The Dark Knight Rises

[pinocchio]

He talks about empathy is the most important tool for any screenwriter and that pays off in spades for Bruce Wayne here, especially when you see his whole journey throughout the trilogy.

What? When we first encounter Bruce Wayne in TDKR his company is more or less toast and therefore he can't provide any benefits for the poor anymore. (Like his parents did.) Makes him look like an idiot.Besides that he completely missed what is going on in Gotham. Because he doesn't care. He more or less has become a ghost that doesn't care for anything. And that stupidity didn't last a year or so but a fucking EIGHT years. All this time he was just whining and hiding it seems.And you actually come to the conclusion this behaviour could create some empathy? Wow.

[Deep Wang]

It's clear that you are very hung up on the term "plot hole."

You clearly failed to read their introduction to the piece where they mention, "Some of these are major problems, with the film, while others are minor niggles. But they all have one thing in common: they all jolted us out of the film and took away from our ability to get lost in Nolan's world."

Those are all ridiculous nitpickings from slashfilm, not plot holes.

1) Bane knew Bruce's identity as Bruce became a member of the League of Shadows. It's a gimme.

Looking through your responses, I am not even sure you bothered to read the entire article, or just saw the 15 bolded things in question and went to work. They specifically mention that it was likely through the Al Ghul's that he learned this. Their problem is with the timeline and how it doesn't seem to fit.

So how did they know exactly where Applied Science was located while the entire thing has been "off the books?"

2) Blake is an orphan just like Bruce. He clearly explains in his brilliantly acted monoloue by JGL why he thought that Bruce is Batman. He saw something in Bruce's eyes that only someone like him would notice, everyone else sees Bruce as a billionare and no one expects him to be a hero. Again, how's that a plot hole?

Again, read the article. Their main beef with this was that it happened so early in the film.

3) You're not a medical doctor indeed, so shut the fuck up. Who said that Bruce's back was broken? They way they dragged him clearly shows that it wasn't. So healing from that injury in 5 months is realistic.

So you conveniently skipped the part about him having to "rise" twice in the same film? What was the point of that again?

The truth is, Nolan and company played extremely loose with time in the movie. We will never know how long certain events took because he did not let us know what was happening at what time. I am sure someone will be able to put together a timeline at some point and I guarantee it won't make a lick of sense.

For what it is worth, I can buy him getting better in 4 months time. My biggest problem with that whole prison scene was that he was repairing his back in the prison yet he fell twice from not making the jump. I would think that falling from that height with a rope around your waist would do some damage of it's own, especially to someone that had a vertebrae problem.

4) They complain about Caine's acting. Really? That's a plot hole? It clearly shows that the author of the article is not only a hater, but a moron. Everyone agrees that Caine was brilliant.

They weren't talking about his acting. They were talking about the dialogue and how it was staged.

I don't agree that Caine was brilliant. I thought it was pretty bad myself and didn't fit in with their relationship as we have seen it over 3 movies.

5) Stupid, stupid, stupid. The real world doesn't work like that. It's a process to declare fraud, Lucius even had a quote about that saying that long term it might be fixed, but for short term Bruce is broke.

Yeah, but it's the fact that Bane went and shot up the stock market and had a very note public chase with the police. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what they were doing. Especially when Bruce HAS ALL THE INFORMATION. He could give it to them and help speed along the process. But, since the movie needs Bruce to be broke the entire time, that is what we get.

6) Again, this is an idiotic statment regarding Miranda and Bruce. There were two comments earlier in the film from Alfred and Lucius basically suggesting Miranda as a GF to Bruce. They knew each other for a long time. James Bond needs 5 seconds to pick up a girl, Bruce Wayne can't do that with a woman he knew for years? Please.

OK, maybe others can help me with this. I have a hard time believing it is easier to jump into bed with a woman I have known for a long time than a woman I just met. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Their main problem, if you read it you would've have understood this, is that there is no development of their relationship. Alfred and Fox call her "lovely" and they talk a little bit. There is no flirting, no single hint of a mutual attraction for one another and boom goes the dynamite.

7) The fire was a symbolic act to remind Gotham that Batman is back. It's a great moment.

It was a pretty cool moment. But that whole bit was a mess.

It's the fact that by now he has how much time left to stop the bomb? You have seen it like a dozen times, you can tell me, but I think when he makes it back to Gotham, there is less than a day left, maybe just 12 hours to go until the city is a pile of rubble and MILLIONS of people die.

So he stops and takes a few hours to make sure that Gotham knows he is back?

