The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[John Marston]

Relying so much on love for older characters shows Marvel’s new characters aren’t clicking. Period

[DInky]

2 minutes ago, John Marston said:

Relying so much on love for older characters shows Marvel’s new characters aren’t clicking. Period

 

As has been pointed out already, part of the reason these new characters haven't clicked with the audience is that Marvel hasn't made an effort to make them click. New characters are introduced in a movie or a TV show and then they disappear for 3-5 years.

[Valonqar]

13 minutes ago, John Marston said:

Relying so much on love for older characters shows Marvel’s new characters aren’t clicking. Period

 

9 minutes ago, DInky said:

 

As has been pointed out already, part of the reason these new characters haven't clicked with the audience is that Marvel hasn't made an effort to make them click. New characters are introduced in a movie or a TV show and then they disappear for 3-5 years.

 

Not only that, though being introduced in a freakin show does devalue a character, but most of them are new version of old better beloved character. Why would anyone care for She Hulk if there's better already loved much more likable and relatable Hulk? Why would anyone care for Iron Heart if they can just watch iconic Iron Man in his movies and Avengers? Same goes for New Cap, New Thor, New CM, New Doctor Strange, new Ant Man/Wasp/Whatever She Is, New BP, New Hawkeye, New...you get the idea. OGs and characters like GOTG, Wanda, Strange, Spidey, BP, etc were nobody's New. They stood on their own. Now 90% of the cast doesn't stand on its own and those who are supposed to are MIA (see Shang Chi if you can but you can't cause he's gone poof). 

[TommyOliver]

4 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

 

 

Not only that, though being introduced in a freakin show does devalue a character, but most of them are new version of old better beloved character. Why would anyone care for She Hulk if there's better already loved much more likable and relatable Hulk? Why would anyone care for Iron Heart if they can just watch iconic Iron Man in his movies and Avengers? Same goes for New Cap, New Thor, New CM, New Doctor Strange, new Ant Man/Wasp/Whatever She Is, New BP, New Hawkeye, New...you get the idea. OGs and characters like GOTG, Wanda, Strange, Spidey, BP, etc were nobody's New. They stood on their own. Now 90% of the cast doesn't stand on its own and those who are supposed to are MIA (see Shang Chi if you can but you can't cause he's gone poof). 

I agree with everything you said, but we all know why Marvel did this. They don't trust new characters that are women, ethnically diverse, etc... to garner enough of an audience to justify their existence. They want to have their cake and eat it too as far as using established "mantles" with new faces.

[DInky]

1 minute ago, TommyOliver said:

I agree with everything you said, but we all know why Marvel did this. They don't trust new characters that are women, ethnically diverse, etc... to garner enough of an audience to justify their existence. They want to have their cake and eat it too as far as using established "mantles" with new faces.

 

So would you have Marvel come up with completely new female characters for the movies? Because outside the X-Men, Marvel's most popular female heroes are legacy characters. And there's nothing wrong with that,

[Valencia]

2 minutes ago, TommyOliver said:

I agree with everything you said, but we all know why Marvel did this. They don't trust new characters that are women, ethnically diverse, etc... to garner enough of an audience to justify their existence. They want to have their cake and eat it too as far as using established "mantles" with new faces.

Which is funny cause this is what they did for the comics and it didn’t work there either.

 

So why would they try and repeat it in the first place ?

[ZeroHour]

If this movie isn’t a Morbius level disaster and somewhere in the “it’s fine” sphere instead, then Disney really miscalculated by treating it like it was. A film likely to get Dark World or L&T reception should still have social reactions and reviews come out on a normal schedule. Acting like you’re trying to hide a dumpster fire is way worse than some lukewarm tweets. 

[Kon]

8 minutes ago, Valencia said:

Which is funny cause this is what they did for the comics and it didn’t work there either.

 

So why would they try and repeat it in the first place ?

 

I guess the MCU expected to have more luck with a bigger and more diverse audience.

 

Superhero comics has a pretty limited audience (mostly white adult men), since the comic market is somewhat inaccessible to new audiences.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Kon

[Zakiyyah6]

The characters being legacy characters isn't the problem. Miles Morales popularity proves that. Movie Captain Marvel isn't a legacy character and she hasn't clicked with audiences either. Marvel's problem is that they have lost sight of why they are successful. They have lost sight of their character first mission statement. You saw it in Ms Marvel. First few episodes are good then last batch ruined the show by being mired in world building shit. The likable American Teen becomes a Superhero premise was thrown in the trash. The world building is everything now, to the point it hinders the character work. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Zakiyyah6

[TommyOliver]

1 minute ago, DInky said:

 

So would you have Marvel come up with completely new female characters for the movies? Because outside the X-Men, Marvel's most popular female heroes are legacy characters. And there's nothing wrong with that,

I would keep Kate Bishop, Ms. Marvel (who are both legacies), and Valkyrie. I would completely cut Iron-Heart, Female Thor, and Ant-Man's daughter. She-Hulk needs to be totally reworked, Shuri ideally passes the Black Panther mantle to her nephew, Sam Wilson stays Falcon, Rhodey carries on Tony's legacy as War Machine. These are just what I can think of off the top of my head, but we have like, a zillion characters now.

