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kayumanggi

VALERIAN AND THE CITY OF A THOUSAND PLANETS | 184.7 M overseas ● 225.2 M worldwide

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I don't think you can label this as the biggest dissappointment boxoffice wise when it was predicted to flop all along... 

 

Is $200M+ WW possible?

Edited by Mr Impossible

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4 hours ago, KGator said:

  First off, the actual contracts are not public knowledge so the details are mere speculation and no publicly shared company is going to admit how bad something is for fear of hurting their stock.  Public statements from different parties seem to indicate that Europacorp is actually on the hook for the marketing portion in some countries (which can be considerable in today's market).

 

Tax credit for european films are public and easily verifiable. Valarian has introduced tax credit request in France and in Belgium reports are public and available on the net (link posted in previous post).

 

90% of french movies are not profitable and french cinema is only viable because of public incentives. Luc Besson became a kind of master in tax optimisation and public funding. It is also important to know that a big part of Valerian's budget was spend in order to rent studios in "La Cité du Cinéma" all this money ended  in the Pocket of... Europacorp (as main exploitant of the studio).

 

Perfect example of non profitable movies followed be multiple sequels :

 

Arthur and the Invisibles (2006) --> directed and produced by Luc besson

Budget : 86 m$

Total Gross: 107m $

 

1st sequel

Arthur and the vengence of Malthasar (2009)--> directed and produced by Luc besson

Budget : 80m$

Total Gross: 51m$

 

2 sequel

Arthur and the war of 2 world (2010)--> directed and produced by Luc besson

Budget: 85m$

Total Gross : 50m$

 

Total Budget of trilogy : 250m $

Total Gross: 210m$

Edited by Nicoco

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1 hour ago, Nicoco said:

Tax credit for european films are public and easily verifiable. Valarian has introduced tax credit request in France and in Belgium reports are public and available on the net (link posted in previous post).

 

90% of french movies are not profitable and french cinema is only viable because of public incentives. Luc Besson became a kind of master in tax optimisation and public funding. It is also important to know that a big part of Valerian's budget was spend in order to rent studios in "La Cité du Cinéma" all this money ended  in the Pocket of... Europacorp (as main exploitant of the studio).

 

Perfect example of non profitable movies followed be multiple sequels :

 

Arthur and the Invisibles (2006) --> directed and produced by Luc besson

Budget : 86 m$

Total Gross: 107m $

 

1st sequel

Arthur and the vengence of Malthasar (2009)--> directed and produced by Luc besson

Budget : 80m$

Total Gross: 51m$

 

2 sequel

Arthur and the war of 2 world (2010)--> directed and produced by Luc besson

Budget: 85m$

Total Gross : 50m$

 

Total Budget of trilogy : 250m $

Total Gross: 210m$

 

So your point is . . . . . ?????

 

This movie is a success and we are going to see sequels?  Because this is a "Valerian" thread, not a Besson accomplishments thread.

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2 minutes ago, KGator said:

 

So your point is . . . . . ?????

 

This movie is a success and we are going to see sequels?  Because this is a "Valerian" thread, not a Besson accomplishments thread.

No, his point is that despite the film being a box office bomb it won't necessarily lose money for certain parties.

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50 minutes ago, KGator said:

 

So your point is . . . . . ?????

 

This movie is a success and we are going to see sequels?  Because this is a "Valerian" thread, not a Besson accomplishments thread.

My point is that you should never analyse the financial success of european movies like you do for US movies. And most of all you should never make any conclusion on potential sequels or bankrupt of a studio only based on commercial results because there are some investors in Europe (CF Tax Shelter System) who doesn't care at all that the movie will be successfull or not. Best proof is that since 20 years the only sucessfull movie of Luc Besson is Lucy and he was able to fund som high budget production like Arthur, Joan of Arc and Valerian without too much problems.

 

47 minutes ago, Manchester by the Tree said:

No, his point is that despite the film being a box office bomb it won't necessarily lose money for certain parties.

Thank you for making the effort to understand.

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22 hours ago, Nicoco said:

My point is that you should never analyse the financial success of european movies like you do for US movies. And most of all you should never make any conclusion on potential sequels or bankrupt of a studio only based on commercial results because there are some investors in Europe (CF Tax Shelter System) who doesn't care at all that the movie will be successfull or not. Best proof is that since 20 years the only sucessfull movie of Luc Besson is Lucy and he was able to fund som high budget production like Arthur, Joan of Arc and Valerian without too much problems.

 

Thank you for making the effort to understand.

This is Besson's pet project.  He had already written and planned to film several sequels as part of his master vision.  He's been very open about wanting to take these characters to the big screen for years.  If there is any way humanly possible to produce more in the series Besson is ready and willing.

