Alien: Covenant | 5/19/2017 | Who needs mystery?

[zackzack]

Cameron efficient storytelling, Scott's poetic visuals. This combination is very possible since Cameron does love his contribution to

the Alien world, and he is still vocal about the various Alien & Terminator sequels. Both under Fox contract so why the hell not. 

 

By the power vested in me:

 

Alien V/Prometheus 2

Produced by James Cameron & Ridley Scott

Story by James Cameron

Screenplay by James Cameron & Jonathan Nolan

Cinematography by Darius Khondji

Special FX by Framestore & Weta Digital

Shot with Red Redcode RAW 5K & IMAX MSM 9802 camera

Directed by Ridley Scott

 

I will camp overnight for this.

[The Stingray]

Let's not forget the deleted scene in Alien that really set that up anyway with the cocooning.

 

Deleted scenes are not canon though.

 

What do you mean?

 

Prometheus demystifies that mysterious cargo by making the Alien we came to know the result of rat lab experiences made by the space jockeys to be carried around like cerberus, worship or not. It also demystifies the space jockey itself and sorry Giger didn't design the space jockey to be an astronaut costume for an humanoid giant bodybuilder hiding underneath, it was the creature itself melting with its seat so you couldn't distinguish the otherwordly creature from his gears/equipment that Scott totally deprived of its original concept.

 

Yeah, I was really not a fan of this, and according to the Furious Gods documentary some crew members were skeptical towards it as well.

[Gazz]

What do you mean?

 

I mean you keep talking about the alien being experimented on as being a great demystification of the species when in Alien it's first introduced to us Space-Jockey cargo and not the god-like being it becomes. I could easily write a piece about how the Alien from the first film is stripped of it's power because it's first seen as the cargo of an alien species' space-truck, but i know that would be disingenuous. 

 

 

Prometheus demystifies that mysterious cargo by making the Alien we came to know the result of rat lab experiences made by the space jockeys.

 

No it doesn't.

 

At no point in Prometheus is the source of the Alien creature revealed. We simply know it's species has been experimented upon and that the creature is quite likely a focus of worship for the Engineers. We also know they cannot be contained, even by such supreme-beings. Pretty much all the same mysteries are still in play by the end of Prometheus, including the ones it sets up (which is a major flaw in my opinion). 

 

I  agree that the Engineers are far removed from their Alien counterparts, but there's still plenty of mystery left in those beings as Prometheus fails to provide answers for most of it's set ups. Why do they worship the aliens? If they have religion on what is it based? What other beings have they created across the gulf of space? Where are they from?

[dashrendar44]

I mean you keep talking about the alien being experimented on as being a great demystification of the species when in Alien it's first introduced to us Space-Jockey cargo and not the god-like being it becomes. I could easily write a piece about how the Alien from the first film is stripped of it's power because it's first seen as the cargo of an alien species' space-truck, but i know that would be disingenuous. 

 

 

 

 

 

No it doesn't.

 

At no point in Prometheus is the source of the Alien creature revealed. We simply know it's species has been experimented upon and that the creature is quite likely a focus of worship for the Engineers. We also know they cannot be contained, even by such supreme-beings. Pretty much all the same mysteries are still in play by the end of Prometheus, including the ones it sets up (which is a major flaw in my opinion). 

 

I  agree that the Engineers are far removed from their Alien counterparts, but there's still plenty of mystery left in those beings as Prometheus fails to provide answers for most of it's set ups. Why do they worship the aliens? If they have religion on what is it based? What other beings have they created across the gulf of space? Where are they from?

 

Sorry but these questions are not worth a movie and are better left unanswered. You say that Prometheus doesn't demystify anything about the Alien (I totally disagree because the whole movie is an Alien prequel no matter how Scott denied, the whole thing is an Alien prequel painfully disguised as something else that is not fulfilling and meaningful nor add any interesting trivia about the original movie at all. Fan fictions are better) but answering those questions is the definition of demystifying. I don't need to know because I don't give a flying fuck where the supreme incarnation of fear comes from, it's an irrational creature whose main fascinating asset remains in the mystery of its origins. As soon as you try to explain its origins, purposes, creators, you just lose the fear alien inspires. Period.