Nevermind the fact that he saved Gordon and then immediately saved Blake. I don't know where they where in relation to each other, but I know it would have taken some time to board the Bat and fly over there.

8) Lame argument.

I am guessing that if that is your only response, you don't know what to say to it.

We perform background checks on 18 year-olds at the theater here. Why in the world wouldn't Bruce Wayne do background checks on the people he employs?

They bring up a very valid point though, if she is indeed able to adopt fake identities and all that jazz, can't she just make a new life for her? Isn't that in fact a clean slate?

9) Bane had 5 months till the explosion. He left Gotham to tear itself apart, why a journey away would have been an issue at all.

This one didn't bother me, it's just weird that he would leave is all. His cronies could have done that job for him.

10) How does Bruce gets back to Gotham? It's not a big deal from him, the agents could sneak in, surely the guy who spent years in different countries without money can deal with a situation like that. If someone wants a scene to show how Bruce got back to Gotham that person knows nothing about filomkaking. Do we really need to see how Hulk got back to NY?

They don't want a scene showing us how he got back to Gotham, but the movie has spent so much time taking everything away from Bruce that it really is a tough pill to swallow that he was able to get from India to Gotham with no money, passport, ID, or anything at all.

We do have a moment of reference to how he got back to the states after spending 7 years abroad remember? Alfred picked him up with a jet.

All they had to do was say he called in a favor from someone. It would be that simple.

Also, we know how Hulk(funny, his name is Bruce also) got back to NY, he rode a bike.

11) It's Bane's prison, it's been said in the film. Pay attention.

I saw it twice and I swear I don't remember them calling it Bane's prison. Ra's attacked the prison (with The League I guess), but I don't remember them saying anything after that. I guess Ra's let him keep the prison for his own use? If that is the case, then why leave anyone in there that could help Bruce? Why leave any chance that he could escape?

12) Actualyl, no. Keep going with your BS.

You are getting really frustrated now, your spelling is getting worse! I am not even sure what you are saying no to here.

13) Yep, they acted a bit dumb. First argument that is valid. Again, it's not a plot hole.

They might not be plot holes per se, but they are mostly all lazy writing.

14) Actually no. The fight between Bane and Batman are amazing, not bloody shaky camara, we can see teh pucnhes. We can hear the punches in the first fight, no music at all.

Another example of you not reading this, they said, "(exception:his fights with Bane, which I thought were appropriately raw and intense)"

15) The ending is plain and simple, if you don't get it, try to inject some IQ to your brain.

They didn't say it was confusing, they just pointed out the fact that there was so much going on, one right after the other.

I personally thought the end was the best part of the movie. I think they shouldn't have included the bit with Alfred seeing him there, I remember thinking to myself that they actually killed him, awesome! Then that was totally destroyed.

But everything else, especially the reveal of Blake taking over was great. That was the only part of the movie that got to me in any way. Probably because Blake was the only real character in the film with the only real arc and it felt earned.

15 theories and only 1 valid point, which isn't a plot hole. Could someone else stand up with a plot hole, because I smell lots of BS here.

These are legitimate criticisms here. You don't agree with them, that's fine, move on and enjoy your movie. The more you stand up to defend it, the shakier the ground is going to get.

[Letsuseournoggin]

What? When we first encounter Bruce Wayne in TDKR his company is more or less toast and therefore he can't provide any benefits for the poor anymore. (Like his parents did.) Makes him look like an idiot.Besides that he completely missed what is going on in Gotham. Because he doesn't care. He more or less has become a ghost that doesn't care for anything. And that stupidity didn't last a year or so but a fucking EIGHT years. All this time he was just whining and hiding it seems.And you actually come to the conclusion this behaviour could create some empathy? Wow.

He's also a guy that gave so much for the city that hunts him down. He also lost a loved one in an attempt to save her life. He is also a guy that has been essentially forced to live a lie for so long. He saved an entire city and countless lives on many occassions, yet is hated. Considering the magnitude of all this, yes. Yes, I think audiences will empathize.

[Adm56]

From what I have heard, seen, and read, I think the consensus is that comic book nerds and movie buffs are pretty divided with this movie, but skewing positive. Still pretty split though. But the average movie goer who has never picked up a comic book or follows movies to the extent online folks do, the consensus is clearly not divided. The overwhelming majority thought positively of it.Fair enough?

I don't agree. Personally I think the movie is fan service for Bat fans and the general public will tend to be bored.

