Avatar: The Way of Water | 16 DEC 2022 | Don't worry guys, critics like it

[incognitoo]

42 minutes ago, Telemachos said:

Let's assume they start production in January. Four to six months of production should be plenty (for all the sequels), and then you have a year-and-a-half for post, which seems reasonable. In all likelihood, it'll be more like a month or so of production, a hiatus, another month or so well down the line (pickups, reshoots, additional material), and so on, with post essentially starting around the same time production kicks off.

 

For example, the first AVATAR started production in April of 2007, but without all the kinks worked out in terms of the technology. Photoreal mo-cap is now a much more mature process.

 

Well, in the end this partly depends on what Cameron is wanting to bring to the screen concerning his actors. If he mainly (or even only) concentrate on the Navii, then he theoretically would not even need the main cast for motion capture besides facial animation; which would indeed let them be able to start production in January without Worthington and Weaver available (as both are busy with other projects at the moment as I understand it). Personally, I'd prefer a mix of Navii and Humans in the movie(s), but if that's not gonna happen I'm down with it.

 

Whole thing stands or falls with Camerons obsession for perfectionism in my opinion nonetheless. If he wants his actors to do all the motion capture for their on screen characters themselves, then he may find them not available until into spring (Worthington) or even later (Weaver), but as I said, I'll keep my fingers crossed. That said, we also do not know what new technologies Cameron might put on the table. Something that can lead to other unforseen troubles. At least Titanic and Avatar teached us already that he will push his movies to a later date if necessary - and both those had extensive pre-productions (and used new technologies) as well. Therefore, while understanding and recognizing your arguments, I still stand a wee bit sceptical. But with fingers crossed.

[Dementeleus]

2 minutes ago, incognitoo said:

 

Well, in the end this partly depends on what Cameron is wanting to bring to the screen concerning his actors. If he mainly (or even only) concentrate on the Navii, then he theoretically would not even need the main cast for motion capture besides facial animation; which would indeed let them be able to start production in January without Worthington and Weaver available (as both are busy with other projects at the moment as I understand it). Personally, I'd prefer a mix of Navii and Humans in the movie(s), but if that's not gonna happen I'm down with it.

 

He most definitely will want to use his primary cast for mo-cap. The way those rigs are set up, they capture facial expressions and the audio performance with head-cams, as well as data capture for the whole body. So if you don't use your primary cast for it, you're wasting a lot of time and resources (because you'd have to do it again).

[incognitoo]

3 minutes ago, Telemachos said:

 

He most definitely will want to use his primary cast for mo-cap. The way those rigs are set up, they capture facial expressions and the audio performance with head-cams, as well as data capture for the whole body. So if you don't use your primary cast for it, you're wasting a lot of time and resources (because you'd have to do it again).

 

Ah, I see. I only am aware of the status quo in video games motion capture procedures a few years ago and what I read it was recorded separately by then. Action scenes played by stuntmen were motion captured and afterwards the facial expressions of the actual actors were edited in. Guess this technology has moved on since then.

[Dementeleus]

2 minutes ago, incognitoo said:

 

Ah, I see. I only am aware of the status quo in video games motion capture procedures a few years ago and what I read it was recorded separately by then. Action scenes played by stuntmen were motion captured and afterwards the facial expressions of the actual actors were edited in. Guess this technology has moved on since then.

 

Yeah, Cameron's system does it all at once. That way the editors can assemble a radio cut from the vocal performances and use that as a baseline to start building scenes. Once a scene or sequence is locked (or, more accurately, reasonably close), then they do a separate pass to generate camera angles/moves from the existing performance capture data.

 

Here's a basic look at the head-rig the actors wear. That little pod near their mouths isn't a mic, it's a wide-angle camera to capture all the facial muscles/eye movements.

