The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[Valonqar]

38 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

 

The film introduced baby panther and you really don't have to do too much time fuckery to boost him up into a Spider-Man aged heir. Not sure that's the right way to go but you can easily do it.

 

They wanted a female BP and that was their opportunity. I stand by my opinion it was a mistake and yes Baby Pather should have been a teenager with real problems such as family expectations vs whatever he wanted to do in life while living far from the kingdom and kingly duties. 

 

BP franchise had so many female characters (Queen, Nakia, Okoye, Doras, Shuri) it really didn't need a female lead because women were represented big time. The son should have been the new BP. End of. 

 

Also, you can't just swap characters and keep the villain and the story the same casue that's not how narrative logic works. There's a reason why T'Challa's first antagonist was Killmonger (mirror of T'Challa) and why his next was meant to be Namor. You can't just insert Shuri vs Namor and expect the same result. Not to mention absolute nonsense with his trying to kill a teenager just because 1/2 of the movie was really Iron Heart pilot. You know, a show coming out in 2025!

Edited October 17, 2023 by Valonqar

[Willowra]

1 hour ago, ChipDerby said:

Not here to discuss anything or reply to anyone, just throwing out one final box office post before the end of the year.

 

It's absolute studio malpractice that Marvel/Disney has only released one trailer for this movie, and it doesn't even focus on the main character. 

Marvel Studios was desperate to make Ms. Marvel popular; they wanted people to watch the Ms. Marvel show, so they released a Ms. Marvel-focused first trailer. This is what Feige said last year about The Marvels: “It makes me excited that people will, I hope, see that movie and then go back and revisit those shows on Disney+." They realized their mistake too late and are now focusing on Captain Marvel in marketing. Another stupidity was that they released a second trailer with the same Beastie Boys soundtrack. At least release a trailer with the original soundtrack, goddamn. I can point out a dozen mistakes made by Marvel Studios regarding this movie and its lead character, and we can have 10-page discussions on each mistake.

[SpiderByte]

Why does everyone here act like Ms Marvel, the best reviewed Marvel release ever made, is some kind of widely despised and hated show

[SpiderByte]

54 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

BP franchise had so many female characters (Queen, Nakia, Okoye, Doras, Shuri) it really didn't need a female lead because women were represented big time. The son should have been the new BP. End of. 

Yes yes we all know, the brown women ruin everything for you, it's getting rather repetitive with you. Ms Marvel, Monica, Ironheart, Shuri, all "too much" but yes the five year old boy should have been the main lead of the film.

Edited October 17, 2023 by SpiderByte

[Sckathian]

12 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Why does everyone here act like Ms Marvel, the best reviewed Marvel release ever made, is some kind of widely despised and hated show

Its not hated but its not been popular which is an issue.

[PlatnumRoyce]

41 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

 

They wanted a female BP and that was their opportunity. I stand by my opinion it was a mistake and yes Baby Pather should have been a teenager with real problems such as family expectations vs whatever he wanted to do in life while living far from the kingdom and kingly duties. 

 

BP franchise had so many female characters (Queen, Nakia, Okoye, Doras, Shuri) it really didn't need a female lead because women were represented big time. The son should have been the new BP. End of. 

 

Also, you can't just swap characters and keep the villain and the story the same casue that's not how narrative logic works. There's a reason why T'Challa's first antagonist was Killmonger (mirror of T'Challa) and why his next was meant to be Namor. You can't just insert Shuri vs Namor and expect the same result. Not to mention absolute nonsense with his trying to kill a teenager just because 1/2 of the movie was really Iron Heart pilot. You know, a show coming out in 2025!

 

 

Yeah, they very clearly and explicitly wanted more female leads which presumably influenced this decision. Still, it's a weird situation that involves the deal of a real human people involved in the film actually knew. It's just a messy scenario. I just find it hard to come down too hard on how they mishandled this save for setting up Iron Heart and a Wakanda spinoff involving Okoye (Gurira a/k/a walking dead actress). All of that really does take away potential to build up Shuri and other existing characters while putting a lot on Angela Bassette's shoulders (that being said I...liked Iron Heart's actress and now have some interest instead of negative interest in seeing a film/show with that character instead of negative interest). 

 

Re Baby Panther, Coogler's spoken about his initial plan for BP2 was to have Boseman come back after the snap and have to deal with missing the first 5 years of baby T'challa's life (alongside dealing with the villain plot). I can see how keeping the character but pushing him to the ending tag makes sense as a genealogical aspect of how the film develops. I'm not sure anyone really wanted to focus BP2 on creating an entirely new character and sidelining the other aspects of the film. What Coogler wants (instead of just Marvel's creative committee) presumably has a decent impact on film's development. 