 

In Alien, the fact is that nowhere you got a character telling you straight, this is a cargo, the space jockey is carrying bio-weapons they created for whatever purpose yadda yadda, you just extrapolate it from 30 years of theories. It's left to your imagination. The Alien in this movie can still be a superior lifeform adapting to any kind of environment that the space jockey discovered and seeing how deadly it is, he tries to steal some eggs and freeze them to no avail as it is bound to explode in their face at any moment as an uncontrollable species they didn't create. Space Jockey = Ash.

If you don't understand the difference with Prometheus in which it's laid out to you in the dullest and the most clunky way out of the blue...

Edited June 3, 2014 by dashrendar44

[zackzack]

While bruised Egos clash, our poor Xenomorph ponders its uncertain fate....

 

[Gazz]

I totally disagree because the whole movie is an Alien prequel no matter how Scott denied, the whole thing is an Alien prequel painfully disguised as something else that is not fulfilling and meaningful nor add any interesting trivia about the original movie at all.

 

It's a prequel in the broadest terms (in that it's based before Alien).

 

But Prometheus is really a spin-off of the Alien series as bar turning the Space Jockey into Engineers, the story or characters have no bearing or impact on the events in Alien whatsoever. Nothing changes, very little is answered and the same mysteries remain intact. 

 

 

 

but answering those questions is the definition of demystifying.

 

My point was that Prometheus doesn't answer those questions. I was listing questions that Prometheus leaves completely unanswered. Heck, some of them are questions Prometheus sets up directly, adding but further layers of mystery. 

 

 

 

In Alien, the fact is that nowhere you got a character telling you straight, this is a cargo, the space jockey is carrying bio-weapons yadda yadda, you just extrapolate it from 30 years of theories. It's left to your imagination.

 

It's more than heavily spelt out, as was the desired intention of the writers and filmmakers at the time.

 

 

 

If you don't understand the difference with Prometheus in which it's laid out to you in the dullest and clunky way...

 

I don't disagree that Prometheus has it's criticisms. It has more than its fair share (some of which I have mentioned myself and I agree it's certainly clunky) but you seem to be falling over yourself to make this one. Simply put, at no point does Prometheus make the argument that the creatures as seen in the Alien series are "pets" of the Space Jockey, nor does it provide answers as to the source of those creatures. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Gazz

[dashrendar44]

 

It's more than heavily spelt out, as was the desired intention of the writers and filmmakers at the time.

 

 

No, it's not. There were always theories at best.

 

The need to explain what happens before Alien in prequel(s) is an act of demystification in itself (black goo plot device that creates random things magically, alien included) whether you like it or not just like explaining Darth Vader's origins since his inception is a demystification (midi-chlorians, Anakin being a pouting douche) and a rationalization (momma's dead) of the Evil he represented until his last minute redemption.

 

Prometheus tell us that engineers make bio-weapons with black goo and it can result in the creation of an alien following a ludicrous chain of events that need human people in the process. How does it not tell us Alien origins is the product of the Engineers shenanigans and tied to mankind?! That's right in your face.

Edited June 3, 2014 by dashrendar44

[JohnnyGossamer]

Who's directing this movie?

[RichWS]

Who's directing this movie?

 

Ratner.

[Jessie]

I see the argument here, but let's be honest, if they had any type of real weapon aboard the Nostromo, the alien would have been toast.  It wasn't just scary because of what it was, it was also scary because they had no way to kill it. I love both Alien and Aliens for what they are.  A scary as fuck movie and a fucking great action movie.  Cameron did what so many movies fail to do nowadays, expand on the universe without resorting to copying everything that made the first one successful.

Well said. Alien was set in a space ship with limited crew members on board looking to explore. Aliens was a film about the army basically trying to take back on of their posts, naturally the aliens were going to get fucked up. The only thing that can be argued is how Ripley managed to go Rambo at the end making all the highly trained military look like a bunch of amateurs.

