The Marvel / MCU Thread || From Blade to Secret Wars, All Things Marvel!

[Kon]

38 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

I don't understand how people's takeaway is "well obviously we can't have women on the X-Men because women don't sell tickets" bullshit in a year where two of the years biggest upsets are Barbie and Taylor Swift. The reason for The Marvels was not "people don't want to see movies starring women".

 

To be fair, your examples are succesful female lead movies whose main demographic were female. I've never seen the argument that a movie directed towards women shouldn't have a female lead.

 

The issue is about female lead movies in genres whose main demographic are male (like superhero movies). There isn't seem to be a lot of interest on female superhero teams.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Kon

[SpiderByte]

No, we are not going to have a "wokeness" argument about the frigging X-Men of all things. An X-Men team absolutely should not be all white guys just because of The Marvels.

[Willowra]

15 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Dude you do this constantly, you make up an insane, ridiculous argument that nobody else is making or is based on any actual information, and then act like it's something that's absolutely going to happen, like how you spent like six pages whining about how Lokis finale release date would impact The Marvels, an insane argument based on absolutely no reasoning, and now this saying "They can't make a Storm movie before the X-Men comes out! It'll be doomed" when literally the idea of that happening is something you made up

 

Nope I never said that is absolutely going to happen, nor did I say that the Loki finale would absolutely impact the Marvels box office(Though it is matter of debate now that how much Loki finale took the limelight away from the marvels). The problem is that you have been unable to comprehend what is an assumption or speculation and what is a fact.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Willowra

[Kon]

8 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

No, we are not going to have a "wokeness" argument about the frigging X-Men of all things. An X-Men team absolutely should not be all white guys just because of The Marvels.

I've never said an X-Men team should be a group of white guys. Honestly, I don't know how you jump from "I don't think an all female team is the best idea in a genre directed to men" to that.

 

I'm pretty sure the X-Men team in the MCU will have diversity (and women). 

 

 

PS: That said, X-Men in comics started with a group of white people (and only one woman).

Edited December 20, 2023 by Kon

[SpiderByte]

1 hour ago, Kon said:

That said, X-Men in comics started with a group of white people (and only one woman).

Yes, because back then they weren't an allegory for oppression, that came later. Back then they were meant to be mutants in the sense of radiation, hence the Children of the Atom thing.

[John Marston]

 

[WittyUsername]

The day people start accusing Disney of making the X-Men of all things “woke” will mark the point where all this culture war nonsense reaches peak stupidity. 

[Eric Lasagna]

Moderation

 

@Belakor and @Willowra have been threadbanned for 24 hours for posting sexist nonsense related to the X-Men.

 

As an aside to everybody else, if you don't like the idea of women, women who are iconic and loved in X-Men lore, being in a silly superhero movie series for children, go somewhere else. We don't need sexist trash like y'all here.

[SpiderByte]

Honestly I think we're gonna hear about who's actually directing Avengers 5 before any sort of recast or new villain.

[AMC Theaters Enjoyer]

Marvel is in a tricky position with Kang. On the one hand, he hasn’t exactly gotten the best response with audiences so far and hasn’t built the hype needed to be the big bad so far: on the other hand, dropping him and diverging to a new villain so suddenly also has its issues and risks in terms of storytelling and audience investment. I’m not sure what would be the best option here.

[YM!]

Feel like this thread has caused more discourse than just letting The Marvels thread die out naturally. It's always someone bitching about wokeness or the same whether or not Marvel is dying and “this bad sign isn't actually a bad sign”. At least then, they'd get threadbanned in a matter of time or would be pivoted with information in another Marvel thread.

Edited December 20, 2023 by YM!

[Eric Lasagna]

1 minute ago, YM! said:

Feel like this thread has caused more discourse than just letting The Marvels thread die out naturally. It's always someone bitching about wokeness. At least then, they'd get threadbanned in a matter of time.

A reminder that reporting posts or even just @ing me makes the process a lot easier and faster than just complaining about it. I can't check the thread at all times to know when drama happens or when somebody speaks nonsense.

[YM!]

2 minutes ago, Eric Wonka said:

A reminder that reporting posts or even just @ing me makes the process a lot easier and faster than just complaining about it. I can't check the thread at all times to know when drama happens or when somebody speaks nonsense.

Ik, wasn't here for whatever went on just now, just venting.

[Brainbug]

I dont doubt that an all-female X-Men Movie could work.

 

I just doubt that current Marvel Studios could make such a movie work.

 

Although i can see the potential (in general) for the X-Men in the MCU for sure, the overall problem right now is that Marvel has lost the audiences' trust that they deliver quality movies - because they have not for quite a long time now. It doesnt matter what Marvel project gets announced, who stars in it or whats it about - personally, i think theyre in deep shit right now and the only solution to that is to make numerous great movies in a row. And again, currently, nothing points in that direction imo. 

 

Maybe this movie is the one to turn the ship around. It could be, but i woudnt bet on it.