 

I'm really surprised the film didn't elevate M'Baku into a bigger role especially because he also has a way to develop a moral/ideological tension for Wakandan characters and the actor has shown signs of star charisma (unlike Namor and more than Shuri). 

 

 

[PlatnumRoyce]

19 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Why does everyone here act like Ms Marvel, the best reviewed Marvel release ever made, is some kind of widely despised and hated show

No, that's WandaVision by a mile. IF you look at "best tv shows of the year" lists (as aggregated by metacritic - link died a few months ago in a stupid redesign) WandaVision was one of the very "best" shows of 2020 while Marvels got a smattering of votes. It got good reviews (especially for the opening) but it's really not as if people actually talk about it as a superlative show after the fact. 

 

[Valonqar]

3 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

 

 

I'm not sure anyone really wanted to focus BP2 on creating an entirely new character and sidelining the other aspects of the film.

 

 

 

They could have recast cause no one was against it but I guess Marvel was both unsure of the boxoffice prospect and saw the opportunity for female BP and veto'd recasting citing "respect" even though Boseman family wasn't against it and nor were most of fans. People loved Boseman but character should have gone on. 

 

I don't think that the new character (son) would have sidelined the rest - heck they wasted a lot of time on Iron Heart who is new and shoehorned into the plot that really isn't about her - cause he would be the lead and the rest should support the lead instead of being equal to him. I think the problem with The Marvels is that they are trying to make it equal 3 leads movie instead of Carol and 2 sidekicks (hence the title being a team rather than solo character). Maybe they didn't want a white lead and 2 WoC sidekicks situation but if that was the case they should have scrapped sidekicks altogether and just made a Carol movie. It isn't like fans of Monica and Kamala didn't get those characters in live action at all (D+ anyone?)

 

 

[poweranimals]

What's this I'm hearing about Thor appearing in this movie?

[Valonqar]

4 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

No, that's WandaVision by a mile. IF you look at "best tv shows of the year" lists (as aggregated by metacritic - link died a few months ago in a stupid redesign) WandaVision was one of the very "best" shows of 2020 while Marvels got a smattering of votes. It got good reviews (especially for the opening) but it's really not as if people actually talk about it as a superlative show after the fact. 

 

 

Yeah, I'm tired of Ms Marvel Best Reviewed spin. Critics reviewed only first 2 episodes, went overboard with love and then promptly forgot that Ms Marvel existed when the time came to make Top 10, 20, 30 lists. It happens. Something gets high RT score and then everyone forgets about it while something less well reviewed stands the test of time. HOTD got RT reviews in 80s but ended up with Best Drama nomination so that shows that RT doesn't mean shit, staying power does. Andor had a wonky start and then WOM started to spread that it was getting really good and it ended up with Drama Emmy nom. OTOH, Ms Marvel went in opposite direction qualitywise with those few fans who cared to tune in throwing the towel during the Pakistan storyline. Like I said before, they could've made a relatable teen show but they opted for a preachy lesson in heavily revised (for American tastes) foreign history.

 

Wandavision was on Top Lists and got plenty of big above the line nominations including Emmys (Limited, Actresss, Actor, Supporting Actress). It suscks that Marvel didn't know what they had on their hands so instead of building on the momentum they ruined it all with MOM. They thought FATWS was their awards player lol. 

[Sckathian]

15 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

No, that's WandaVision by a mile. IF you look at "best tv shows of the year" lists (as aggregated by metacritic - link died a few months ago in a stupid redesign) WandaVision was one of the very "best" shows of 2020 while Marvels got a smattering of votes. It got good reviews (especially for the opening) but it's really not as if people actually talk about it as a superlative show after the fact. 

 

I still don't get Wandavision. For me its the worst effected by Marvel trying to throw out how TV is made. Its a show with nearly all its episodes set around comedy episodes throughout the decades but at no point is it funny. Or even try to be funny. Bizzare show.

 

If Wandavision had come out more recently rather than be one of the first shows I think it would have been torn apart.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Sckathian

[SpiderByte]

20 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

No, that's WandaVision by a mile. IF you look at "best tv shows of the year" lists (as aggregated by metacritic - link died a few months ago in a stupid redesign) WandaVision was one of the very "best" shows of 2020 while Marvels got a smattering of votes. It got good reviews (especially for the opening) but it's really not as if people actually talk about it as a superlative show after the fact. 

Ms Marvel has better reviews than WandaVision and Black Panther.