[filmscholar]

Sigorney Weaver came out and said she is interesting in doing "Alien 5" and there's more story to tell.  I personally feel Ripley arc was done after "Alien 3".  Say what you will about Fincher's film, Ripley death was Epic.  Then Joss Weaton decided to mess the story up even more with his "Alien 4" script, lol.  I'm fine with the "Prequel" route Ridley is taking.  

[Gazz]

No, it's not. There were always theories at best.

 

Ridley Scott vocally stated he saw the eggs as being a cargo of the Space Jockey (you can listen to him state as much on the DC commentary and the 1999 DVD commentary). David Giler and Walter Hills first re-write of O'Bannon and Shussett's Alien stripped the creature of it's alien-origins and made it a bio weapon (found in 'urns') on a far away human outpost facility (known as 'the cylinder'). Ridley Scott's first act when jumping on board was to bring back the alien-origins (Space Jockeys/ Spaceships etc) but he kept the eggs as a cargo, due to a need to economise (the original draft had several jaunts to a downed alien spaceship and an alien pyramid).  

 

You can find more here: http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/the-pilot/

 

People have argued some specifics about the set up and they can continue to since Prometheus impacts Alien in no significant way whatsoever for many of the countless reasons I've already mentioned. Tell me, in verifying this great secret that everyone already knew, what has the Alien been stripped of? The exact same mysteries are still in play even now (Why is the Space Jockey towing alien eggs? How did he come to be infected? Who was the target of said eggs? What happened to the creature that hatched from his chest? Where is the rest of the crew? Was there anymore crew? Did the Space Jockey create the alien or was it born of an experiment like a bio-weapon?). The only question that has been explicitly answered by Prometheus is simply 'what did the Space Jockey look like?' since we still know so little about their race whatsoever. 

 

Sure you can continue to argue about how some Darth Vader level of injustice has been done to the aliens, but (and i don't mean offence) in my opinion you've yet to provide a sensible reason as to why? So far you've shown you're not even sure what questions Prometheus does or does not answer. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Gazz

[Ozymandias]

I see the argument here, but let's be honest, if they had any type of real weapon aboard the Nostromo, the alien would have been toast.  It wasn't just scary because of what it was, it was also scary because they had no way to kill it.

 

I love both Alien and Aliens for what they are.  A scary as fuck movie and a fucking great action movie.  Cameron did what so many movies fail to do nowadays, expand on the universe without resorting to copying everything that made the first one successful.  

 

I like Aliens almost has much as Alien, but in some ways I don't see it as a sequel to Alien.  If you really wanna be honest, the Alien in Alien was very smart, and the ones in Aliens jumped in front of machines guns without hesitation.  Also, Aliens turned the Alien into just a species of giant killer space bugs that needed a queen(demystification wink wink) in order to survive or they were fucked.  In Alien, the creature could just morph its victims into eggs, which was a far more disturbing/original concept(I know it was a deleted scene, but it was creepy as fuck and made a dark, twisted, horror movie even better).

[dashrendar44]

Ridley Scott vocally stated he saw the eggs as being a cargo of the Space Jockey (you can listen to him state as much on the DC commentary and the 1999 DVD commentary). David Giler and Walter Hills first re-write of O'Bannon and Shussett's Alien stripped the creature of it's alien-origins and made it a bio weapon (found in 'urns') on a far away human outpost facility (known as 'the cylinder'). Ridley Scott's first act when jumping on board was to bring back the alien-origins (Space Jockeys/ Spaceships etc) but he kept the eggs as a cargo, due to a need to economise (the original draft had several jaunts to a downed alien spaceship and an alien pyramid).  

 

 

 

Ridley Scott is borderline senile and contradicts himself. Just see Blade Runner case.

 

Nowhere in the movie Alien it is stated as clearly as Prometheus. Just because it was a script note or an implied backstory for the creators of the movie, the fact is that it is left for imagination in the actual movie for the audience to put 2+2 elaborating theories unlike Prometheus.

 

Sorry but you don't grasp what demystification means. If you shed light on what was a former mystery, you demystify that mystery defacto.

Edited June 3, 2014 by dashrendar44

[Gazz]

Ridley Scott is borderline senile and contradicts himself. Just see Blade Runner case.

 

You didn't read any of that, did you?