 

[Porthos]

6 minutes ago, Brainbug said:

Although i can see the potential (in general) for the X-Men in the MCU for sure, the overall problem right now is that Marvel has lost the audiences' trust that they deliver quality movies - because they have not for quite a long time now. It doesnt matter what Marvel project gets announced, who stars in it or whats it about - personally, i think theyre in deep shit right now and the only solution to that is to make numerous great movies in a row. And again, currently, nothing points in that direction imo. 

 

 

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? Not gonna play the "fun with endpoints" game, so instead I'll intentionally go with what kicked all of this off and start with Eternals.

 

Perceived WOM (to try to forestall inevitable arguments about what WOM really was)

--- Late 2021

Eternals: Mixed-to-bad 

No Way Home: Stellar

---

2022

Multiverse of Madness: Mixed (on the controversial side)

Love and Thunder: Mixed (on the quality side)

Wakanda Forever: Good (if melancholy)

---

2023

Quantumania: Very bad

GOTG3:  Very good.

The Marvels:  Bad to apathetic.

 

Kiiiinda think the vibes would be better here if Wakanda Forever was a more crowd pleasing film in the vein of GOTG3 and NWH.  But because it couldn't be a crowd pleasing film (or at least the filmmakers didn't want to make one which is pretty much the same thing) I think its reception by the public gets memory-holed a little bit in these discussions.  Being sandwiched by Quantumania and the one-two punch of DS2 and L&T doesn't help matters for it.  Makes it seem like there hasn't been much outside of GOTG3 since NWH.

 

With Gunn departing to WB, also kind think GOTG3 being Gunn's baby is shaping perceived notions about the health of the MCU going forward.  If we want to really dig into perceived notions, even Wakanda Forever might be getting a bit of that with it being seen as Coogler's territory and insulated from the greater MCU.

 

I think it might be fairer to say that the public is reacting to inconsistent quality that's been going on for a couple of years now and absolutely not caring about the current plotline/new characters. And as much as it might rankle some, do think the perceived quality of much of the D+ output isn't helping matters when it comes to how the MCU is viewed currently.  

 

But attitudes being what they are, might not take all that much to turn it around.  But do agree that a lot is riding on the reception of the non-Deadpool films in the works at the moment.

[Porthos]

14 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? Not gonna play the "fun with endpoints" game, so instead I'll intentionally go with what kicked all of this off and start with Eternals.

 

Perceived WOM (to try to forestall inevitable arguments about what WOM really was)

--- Late 2021

Eternals: Mixed-to-bad 

No Way Home: Stellar

---

2022

Multiverse of Madness: Mixed (on the controversial side)

Love and Thunder: Mixed (on the quality side)

Wakanda Forever: Good (if melancholy)

---

2023

Quantumania: Very bad

GOTG3:  Very good.

The Marvels:  Bad to apathetic.

 

Kiiiinda think the vibes would be better here if Wakanda Forever was a more crowd pleasing film in the vein of GOTG3 and NWH.  But because it couldn't be a crowd pleasing film (or at least the filmmakers didn't want to make one which is pretty much the same thing) I think its reception by the public gets memory-holed a little bit in these discussions.  Being sandwiched by Quantumania and the one-two punch of DS2 and L&T doesn't help matters for it.  Makes it seem like there hasn't been much outside of GOTG3 since NWH.

 

With Gunn departing to WB, also kind think GOTG3 being Gunn's baby is shaping perceived notions about the health of the MCU going forward.  If we want to really dig into perceived notions, even Wakanda Forever might be getting a bit of that with it being seen as Coogler's territory and insulated from the greater MCU.

 

I think it might be fairer to say that the public is reacting to inconsistent quality that's been going on for a couple of years now and absolutely not caring about the current plotline/new characters. And as much as it might rankle some, do think the perceived quality of much of the D+ output isn't helping matters when it comes to how the MCU is viewed currently.  

 

But attitudes being what they are, might not take all that much to turn it around.  But do agree that a lot is riding on the reception of the non-Deadpool films in the works at the moment.

 

To put the above argument a different way:

 

I know inflation, the aftermath to the pandemic and just in general social media has fucked with all of our brains, but I assure everyone here that November 2022 was only 13 months ago!  

[Brainbug]

38 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? Not gonna play the "fun with endpoints" game, so instead I'll intentionally go with what kicked all of this off and start with Eternals.

 

Perceived WOM (to try to forestall inevitable arguments about what WOM really was)

--- Late 2021

Eternals: Mixed-to-bad 

No Way Home: Stellar

---

2022

Multiverse of Madness: Mixed (on the controversial side)

Love and Thunder: Mixed (on the quality side)

Wakanda Forever: Good (if melancholy)

---

2023

Quantumania: Very bad

GOTG3:  Very good.

The Marvels:  Bad to apathetic.

 

Kiiiinda think the vibes would be better here if Wakanda Forever was a more crowd pleasing film in the vein of GOTG3 and NWH.  But because it couldn't be a crowd pleasing film (or at least the filmmakers didn't want to make one which is pretty much the same thing) I think its reception by the public gets memory-holed a little bit in these discussions.  Being sandwiched by Quantumania and the one-two punch of DS2 and L&T doesn't help matters for it.  Makes it seem like there hasn't been much outside of GOTG3 since NWH.