[PlatnumRoyce]

2 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

 

Yeah, I'm tired of Ms Marvel Best Reviewed spin. Critics reviewed only first 2 episodes, went overboard with love and then promptly forgot that Ms Marvel existed when the time came to make Top 10, 20, 30 lists. It happens. Something gets high RT score and then everyone forgets about it while something less well reviewed stands the test of time. HOTD got RT reviews in 80s but ended up with Best Drama nomination so that shows that RT doesn't mean shit, staying power does. Andor had a wonky start and then WOM started to spread that it was getting really good and it ended up with Drama Emmy nom. OTOH, Ms Marvel went in opposite direction qualitywise with those few fans who cared to tune in throwing the towel during the Pakistan storyline. Like I said before, they could've made a relatable teen show but they opted for a preachy lesson in heavily revised (for American tastes) foreign history.

 

Wandavision was on Top Lists and got plenty of big above the line nominations including Emmys (Limited, Actresss, Actor, Supporting Actress). It suscks that Marvel didn't know what they had on their hands so instead of building on the momentum they ruined it all with MOM. They thought FATWS was their awards player lol. 

To be fair, part of the problem is simply that the way tv shows are actually reviewed just fundamentally don't work with the RT system unlike films (which it was actually designed for). "Season reviews" are often just "first few episodes sent to critics" and there's no way to fold episode recaps into a season rating unless reviewer actively provides one. 

 

But even beyond that, if you're making a superlative claim, it makes sense to look at a metric that actually attempts to judge things on a superlative scale. Top 10/20/30 lists do this in a way that average ratings don't. 

 

Quote

They thought FATWS was their awards player lol. 

They squeezed out some awards love with makes the show look better in retrospect. FATWS is clearly set up to be part of a longer term "human level" conflicts that also include BW, Wakanda, New World Order and Thunderbolts while WandaVision's influence was always going to be swamped by the then-upcoming DS2. This seems like a rational revenue optimizing move. 

[boxoff53]

8 minutes ago, Sckathian said:

 

If Wandavision had come out more recently rather than be one of the first shows I think it would have been torn apart.

It's fine that you didn't like it,  but if it came out recently it still would be considered one of the better marvel shows. It is better quality. That's just how mediocre and rushed the shows have been. The only two that seem to have had any time put into them are wandavision and loki.

[Valonqar]

7 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

To be fair, part of the problem is simply that the way tv shows are actually reviewed just fundamentally don't work with the RT system unlike films (which it was actually designed for). "Season reviews" are often just "first few episodes sent to critics" and there's no way to fold episode recaps into a season rating unless reviewer actively provides one. 

 

But even beyond that, if you're making a superlative claim, it makes sense to look at a metric that actually attempts to judge things on a superlative scale. Top 10/20/30 lists do this in a way that average ratings don't. 

 

They squeezed out some awards love with makes the show look better in retrospect. FATWS is clearly set up to be part of a longer term "human level" conflicts that also include BW, Wakanda, New World Order and Thunderbolts while WandaVision's influence was always going to be swamped by the then-upcoming DS2. This seems like a rational revenue optimizing move. 

 

Agreed, reviewing only first 2 episodes (LOTR:ROP did the same) doesn't give the full picture and studios notoriously invest more in pilots or new equivalents of them to hook the audience so they tend to be better than some later stuff. HOTD sent the whole season and as such ended up with worse reviews than shows sending only first 2 episodes, but that got balanced out when audience and critics saw the rest of those initially better reviewed shows. Karma.

 

FATWS got above the line nom for Cheadle in Guest Actor Drama only and even he said it was basically a name check. But I agree with that they were setting up longer term human level conflict. 

[Squire]

57 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Why does everyone here act like Ms Marvel, the best reviewed Marvel release ever made, is some kind of widely despised and hated show

Just because a show is well reviewed by critics does not mean it is popular. It also had poor ratings because few people were interested. 

[Valencia]

49 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

 

 

Yeah, they very clearly and explicitly wanted more female leads which presumably influenced this decision. Still, it's a weird situation that involves the deal of a real human people involved in the film actually knew. It's just a messy scenario. I just find it hard to come down too hard on how they mishandled this save for setting up Iron Heart and a Wakanda spinoff involving Okoye (Gurira a/k/a walking dead actress). All of that really does take away potential to build up Shuri and other existing characters while putting a lot on Angela Bassette's shoulders (that being said I...liked Iron Heart's actress and now have some interest instead of negative interest in seeing a film/show with that character instead of negative interest). 

 

Re Baby Panther, Coogler's spoken about his initial plan for BP2 was to have Boseman come back after the snap and have to deal with missing the first 5 years of baby T'challa's life (alongside dealing with the villain plot). I can see how keeping the character but pushing him to the ending tag makes sense as a genealogical aspect of how the film develops. I'm not sure anyone really wanted to focus BP2 on creating an entirely new character and sidelining the other aspects of the film. What Coogler wants (instead of just Marvel's creative committee) presumably has a decent impact on film's development. 

