Fanboy Wars Thread: Personal Attacks not allowed | With Digital Fur Technology

[RandomCat]

1 minute ago, 75live said:

 

and here's my response to that hot take which is represented on the right side of this gif

 

 

 

 

 

Sums up perfectly one of my many problems with the comic.

[75Live]

2 minutes ago, robertman2 said:

That's a hell of a mess.

 

And a lot of blue

 

yeah shame for whoever has to clean up that mess  

 

 

2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

 

Sums up perfectly one of my many problems with the comic.

 

obviously I was kidding around a bit but I do like Watchmen, but I get why it's not for everyone.  

 

Maybe it's not for this thread, but I am curious what you don't like about it.  I'm always curious about the other side of things

[RandomCat]

1 minute ago, 75live said:

 

obviously I was kidding around a bit but I do like Watchmen, but I get why it's not for everyone.  

 

Maybe it's not for this thread, but I am curious what you don't like about it.  I'm always curious about the other side of things

 

Part of it is that a lot of people treat it as revolutionary. (And it certainly is, for comics) I grew up reading sci-fi stories from the 50s that had the exact same themes and messages, and when I finally read Watchmen it felt like a dull retread of these previous ideas. I also felt it's core message was hurt by the use of Rorschach as that mouthpiece for the message. To me it hurt the message of the story. I'm also not really a believer in the core ideals of the comic, so that pushes me away. Add in the out right negative effect it had on the comics industry as a whole that has lead to this gritty "realism" of the nineties and of DC in recent years.

 

Add in smaller nit-picks like the pirate story which felt like unneeded fat that only provided interesting world building. I've read that it shows parallels and even meta commentary as the story, but it felt like a neat idea of world building took too far. Add in Nixon being president long after legally able to be always bothered me in the story.

[75Live]

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

 

Part of it is that a lot of people treat it as revolutionary. (And it certainly is, for comics) I grew up reading sci-fi stories from the 50s that had the exact same themes and messages, and when I finally read Watchmen it felt like a dull retread of these previous ideas. I also felt it's core message was hurt by the use of Rorschach as that mouthpiece for the message. To me it hurt the message of the story. I'm also not really a believer in the core ideals of the comic, so that pushes me away. Add in the out right negative effect it had on the comics industry as a whole that has lead to this gritty "realism" of the nineties and of DC in recent years.

 

Add in smaller nit-picks like the pirate story which felt like unneeded fat that only provided interesting world building. I've read that it shows parallels and even meta commentary as the story, but it felt like a neat idea of world building took too far. Add in Nixon being president long after legally able to be always bothered me in the story.

 

interesting.  I don't disagree that the ideas and all had been done before.  It was more revolutionary that it happened in comic form because even then, as you probably already know, comics were still looked down upon as being just cheap kiddy stuff.  This helped to change that.  Yes I liked where some of the comics went after that due to the Watchmen, but I totally get why some don't like the turn in the industry.  It gave us some great comics but yes, like everything else, it did kind of go to the extreme and since everyone plays copycat, it was harder to find more "lighter fare" comics again.

 

I actually like some of the things you didn't prefer, but I get where you are coming from  

[RandomCat]

2 minutes ago, 75live said:

 

interesting.  I don't disagree that the ideas and all had been done before.  It was more revolutionary that it happened in comic form because even then, as you probably already know, comics were still looked down upon as being just cheap kiddy stuff.  This helped to change that.  Yes I liked where some of the comics went after that due to the Watchmen, but I totally get why some don't like the turn in the industry.  It gave us some great comics but yes, like everything else, it did kind of go to the extreme and since everyone plays copycat, it was harder to find more "lighter fare" comics again.

 

I actually like some of the things you didn't prefer, but I get where you are coming from  

 

I saw a lot of people who love Watchmen act like this was a unique story that was never told before. And maybe for them it was, but it left me feeling cold. I know good stuff came out of it, certainly characters like Batman have certainly benefited from going down a darker more brooding path. But every character seemed to go down to the cold gritty realism of the late 80s/90s even if it didn't make any sense. And now I see it happening again, and I see people praising the needless darkening of everything as a sign of depth and complexity.

 

I'm also putting a lot of this unduly on Watchmen's shoulders, I'll admit that, but since the book as only ok for me, and so many people use it as a template for their heroes being "real" and he must deconstruct them because that's "real" annoys the shit out of me. I long ago hated when authors would say things like "Well, real life doesn't give you clean endings". I'm reading a story, not a biography, this isn't real life.

 

Sorry, this is a rant that's spun off into my philosophy of story telling.  

 

Cleaning this up. I don't hate realism, I hate when realism is used as an excuse. I also hate when dark/gritty is viewed as default in realism.

 

Still think Watchmen is nothing special, but I know I'm an outsider in this belief, certainly as a comic reader. (I also hate Rorschach.)