 

 

 

[AniNate]

The movie won't be completely NaVi. There's still Norm, Max, and everyone else involved with the Avatar program on Pandora. Plus the ending left it ambiguous whether or not Jake was leaving his human body for good, and I think it would be a more interesting story if he could still go back to it

[IronJimbo]

9 minutes ago, tribefan695 said:

The movie won't be completely NaVi. There's still Norm, Max, and everyone else involved with the Avatar program still on Pandora. Plus the ending left it ambiguous whether or not Jake was leaving his human body for good, and I think it would be a more interesting story if he could still go back to it

 

Isn't the base still intact?

 

Will Jake and NeyNey even be the main characters? They're both comfirmed but the film could potentially be 20 years into the future and their child Go'han is the main character.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by IronJimbo

[BadAtGender]

On 1/2/2016 at 11:55 AM, Elessar said:

As much as i admire Cameron, what does he see in Rodrigez? Just look at his filmography! 

 

Much like Cameron, Rodriguez has an intense work ethic and he involves himself heavily in all areas of production. So Cameron probably sees some kinship there. Remember that the things that producers look for in directors aren't the same things that audiences are going to look for. The skills at doing the work are going to take some high importance. 

So this could be a case of Cameron wanting someone who's willing to put in the work to learn the technology required and knows how to run a film set. Rodriguez seems like he'd be able to check both those boxes with ease.

 

Thus far, Rodriguez hasn't had a chance to really have a go at a big budget effort. His highest budget is, I think, Sin City 2 at $65m. Most everything else is probably below $40m. Cameron might like the idea of seeing what he can do with a bit more to play with. This could especially be true if Battle Angel is going to use similar mocap tech as Avatar. Call it an experiment to see how other directors use the same tools. (And noting that said tools are going to be far more refined than they were for Avatar. Not so many kinks to iron out.)
 

 

[Elessar]

Doesn't change the fact that Rodriguez has done nothing noteworthy in his career. imho.

 

What's all his work ethics good for if the movie turns out average?

Edited January 4, 2016 by Elessar

[IronJimbo]

3 minutes ago, Elessar said:

Doesn't change the fact that Rodriguez has done nothing noteworthy in his career. imho.

 

Agreed, not sure if it's his scripts/settings that are bad or his directing. Perhaps he is purely technical and his stories are bad part, I haven't watched any of his films in a while though.

 

 

[Dementeleus]

14 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

 

Isn't the base still intact?

 

Will Jake and NeyNey even be the main characters? They're both comfirmed but the film could potentially be 20 years into the future and their child Go'han is the main character.

 

 

 

If we assume that humans are the antagonists (certainly not guaranteed but seems like a decent assumption), figures that at least 10-12 years will have passed. 

[BadAtGender]

1 minute ago, Elessar said:

Doesn't change the fact that Rodriguez has done nothing noteworthy in his career. imho.

 

If you're talking about films that have stuck in public conscious, sure. But that's not the only measure. Rodriguez has pretty much built his own little cottage industry down in Texas, which has been able sustain production on his own films for 20 years. He's been someone who's creatively been able to do what he's wanted, when he's wanted. That's kind of amazing and noteworthy.

 

As far as Cameron's choice, there's also the fact that Rodriguez is an acknowledged huge fan of Frank Miller's work, which could have played a part. Miller is one of the major inspirations for Yukito Kishiro. The Battle Angel side story Ashen Victor is pretty much Kishiro doing an entire comic in Miller's style.

[IronJimbo]

Just now, Telemachos said:

 

If we assume that humans are the antagonists (certainly not guaranteed but seems like a decent assumption), figures that at least 10-12 years will have passed. 

 

That is very true. I've got a feeling it's going to be tribal (Na'Vi only). If I have one prediction I'm certain of it's that Jim will have one underwater sequence that will blow everyone away, it will be visually amazing.

Also Pandora is a moon that orbits the planet Polyphemus which a Gas Gaint with 14 moons total. Perhaps some more of the moons have life on them, probably not mentioned in Avatar 2 though.