 

If this film really DIDN'T lose money for the main figures involved then we'll undoubtedly see more Valerian film's on the horizon.  And if we don't . . . I guess we'll really know what happened then huh?   There is no need to continue to speculate about the miracles of creative financing when all we have to do is wait for our answer.

Edited by KGator

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32 minutes ago, KGator said:

no need to continue to speculate about the miracles of creative financing when all we have to do is wait for our answer.

No miracle : 99% of european productions are financed with the help of public incentives....

No Speculation: all public contributions to national movies are published in reports accessible via internet

 

It's not because you don't understand something that it doesn't exists...

Edited by Nicoco

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14 hours ago, Nicoco said:

No miracle : 99% of european productions are financed with the help of public incentives....

No Speculation: all public contributions to national movies are published in reports accessible via internet

 

It's not because you don't understand something that it doesn't exists...

Listen, you don't have to try and prove your fuzzy math for film financing in Europe.  You keep going off track.  Let's refocus for a moment.  Besson already publicly announced that the screenplays for the next two sequels to Valerian were either underway or completed.  If Valerian WAS actually financially viable then we'll see a sequel.  If NOT, we won't.  You can believe whatever you want for now but time will tell whether your speculation is accurate or not.  You already know which side I stand on.

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Besson repeated several times over the last several months that the movie would be fine if it did Lucy numbers.


http://deadline.com/2017/07/valerian-luc-besson-dane-dehaan-cara-delevingne-rihanna-stx-europacorp-disruptors-interview-news-1202092174/

Quote


What does it need to gross?

 

Take Lucy, for example. If it goes to the same kind of numbers that we had on Lucy, then we’re fine. It comes down to something you feel in your gut, and you feel it around the world. You smell it. Fifth Element, I never thought about doing a sequel.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TalismanRing said:

Besson repeated several times over the last several months that the movie would be fine if it did Lucy numbers.


http://deadline.com/2017/07/valerian-luc-besson-dane-dehaan-cara-delevingne-rihanna-stx-europacorp-disruptors-interview-news-1202092174/

 

 

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/valerian-box-office-flop-china-1202532674/

 

As you can see this article gives 300M as the threshold to make a sequel as a citation of Europacorp representatives. But the truth is that US media are bullshit.

 

 

7 hours ago, KGator said:

Listen, you don't have to try and prove your fuzzy math for film financing in Europe.  You keep going off track.  Let's refocus for a moment.  Besson already publicly announced that the screenplays for the next two sequels to Valerian were either underway or completed.  If Valerian WAS actually financially viable then we'll see a sequel.  If NOT, we won't.  You can believe whatever you want for now but time will tell whether your speculation is accurate or not.  You already know which side I stand on.

So you think that making comments on a film and an industry that you obviuously don't want to understand is smart ?

It's your right if you don't want to know how european movie industry is working but then just don't comment....

Edited by Nicoco

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1 hour ago, Nicoco said:

So you think that making comments on a film and an industry that you obviuously don't want to understand is smart ?

It's your right if you don't want to know how european movie industry is working but then just don't comment....

Is English not your first language?  You seem to be having a hard time understanding this topic.  It's like you are replying to a conversation you are holding with yourself rather than any point I made.  Valerian lost money for Eurocorp . . . a LOT of money.  This idea you have that there are investors who are happy to throw money away for tax benefits and it really is a win/win for the Studio . . . errrr . . . okay.  If you are right we will see a sequel.  But until we do I'm going to file your depiction of an uber-creative, mathematically unsound, money laundering style European film industry under the "I don't really give a flip" category.  If they announce a Valerian sequel I'll re-evaluate my opinion of your sanity.  

 

And with that I'll bid farewell from this fascinating . . . . ehhh . . . . well . . . . actually pretty boring and needlessly redundant . . . . discussion.

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1 minute ago, KGator said:

Valerian lost money for Eurocorp . . . a LOT of money.  This idea you have that there are investors who are happy to throw money away for tax benefits and it really is a win/win for the Studio . . . errrr . . . okay.

Maybe you made some typo here by saying eurocorp, do you mean worlds distributors instead ?

 

There is many entity involved:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/07/valerian-luc-besson-180-million-indie-cara-delevingne-dane-dehaan-europacorp-1201851376/

 

Valerian sold overs 100 market among I think over 70 different distributor, it pre-sold for 80m in just one day at Canne.

 

Every of those 70+ entity (one of them being EuroCorp) can individually loose or make money, most will loose money some will probably make money, Eurocorp being the distributor in one of the market Valerian did the best (France) will probably not loose much money if any.

