and "why did Putin so badly miscalculate what might happen".

 

Highly recommended reading.