[75Live]

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

 

I saw a lot of people who love Watchmen act like this was a unique story that was never told before. And maybe for them it was, but it left me feeling cold. I know good stuff came out of it, certainly characters like Batman have certainly benefited from going down a darker more brooding path. But every character seemed to go down to the cold gritty realism of the late 80s/90s even if it didn't make any sense. And now I see it happening again, and I see people praising the needless darkening of everything as a sign of depth and complexity.

 

I'm also putting a lot of this unduly on Watchmen's shoulders, I'll admit that, but since the book as only ok for me, and so many people use it as a template for their heroes being "real" and he must deconstruct them because that's "real" annoys the shit out of me. I long ago hated when authors would say things like "Well, real life doesn't give you clean endings". I'm reading a story, not a biography, this isn't real life.

 

Sorry, this is a rant that's spun off into my philosophy of story telling.  

 

Cleaning this up. I don't hate realism, I hate when realism is used as an excuse. I also hate when dark/gritty is viewed as default in realism.

 

Still think Watchmen is nothing special, but I know I'm an outsider in this belief, certainly as a comic reader. (I also hate Rorschach.)

 

 

yeah see I don't mind dark/gritty.  I need the variety.  I'm not saying i prefer it over the lighthearted stuff, I just need the balance which is why I like both.

 

the bolded part explains a lot too   I liked the character.  Not all of his views since some were pretty bad, but overall, he's what kept the story together which is why I felt it was best he was the one telling it.  But again, I see why he doesn't work for everyone.

 

cool conversation about all this though  

[RandomCat]

Just now, 75live said:

 

 

yeah see I don't mind dark/gritty.  I need the variety.  I'm not saying i prefer it over the lighthearted stuff, I just need the balance which is why I like both.

 

the bolded part explains a lot too   I liked the character.  Not all of his views since some were pretty bad, but overall, he's what kept the story together which is why I felt it was best he was the one telling it.  But again, I see why he doesn't work for everyone.

 

cool conversation about all this though  

 

I don't hate dark/gritty. I hate when people view it as "realistic". I like it where it's appropriate, it's appropriate as the default for Batman. I don't think it's appropriate for the default of Superman. Not that you can't have light/fluffy Batman, or dark brooding Superman and good stories can't be told with either, but neither is a good default state for their character and what they stand for. Variety is great, but you can't just shove a square peg into that round hole. (Like I view people like Snyder try to do) I'd be fine with a darker DCEU if I felt that they actually treated the characters better. (To throw that out and about)

 

As a character Rorschach is very interesting and complex that is certainly a character that deserves to exist, and if it wasn't for the fact that he carries the message of the book on his shoulders I'd like him a lot more. He's made to be intensely unlikeable and in some ways we aren't meant to root for him, but by having him as your mouth piece is counter productive (for me.) I have the same problems with South Park/Cartman.

 

I can talk in circles about nothing for a long time, so you shouldn't have gotten me started.

[75Live]

Just now, RandomJC said:

 

I don't hate dark/gritty. I hate when people view it as "realistic". I like it where it's appropriate, it's appropriate as the default for Batman. I don't think it's appropriate for the default of Superman. Not that you can't have light/fluffy Batman, or dark brooding Superman and good stories can't be told with either, but neither is a good default state for their character and what they stand for. Variety is great, but you can't just shove a square peg into that round hole. (Like I view people like Snyder try to do) I'd be fine with a darker DCEU if I felt that they actually treated the characters better. (To throw that out and about)

 

As a character Rorschach is very interesting and complex that is certainly a character that deserves to exist, and if it wasn't for the fact that he carries the message of the book on his shoulders I'd like him a lot more. He's made to be intensely unlikeable and in some ways we aren't meant to root for him, but by having him as your mouth piece is counter productive (for me.) I have the same problems with South Park/Cartman.

 

I can talk in circles about nothing for a long time, so you shouldn't have gotten me started.

 

lol  but I do get what you mean.  I could talk about all this all day too so since we basically agree where each other are coming from, this may be a good place to end all this before we bore the other posters  

 

[RandomCat]

Just now, 75live said:

 

lol  but I do get what you mean.  I could talk about all this all day too so since we basically agree where each other are coming from, this may be a good place to end all this before we bore the other posters  

 

 

It's better than 90% of this thread.  

[75Live]

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

 

It's better than 90% of this thread.  

 

well that part i 100% agree with too  lol 

 

and dang out of likes already

Edited March 29, 2017 by 75live

[RandomCat]

1 minute ago, 75live said:

 

well that part i 100% agree with too  lol 

 

and dang out of likes already

[75Live]

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

 

yeah one day I will actually get more than the free account once I can turn oxygen into gold like Dr. Manhattan  

[robertman2]

Speaking of Rorschach, I hope the Question gets into the DCEU, especially if he's like his Justice League Unlimited version

[RandomCat]

1 minute ago, robertman2 said:

Speaking of Rorschach, I hope the Question gets into the DCEU, especially if he's like his Justice League Unlimited version

 

We will never see the Question. And if we do, we'll get New 52 Question where he's a pseudo-god.