[Elessar]

If you're talking about films that have stuck in public conscious, sure. But that's not the only measure. Rodriguez has pretty much built his own little cottage industry down in Texas, which has been able sustain production on his own films for 20 years. He's been someone who's creatively been able to do what he's wanted, when he's wanted. That's kind of amazing and noteworthy.

 

As far as Cameron's choice, there's also the fact that Rodriguez is an acknowledged huge fan of Frank Miller's work, which could have played a part. Miller is one of the major inspirations for Yukito Kishiro. The Battle Angel side story Ashen Victor is pretty much Kishiro doing an entire comic in Miller's style.

 

That's all well and good but at the end of the day what counts is the product on the screen. I don't think he has it in him to make a true epic.

 

Oh, well, time will tell...

Edited January 4, 2016 by Elessar

[incognitoo]

1 hour ago, Telemachos said:

 

Yeah, Cameron's system does it all at once. That way the editors can assemble a radio cut from the vocal performances and use that as a baseline to start building scenes. Once a scene or sequence is locked (or, more accurately, reasonably close), then they do a separate pass to generate camera angles/moves from the existing performance capture data.

 

Here's a basic look at the head-rig the actors wear. That little pod near their mouths isn't a mic, it's a wide-angle camera to capture all the facial muscles/eye movements.

 

 

 

 

Geez, Tele! Please warn me beforehand next time. Upon seeing Worthington's adorable set of Navii ears, I'll now have to clean my keyboard. (and a new shirt would be in order too I guess)

[BadAtGender]

http://io9.gizmodo.com/avatar-is-a-much-better-movie-than-you-remember-1750993089

 

[AniNate]

Just now, Telemachos said:

 

If we assume that humans are the antagonists (certainly not guaranteed but seems like a decent assumption), figures that at least 10-12 years will have passed. 

 

That is very true. I've got a feeling it's going to be tribal (Na'Vi only). If I have one prediction I'm certain of it's that Jim will have one underwater sequence that will blow everyone away, it will be visually amazing.

Also Pandora is a moon that orbits the planet Polyphemus which a Gas Gaint with 14 moons total. Perhaps some more of the moons have life on them, probably not mentioned in Avatar 2 though.

Landau said they ditched that idea. Everything's going to be on Pandora.

I think part of the conflict will be with the Avatar people, now cut off from the rest of humanity and experiencing their own identity crises. Some will likely regret not leaving with the rest of RDA

[IronJimbo]

 

4 minutes ago, tribefan695 said:

Landau said they ditched that idea. Everything's going to be on Pandora.

I think part of the conflict will be with the Avatar people, now cut off from the rest of humanity and experiencing their own identity crises. Some will likely regret not leaving with the rest of RDA

 

I never even knew they had even said they were going to do that, I was just speculating from knowing it's one of 14 moons.

 

 

 

 

[BadAtGender]

8 minutes ago, Elessar said:

 

That's all well and good but at the end of the day what counts is the product on the screen. I don't think he has it in him to make a true epic.

 

Oh, well, time will tell...

 

What defines a "true epic"?

 

Arguably, he's been smart enough to realize the limitations of the tools he's had available.

 

If you know your budget is only going to be $30m, then you'll probably not try to make the next High Fantasy film with a climax battle that requires hundreds of extras. You'll figure out what sort of stories you can do within that budget and go from there.

[IronJimbo]

I've got some really out there ideas for the Avatar sequels, here is one.

 

What if the Na'Vi are the descendants of a super technological advanced race and Eywa was their final creation.

 

I've got a feeling that Eywa is a creation not an evolution.

[Cochofles]

I disagree about RR not doing anything worthy.  I'd say that El Mariachi is a well-crafted (especially for its budget) little film, Spy Kids is an immensely enjoyable and fun crowd pleaser that deservedly became his biggest box office hit, and From Dusk Till Dawn is one of the best attempts at a modern-day film with a pulpy, B-film sensibility. Also, I'd argue that Salma Hayek's snake dance in that film became an iconic cinema image (for those who say that none of his movies have had anything that lingers in the public consciousness).

 

Just my opinion.