 

https://qz.com/1033865/valerian-luc-bessons-sci-fi-epic-is-the-most-expensive-non-american-film-ever-made/

Shmuger told Forbes the company was on the hook for a little more—around 10% of the budget. “The cost to EuropaCorp to mount the largest European production ever made, the largest independently-produced non-studio production ever made, the dream project of the company’s founder—the total cost to the company is not $200 million or $150 million, but under $20 million of financial exposure,” Shmuger said.

 

Quote

 

 If you are right we will see a sequel.  But until we do I'm going to file your depiction of an uber-creative, mathematically unsound, money laundering style European film industry under the "I don't really give a flip" category.


 

Not necessarily, even if Eurocorp made good money on it we will not necessarily get a sequel, the next time Besson go at Canne and the other buyer market trying to sales Valerian 2 he will not find many buyers, not at that price tag at least. And he cannot make it by having Eurocorp funding it.

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29 minutes ago, KGator said:

Is English not your first language?  You seem to be having a hard time understanding this topic.  It's like you are replying to a conversation you are holding with yourself rather than any point I made.  Valerian lost money for Eurocorp . . . a LOT of money.  This idea you have that there are investors who are happy to throw money away for tax benefits and it really is a win/win for the Studio . . . errrr . . . okay.  If you are right we will see a sequel.  But until we do I'm going to file your depiction of an uber-creative, mathematically unsound, money laundering style European film industry under the "I don't really give a flip" category.  If they announce a Valerian sequel I'll re-evaluate my opinion of your sanity.  

 

And with that I'll bid farewell from this fascinating . . . . ehhh . . . . well . . . . actually pretty boring and needlessly redundant . . . . discussion.

We need to be 2 to maintain such a boring conversation. So thank you for being my boring partner on this boring conversation !

 

I understand that you don't care about being informed on the topic but I put a description of the tax shelter financing system in this link for the interested people :

 

https://www.belgiumfilm.be/film-financing/tax-shelter

 

And yes my native langage is not english (yes "english non-native speaker" does exists in this world and manage to live like normal human beings)...

 

So how is your french ?

Edited by Nicoco

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18 minutes ago, Barnack said:

Maybe you made some typo here by saying eurocorp, do you mean worlds distributors instead ?

 

There is many entity involved:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/07/valerian-luc-besson-180-million-indie-cara-delevingne-dane-dehaan-europacorp-1201851376/

 

Valerian sold overs 100 market among I think over 70 different distributor, it pre-sold for 80m in just one day at Canne.

 

Every of those 70+ entity (one of them being EuroCorp) can individually loose or make money, most will loose money some will probably make money, Eurocorp being the distributor in one of the market Valerian did the best (France) will probably not loose much money if any.

 

https://qz.com/1033865/valerian-luc-bessons-sci-fi-epic-is-the-most-expensive-non-american-film-ever-made/

Shmuger told Forbes the company was on the hook for a little more—around 10% of the budget. “The cost to EuropaCorp to mount the largest European production ever made, the largest independently-produced non-studio production ever made, the dream project of the company’s founder—the total cost to the company is not $200 million or $150 million, but under $20 million of financial exposure,” Shmuger said.

 

Not necessarily, even if Eurocorp made good money on it we will not necessarily get a sequel, the next time Besson go at Canne and the other buyer market trying to sales Valerian 2 he will not find many buyers, not at that price tag at least. And he cannot make it by having Eurocorp funding it.

I think the key issue to make a sequel will be the ability/will of Luc Besson Europacorp to produce Valerian 2 for a lower Budget.

 

To find savings, he could begin with his own salary estimated at 6M$....

 

https://www.ecranlarge.com/films/news/950973-valerian-luc-besson-touchera-plus-d-argent-que-tous-les-acteurs-du-film-reunis

Edited by Nicoco

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6M for Besson writing/producing/directing fee for a project of that many year was already taking a huge cut. And by casting all unknown (and Clive Owen) it was certain that he would be the biggest paycheck involved.

 

5 minutes ago, Nicoco said:

I think the key issue to make a sequel will be the capacity/will of Luc Besson Europacorp to produce Valerian 2 for a lower Budget.

 

He could begin with his own salary estimated at 6M$....

 

https://www.ecranlarge.com/films/news/950973-valerian-luc-besson-touchera-plus-d-argent-que-tous-les-acteurs-du-film-reunis

That could explain that 150m net they are talking about you referenced, 30m Euro is the maximum help in France but if most of the movie spending was in Canada and other VFX places around the world he probably got tax credit from 2/3 other jurisdictions.

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1 hour ago, Nicoco said:

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/valerian-box-office-flop-china-1202532674/

 

As you can see this article gives 300M as the threshold to make a sequel as a citation of Europacorp representatives. But the truth is that US media are bullshit.

 

It's Besson's quote, so if it's bullshit it came out of his mouth - repeatedly.

 

i

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