[Eevin]

The original Watchmen comic is a masterpiece, and one that was designed for the express purpose of showcasing how comics could work as a form of storytelling. Adapting Watchmen into a movie defeated the entire purpose of the comic's existence (not to mention it wasn't very good). 

[ChipDerby]

Watchmen the comic, and Watchmen the film, are brilliant.

[Harpospoke]

5 hours ago, 75live said:

 

lol  but I do get what you mean.  I could talk about all this all day too so since we basically agree where each other are coming from, this may be a good place to end all this before we bore the other posters  

 

 

Not boring to me.   I enjoyed reading what both of you had to say.   I agreed with both of you on certain points.

 

Kinda the reason I love Watchmen in the first place.   My brother and I walked out of the theater and were talking about the morals of the movie all the way home.  There were reasons to agree with all sides.

[rukaio101]

7 hours ago, RandomJC said:

 

I saw a lot of people who love Watchmen act like this was a unique story that was never told before.

I think the key words you're missing here is 'this was a unique story that was never told before for superhero comics'. Yeah, I'm certain many of the themes and ideas in Watchmen had been explored before in Sci-Fi fiction, but Sci-Fi fiction has had a long history of exploring complex philosophical ideas. Superhero comics hadn't (in large part thanks to the whole Comics Code kerfuffle leading to comics being made 'kid friendly' for a number of years). Watchmen was one of the first mainstream comic book hits to really bring those sorts of ideas and successfully transfer them to the superhero genre. And that opened the gates for a lot more other darker and more philosophical takes on the genre.

 

Also, it's hard to claim that Watchmen's success was only a result of those themes lifted from sci-fi literary fiction, because that misses one of the most important aspects of a comic book. The art. Watchmen would not be the same story it was without Dave Gibbons' art. There's a lot of hidden meaning and subtle techniques and visual storytelling in there which is often overlooked. Literary fiction does not have that same visual element. And even if it did, there's still a lot of difference in thematic meaning that will automatically come from transferring ideas across different genres. Take, for example, Dr Manhattan. The idea of Ubermensch or perfect human has been explored plenty of times across Sci-Fi. However, when you put it into the context of superheroes, there's instantly a different meaning. Because when you think of an all-powerful Ubermensch who helps people, your mind automatically goes to a certain boyscout in blue tights, correct? Thus Dr Manhattan acts as both an exploration of the Ubermensch and a commentary on the character of Superman, a being so ridiculously above humanity, and how he affects the world. As a result, the theme has added depth and meaning that is only really applicable to the superhero genre. Similarly, Rorschach (who I think you (like many others) are completely misinterpreting in story, by assuming his worldview was being portrayed as 'correct') is a reflection of the darker sides of street vigilantes like Batman, being effectively a violent, anti-social hobo in a mask who's clearly mentally ill. 

 

Now, not to say that Watchmen is necessarily a perfect story. Like you, I wasn't all that fond of the pirate stuff and there are definitely flaws to be found. And it's fine to dislike it for those flaws. And ss for wider effects on the industry, I will agree that lot of dark and edgy crap came out due to a) a massive misunderstanding of Watchmen's themes and b ) an attempt to replicate its critical success. And that was bad. But I do think a lot of good came out of it as well. It made comics more likely to be taken seriously as an art form. It opened the doors for riskier and more out-there takes on the superhero genre. Many classics of the genre probably in some way owe thanks to that story. Yeah, it inspired a lot of shit, but you can't just ignore the good it inspired too. 

 

 

 

 

(Also, the film was alright-ish. It was slavishly loyalty to the source material, which acted as both its biggest strength (due to the quality inherent in said source material) and biggest weakness (because what works for a comic does not always work for a film). Would've preferred to see Terry Gilliam's take, to be honest.)

[Napoleon]

On 3/25/2017 at 1:09 AM, YourMother said:

This was probably Synder's best movie.

It's my least favorite Snyder movie. The story is too familiar. There's a lot of animated movies that recycle the same script That's why I rarely like animated movies (And also my problem with the MCU).

[YM!]

4 minutes ago, Napoleon said:

It's my least favorite Snyder movie. The story is too familiar. There's a lot of animated movies that recycle the same script That's why I rarely like animated movies (And also my problem with the MCU).

One could say the same with DCEU and superhero movies in general. However I don't think Snyder is a bad director he just needs good writers imo. At the same time, I respect your opinion.

Edited March 29, 2017 by YourMother