[Letsuseournoggin]

And just a thought, for those that harp on the timeline thing and him returning to Gotham and being able to save Blake right after Gordon... come on guys. It's a superhero movie. You're supposed to be ok with him having the ability to get from one place to another in pretty incredible time, seeing as that person is a comic book figure.Where were the complaints with him being able to disappear from rooftops in midconversation with Gordon in TDK and BB? Do you want a scene from Nolan detailing how Batman moved through the darkness, hid behind the Batsignal Light and then jumped from the roof to the staircase beneath all while Gordon and Dent were conversing and not noticing his departure? Nope. So the same goes for him returning to Gotham. The same goes for him being able to announce his return through the "fire rising" bridge scene and the same goes for his ability to save Gordon on the ice and then Blake in the next cut. Perspective.

[Letsuseournoggin]

I don't agree. Personally I think the movie is fan service for Bat fans and the general public will tend to be bored.

So the overwhelming majority of movie goers thought negatively of it? Hmmmm... really? You sure you aren't basing that on personal opinion and your inner circle of friends who are likely comic book buffs and movie buffs? Poll regular movie goers walking out of a TDKR showing and I'd bet anything the majority walked out with a positive outlook.

[Adm56]

He's also a guy that gave so much for the city that hunts him down. He also lost a loved one in an attempt to save her life. He is also a guy that has been essentially forced to live a lie for so long. He saved an entire city and countless lives on many occassions, yet is hated. Considering the magnitude of all this, yes. Yes, I think audiences will empathize.

That's just it...when do they hunt him down? It's suggested that he's never hunted because he immediately retires due to the Dent Act. So in a way that lessens the impact of the final sequence in TDK (Not quite a 'you need thingies in your blood to be a Jedi' but the same sort of thing). Plus...show don't tell that he's 'hated'. In the Spider-man films (prior to TASM) they show how common New Yorkers feel about Spidey. In the TDKR we see some cops chasing him around and that's it. We never even see a 'common man' in the whole 99% vs the 1% plot that Bane's scheme seems to suggest is coming before it's dropped. So IMO he NEVER BECOMES THE DARK KNIGHT!The fact that he can retire with little to no impact is a weak story beat for me. Am I supposed to give a shit about a quiter Batman that Gotham doesn't even need?Here's how you add some tension and remove some bloat....have Batman actually being the chased Dark Knight at the beginning of the film, cut out the 8 year retirement, have Bane break his back EARLY and then have him 'rise' ONCE from the back injury to defeat Bane. Plenty of room to include Kyle and Blake in that plot. Lose all the convoluted prison crap that only serves to provide an image (the climb) that mirrors one in BB (the well) and have Bane leave Batman for dead somewhere in Gotham. Then you build Kyle and Bruces relationship by having her find him, or have Alfred come back to do so. As it stands it's a bit of stretch to think Bruce and Selina fade off into the sunset together if you take out the 'she has a great ass in that suit' factor. Considering that she lured him into a trap that could have killed him I think showing up to later blast Bane isn't quite enough redemption.

[Adm56]

You can also lose all the time bomb junk. If Gotham needs Batman to begin with and then things get worse under Bane's rule until he can come back from the dead you don't need the bomb. Especially if you remove the Gotham cut off from the world crap. It's lame. Works better in a lot of ways if Bane just takes over the underworld of Gotham but REALLY makes things bad. The whole 'Gotham is cut off from the world for five months' creates too many problems. And yes I know it's from the comics....it's still a fail.There.....some random dipshit on the internet fixed the mighty Nolan's movie and it only took me about 10 minutes or so. DO I get a happy Scooby Doo ending now?

[Adm56]

So the overwhelming majority of movie goers thought negatively of it? Hmmmm... really? You sure you aren't basing that on personal opinion and your inner circle of friends who are likely comic book buffs and movie buffs? Poll regular movie goers walking out of a TDKR showing and I'd bet anything the majority walked out with a positive outlook.

How about we both quit our jobs and stand in front of a theater with a clipboard? Until we do that your guess that 'normal' people like it is as good as mine that 'normals' don't. If this movie has legs I guess that might prove that people are enjoying themselves enough to see it more than once but I don't think that will happen.WoM is a touchy thing. Quote Rotten Tomatoes all you want, but if you read the 'positive reviews' you'll find that a good portion of them are more like 'it did the job...meh'. And the IMDB rating is crap so soon....it will filter down.Either way we'll know what audiences liked more this summer once the final box office totals are in. Scoreboard.

[Killimano3]

And just a thought, for those that harp on the timeline thing and him returning to Gotham and being able to save Blake right after Gordon... come on guys. It's a superhero movie.