[John Marston]

13 minutes ago, ZeroHour said:

If this movie isn’t a Morbius level disaster and somewhere in the “it’s fine” sphere instead, then Disney really miscalculated by treating it like it was. A film likely to get Dark World or L&T reception should still have social reactions and reviews come out on a normal schedule. Acting like you’re trying to hide a dumpster fire is way worse than some lukewarm tweets. 

 

 

if the movie gets “well this sucked but its “fun” type reviews (which is how Love and Thunder managed to eke out a fresh) I don’t think that will

be enough to move the needle 

[ZeroHour]

1 minute ago, John Marston said:

 

 

if the movie gets “well this sucked but its “fun” type reviews (which is how Love and Thunder managed to eke out a fresh) I don’t think that will

be enough to move the needle 

I don’t think it moves the needle (certainly not this close to release now), but I think it does less harm compared to letting people assume you’re sitting on something unwatchable. 

[SpiderByte]

I mean let's not pretend there is not a 100 percent chance that Disney writes this off as a strike casualty, at least publicly. Which I think is a factor: they played chicken and thought the SAG strike would end before the release date and they were very, very wrong.

Edited November 7, 2023 by SpiderByte

[Valonqar]

3 minutes ago, John Marston said:

 

 

if the movie gets “well this sucked but its “fun” type reviews (which is how Love and Thunder managed to eke out a fresh) I don’t think that will

be enough to move the needle 

 

Yep it's facing THG prequel and Thanksgiving a week later that will siphon female audience. Then families will watch Wish a week after and men Napoleon and there's Holdovers also opening wide and having crowdpleaser buzz from festivals. I don't see how those mythical amazing legs are supposed to develop thanks to "it sucks but it's fun buzz" in this competition. 

[Mojoguy]

11 minutes ago, John Marston said:

 

 

if the movie gets “well this sucked but its “fun” type reviews (which is how Love and Thunder managed to eke out a fresh) I don’t think that will

be enough to move the needle 

Quantumania biggest crime was being boring as hell and the terrible CGI. This was reflected in the weak legs.

 

Marvels should have decent CGI at least, most of it looking like just spaceships and space battles.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Mojoguy

[SpiderByte]

Idk if Napoleon and this really share that much of the same audience. Hunger Games is the bigger competition, especially since they have a waiver.

[Valencia]

23 minutes ago, ZeroHour said:

If this movie isn’t a Morbius level disaster and somewhere in the “it’s fine” sphere instead, then Disney really miscalculated by treating it like it was. A film likely to get Dark World or L&T reception should still have social reactions and reviews come out on a normal schedule. Acting like you’re trying to hide a dumpster fire is way worse than some lukewarm tweets. 

Can’t really blame them given the presales are pointing to a Morbius level disaster opening weekend gross regardless of quality.

20 minutes ago, Zakiyyah6 said:

The characters being legacy characters isn't the problem. Miles Morales popularity proves that. Movie Captain Marvel isn't a legacy character and she hasn't clicked with audiences either. Marvel's problem is that they have lost sight of why they are successful. They have lost sight of their character first mission statement. You saw it in Ms Marvel. First few episodes are good then last batch ruined the show by being mired in world building shit. The likable American Teen becomes a Superhero premise was thrown in the trash. The world building is everything now, to the point it hinders the character work. 

Peter is still physically present in all the Miles stuff and plays a role.
 

Iron Heart, Shuri Panther, Sam Cap, etc. are just straight replacing the originals cause they’re dead.

 

People don’t like that.

 

 

[Valonqar]

1 minute ago, SpiderByte said:

Idk if Napoleon and this really share that much of the same audience. Hunger Games is the bigger competition, especially since they have a waiver.

 

They don't but it will eat some male audience. I don't think TM will be a repeat business thing. It'll make the most in its first week due to fandom rush even if it's as low as it can be and fast turnover (short running time helps here a lot). After that, audience will turn to new movies. 

[Valonqar]

1 minute ago, Valencia said:

Can’t really blame them given the presales are pointing to a Morbius level disaster opening weekend gross regardless of quality.

Peter is still physically present in all the Miles stuff and plays a role.
 

Iron Heart, Shuri Panther, Sam Cap, etc. are just straight replacing the originals cause they’re dead.

 

People don’t like that.

 

 

 

This and also Miles is currently in animated form so there's no feeling of replacement. Different Spidey for different medium. 

[Sckathian]

It’s odd. Hunger Games should be the competition based on how hey market these movies but Marvel clearly has a female problem (shockingly it turns out women have personal lives and relationships) so am not sure it’s the main competition.