 

I'm really surprised the film didn't elevate M'Baku into a bigger role especially because he also has a way to develop a moral/ideological tension for Wakandan characters and the actor has shown signs of star charisma (unlike Namor and more than Shuri). 

 

 

Wasn’t Brie the one that wanted the all female team movie?

 

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/avengers-endgame-marvel-brie-larson-1203363844/

 

I don’t think Kevin necessarily wanted it but it probably would have been a bad look to refuse, and they were probably thinking they were flop proof because of the brand anyway so why not.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Valencia

[Kon]

1 hour ago, SpiderByte said:

Why does everyone here act like Ms Marvel, the best reviewed Marvel release ever made, is some kind of widely despised and hated show

 

Well, Ms Marvel doesn't seem to be a pretty show.

 

I mean, if Ms Marvel was really popular between the audience, there would likely be a lot more interest on The Marvels.

[PlatnumRoyce]

2 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Ms Marvel has better reviews than WandaVision and Black Panther.

I'm just going to assume you mean Black Panther 2 because otherwise this makes no sense (BP1's 88 metascore /96% positive on RT while 2 had a 67 metascore/84% RT and Ms. Marvel had 78/98). I'll argue you're wrong about BP2 but I do see the argument you're making there but 10 points of metascore aren't equivalent to which work had the smaller trivial number of negative reviews. 

 

 

Look, the biggest problem here is that you fundamentally can't compare film and tv RT/metacritic scores. TV shows don't have the sort of ratings pattern of films (where "everyone" rates every major release at the same time and they're all rating the same thing - the work's entire run). I think top 10 lists mitigate this to some degree but ultimately I'd rather just stick to comparing TV to TV and film to film. 

 

Yes, in terms of raw "average score" you can observe Ms. Marvel is higher. However, again, if you're explicitly making a superlative claim, you need to look at "superlative review" metrics. Ms. Marvel's placement on such lists is not zero but also pretty underwhelming based on those scores. The fact that Ms. Marvel got a number of votes while low on the list still means it did very very well on that metric (and while it was shut out of major emmy noms it still got 3 below the line ones). It's just nowhere close to WandaVision which was treated as something like the 5th/6th best TV show of the year (with an obvious bias to shows with a higher baseline level of viewership) below Succession, White Lotus, Mare of Easttown, reservation dogs and possibly Only Murderers/Hacks/Underground railroad (again I forget what the final total was). It also got nominations for best series, all 4 acting categories and directing. It's just easy to see Wandavision was one of the biggest tv shows of the year in terms of creative accolades and Ms. Marvel simply was not (of course, that's not unconnected to viewership success and failure). 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Sckathian said:

I still don't get Wandavision. For me its the worst effected by Marvel trying to throw out how TV is made. Its a show with nearly all its episodes set around comedy episodes throughout the decades but at no point is it funny. Or even try to be funny. Bizzare show.

 

I went the opposite direction - I was annoyed that people pretended that "homage/parody of old shows as a way for character to work out emotional concerns" was this innovative new thing that no tv show had ever done before simply because of Disney's marketing push. However, a few years later I'm warming to it. It's a show that's allowing very good actors to just act against each other and there's clearly a reason why it's a tv show instead of a movie with extra bloat. 

 

I suspect Wandavision wouldn't get as rare reviews if it was released today but I also suspect the lower quality of other recent MCU shows means that Wandavision's strengths really pop in the same way that Andor was helped by flaws of stuff like Obi-Wan.  

[PlatnumRoyce]

14 minutes ago, Valencia said:

Wasn’t Brie the one that wanted the all female team movie?

 

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/avengers-endgame-marvel-brie-larson-1203363844/

 

I don’t think Kevin necessarily wanted it but it probably would have been a bad look to refuse, and they were probably thinking they were flop proof because of the brand anyway so why not.

Quite possibly! I've just been skimming that big new Ringer MCU book and that sort of desire from a number of execs really is a theme of the book which is constantly being reinforced. Intended as less of a specific claim than the idea that they saw it as a positive good in itself that would likely have positive results.

 

Quote

and they were probably thinking they were flop proof because of the brand anyway so why not.

I think that's clearly not the case. Marvel made a big bet on TV-film synergies including as a way to develop a new generation of potential star characters. They clearly were all in on pushing Ms. Marvel as a potential breakout character. If they thought "why not" then they wouldn't have made Kamala Khan "the first mutant" or done as much press hyping her up.