 

With Gunn departing to WB, also kind think GOTG3 being Gunn's baby is shaping perceived notions about the health of the MCU going forward.  If we want to really dig into perceived notions, even Wakanda Forever might be getting a bit of that with it being seen as Coogler's territory and insulated from the greater MCU.

 

I think it might be fairer to say that the public is reacting to inconsistent quality that's been going on for a couple of years now and absolutely not caring about the current plotline/new characters. And as much as it might rankle some, do think the perceived quality of much of the D+ output isn't helping matters when it comes to how the MCU is viewed currently.  

 

But attitudes being what they are, might not take all that much to turn it around.  But do agree that a lot is riding on the reception of the non-Deadpool films in the works at the moment.

 

Like always your breakdowns are making me feel a bit silly to write only a short response but, id argue that inconsistency is as bad as consistently bad in a key aspect: Not beeing able to trust if the next MCU movie will be good or bad.

 

I firmly believe the MCU had become such a massive phenomenon because of their frankly insane quality control. Between The Avengers (2012) and Endgame there were like two movies (Thor 2/Ant-Man 2) that were overall poorly received, all the 554 other movies were successes. In hindsight, this is mind-blowingly good.

 

But for the last 2 years, exactly this quality control has been lost. And not just because of the movies like Ant-Man 3, Eternals or The Marvels, but also because of the mediocre shows. The MCU now stands for quantity over quality, while only 4 years ago, the opposite was the case.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Brainbug

[Porthos]

1 hour ago, Brainbug said:

 

Like always your breakdowns are making me feel a bit silly to write only a short response  

 

You want a short response?  Here's one:

 

NWH = TFA

DS2   = TLJ

AM3  = TROS

 

A whooooole lot of things snap into place when the recent anchor movies of the MCU are looked at in that light.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Porthos

[Porthos]

 

1 minute ago, Porthos said:

 

You want a short response?  Here's one:

 

NWH = TFA

DS2   = TLJ

AM3  = TROS

 

A whooooole lot of things snap into place when the recent anchor movies of the MCU are looked at in that light.

 

A bit more seriously*, I 100 percent agree that inconsistency has been a big drag on the MCU.  Also extends to the D+ output where there have been a few standouts, at least one reviled show, and a whole bunch of "meh"/Mixed reactions.

*though, really though, don't discount the quoted post.

 

Inconsistency is a really bad thing.  But ultimately, I think it's just not liking the current direction of the story being told.

 

My tongue was (very) slightly in cheek in this quoted post, but I do think the broad outlines fit.  There's a notion running around that the public has rejected multiverse stories and I don't think that's exactly true.  They've rejected *this* multiverse story.  Only have to look at the anticipation for DP3 to see what I might mean here.

 

NWH blew the doors off of the public.  It does get discussed a decent degree, but there was a lot of anticipation for DS2 in that it was thought that it might open the door to the Fox X-Men characters to take their stage in the MCU (despite a lot of logic to the contrary).  I think looking at DS2 as the MCU's TLJ makes sense in at least one respect in that a decent chunk of the Marvel base didn't like the direction of the story or how certain characters (ie Wanda) were handled.

 

(AM3 = TROS was a bit more of a joke)

((but then again, maaaaaaybe not — see next paragraph))

 

Continuing on with this, I infamously wrote a very detailed post analyzing just why it seemed that an Ant Man film, of all films, might be having such an explosion of pre-sales (and I'm not going to engage in revisionist history — it absolutely did) in that it looked like the MCU was finally gonna get off the pot and advance the Main Multiverse story.

 

And it did.  Problem is, public didn't like the story told/manner it was told in.

 

Adding to this is not connecting with characters to the same degree as prior films, plus the perceived quantity over quality plus various asterisks being put on the successful projects of the last two years (NWH = Sony, BP2 = it's own corner of the MCU, Gunn = Gone To WB) and.... Well, we get the current situation.

 

The real open question is: How soon can it be turned around?  I don't have high hopes for Thunderbolts, I must admit.  But actually low-key have good feelings about Brave New World.  Just a feeling that that is the one that is gonna surprise a lot of people.  So if DP3 and BNW do well?  Well, that sets the stage for the comeback for the next... ahem... phase of the MCU (as opposed to the next Phase of the MCU).

Edited December 20, 2023 by Porthos

[Bob Train]

13 hours ago, SpiderByte said:

like how you spent like six pages whining about how Lokis finale release date would impact The Marvels, an insane argument based on absolutely no reasoning

Given how badly The Marvels did, Loki affecting it in some way cannot be ruled out. Sure, there are many other reasons why it was a bomb, but for a sequel to a $1b grossing movie to be unanimously rejected globally like The Marvels was, there must be many things going wrong at once. Perhaps timing the conclusion to Disney's most popular limited series on the release date of a Marvel movie in theaters was one of them? That's all I'm saying.