I guess that's the problem with trying to have a realistic take on a superhero movie... with movies like The Avengers nobody really cares because it isn't supposed to be realistic it's supposed to be a fun movie about a bunch of superheroes teaming up and saving the world.But as soon as it's made to be specifically realistic every tiny detail that's even just unlikely becomes a target for people who tear apart these things.

[Killimano3]

And the IMDB rating is crap

http://www.imdb.com/chart/topIt's the same as TDK. #10

[Deep Wang]

I guess that's the problem with trying to have a realistic take on a superhero movie... with movies like The Avengers nobody really cares because it isn't supposed to be realistic it's supposed to be a fun movie about a bunch of superheroes teaming up and saving the world.But as soon as it's made to be specifically realistic every tiny detail that's even just unlikely becomes a target for people who tear apart these things.

This.

[Adm56]

http://www.imdb.com/chart/topIt's the same as TDK. #10

Sorry if I wasn't clear....IMDB ratings in general are crap....especially right after the movie comes out. And don't get me started on Cinemascore...it has more to do with how effective the marketing was...it's not a quality metric.

[JackO]

I guess that's the problem with trying to have a realistic take on a superhero movie... with movies like The Avengers nobody really cares because it isn't supposed to be realistic it's supposed to be a fun movie about a bunch of superheroes teaming up and saving the world.But as soon as it's made to be specifically realistic every tiny detail that's even just unlikely becomes a target for people who tear apart these things.

That's pretty dumb since the movie is not "realistic" at all. It is grounded.There is a difference.

[Adm56]

That's pretty dumb since the movie is not "realistic" at all. It is grounded.There is a difference.

That sound you are hearing is hair being split.

[Letsuseournoggin]

You can also lose all the time bomb junk. If Gotham needs Batman to begin with and then things get worse under Bane's rule until he can come back from the dead you don't need the bomb.Especially if you remove the Gotham cut off from the world crap. It's lame. Works better in a lot of ways if Bane just takes over the underworld of Gotham but REALLY makes things bad. The whole 'Gotham is cut off from the world for five months' creates too many problems. And yes I know it's from the comics....it's still a fail.There.....some random dipshit on the internet fixed the mighty Nolan's movie and it only took me about 10 minutes or so. DO I get a happy Scooby Doo ending now?

Nope. Some random dispshit on the internet didn't fix anything. Nothing was broken. Your opinion isn't fact. Sorry to break it to you.

[Letsuseournoggin]

How about we both quit our jobs and stand in front of a theater with a clipboard? Until we do that your guess that 'normal' people like it is as good as mine that 'normals' don't. If this movie has legs I guess that might prove that people are enjoying themselves enough to see it more than once but I don't think that will happen.WoM is a touchy thing. Quote Rotten Tomatoes all you want, but if you read the 'positive reviews' you'll find that a good portion of them are more like 'it did the job...meh'. And the IMDB rating is crap so soon....it will filter down.Either way we'll know what audiences liked more this summer once the final box office totals are in. Scoreboard.

Quit our jobs? Really? Or maybe you can gauge audience reaction as you walk out of the theatre? Maybe you can honestly say that as you walked out of your showing, the overwhelming majority of people were griping or saying meh, but I can honestly say the vibe walking out was pretty positive at all of my showings. Hence, the majority of audience reaction was positive. I can also gauge people's reaction in the real world, here at my job for instance, which was pretty positive. Family as well, again, which was pretty positive. So no, I'll keep my job, thanks. And by the way, the scenario I gave about gauging audience reactions at a theatre.. hypothetical. It's not literal. But since you took it that way, grab your clipboard and let me know how it goes. I'm interested.Quote RT and iMDB all I want? Umm, I didn't. So... Edited July 27, 2012 by Letsuseournoggin

[Adm56]

Scoreboard.

[mattmav45]

What I find hilarious is that apparently we shouldn't take the plot-holes in TA seriously because it doesn't take itself seriously. Talk about double standards.

I liked both films to a certain extent, but I do disagree with this.You can't judge a movie going for a more popcorn, entertainment vibe the same way as a movie going for a more serious, realistic approach. I love that Nolan went with a more serious and real world approach with his vision of Batman, but with that comes a more detailed and critical way of looking at things.Avengers was pure popcorn entertainment, and Batman is trying to be something more. Don't you think, as such, you at least have to judge and view them at least a little differently? Because let's face it, if you judged TDKR as a pure popcorn comic book film, like TA, it is a failure.They both are good in different ways, and should be judged in different ways, IMO. Edited July 27, 2012 by mattmav45

[Gopher]

TDKR is pure popcorn to me. Different tasting popcorn than TA but popcorn nonetheless. And both succeed at what they do.