 

Nowhere in the movie Alien it is stated as clearly as Prometheus. Just because it was a script note or an implied backstory for the creators of the movie, the fact is that it is left for imagination in the actual movie for the audience to put 2+2 elaborating theories unlike Prometheus.

 

It wasn't just an implied back story, it was the justification the working writers and director used to justify thier vision.

 

Sorry but you don't grasp what demystification means. If you shed light on what was a former mystery, you demistify that mystery defacto.

 

I understand completely, but since Prometheus asks plenty more questions than it answers (barely anything whatsoever) where does that leave us? And I ask again;  in verifying this "great secret" that everyone already knew and talked about openly (ie. the film's makers), what has the Alien been stripped of? The exact same mysteries are still in play even now (Why is the Space Jockey towing alien eggs? How did he come to be infected? Who was the target of said eggs? What happened to the creature that hatched from his chest? Where is the rest of the crew? Was there anymore crew? Did the Space Jockey create the alien or was it born of an experiment like a bio-weapon?). The only question that has been explicitly answered by Prometheus is simply 'what did the Space Jockey look like?' since we still know so little about their race whatsoever. 

 

Technically Aliens demystified Alien by providing solid answers such as 'what laid the eggs' and 'were the creatures indigenous to LV426'. Yet you're not waxing lyrical about how there's been some great injustice has been done by that film. The 'cargo' question has been a non-entity for decades, that it now has a solid answer impacts NOTHING in Alien whatsoever. It's still the mysterious creature it was before with a completely unknown origin. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Gazz

[dashrendar44]

You didn't read any of that, did you?

 

And you didn't understand the difference. The point is not the cargo.

 

The point is:

 

Space Jockeys are transporting one of their multiple creations, their bio-weapons they designed and conceived with black goo in their labs for their special purposes (demystification) = Prometheus

 

vs

 

Space Jockeys are trying to use some kind of superior lifeform they discovered as a biohazard weapon and freeze them in a cargo. (shred of mystery remaining about its real origins) = Alien

Edited June 3, 2014 by dashrendar44

[Hatebox]

I like Aliens almost has much as Alien, but in some ways I don't see it as a sequel to Alien.  If you really wanna be honest, the Alien in Alien was very smart, and the ones in Aliens jumped in front of machines guns without hesitation.  Also, Aliens turned the Alien into just a species of giant killer space bugs that needed a queen(demystification wink wink) in order to survive or they were fucked.  In Alien, the creature could just morph its victims into eggs, which was a far more disturbing/original concept(I know it was a deleted scene, but it was creepy as fuck and made a dark, twisted, horror movie even better).

 

Agreed. Aliens is great fun, but it's an action movie through and through. Its Aliens were never scary, as great as the Queen's design was.

[Gazz]

Space Jockeys are transporting one of their multiple creations,

 

Straight off the bat and you're already wrong.

 

There's nothing in Prometheus that tells us the aliens are the result of experimentation. All we know is that they are experimented on/with by these space-gods. We don't know to what end or purpose but we do know that they can't be contained in either form (natural egg(?) Alien/ bio-weapon urn: Prometheus) . The film poses many questions as to the Engineers relationship to the alien (some of them appear religious) but it doesn't provide answers to the creature's origins at all.

 

Space Jockeys are trying to use some kind of superior lifeform they discovered as a biohazard weapon and freeze them in a cargo. (shred of mystery remaining about its real origins) = Alien

 

Exactly that still stands after Prometheus.

 

Of all the possible sticks to beat Prometheus with, why choose the one that has no impact? 

[dashrendar44]

 Straight off the bat and you're already wrong.

 

There's nothing in Prometheus that tells us the aliens are the result of experimentation. All we know is that they are experimented on/with by these space-gods. We don't know to what end or purpose but we do know that they can't be contained in either form (natural egg(?) Alien/ bio-weapon urn: Prometheus) . The film poses many questions as to the Engineers relationship to the alien (some of them appear religious) but it doesn't provide answers to the creature's origins

 

 

Lulwut?

 

The proto-alien is the result of the black goo that the space jockeys know can produce such creatures hence the sculpture and replicate them as bio-weapons so yes they're experimenting and creating them as well. It implies that black goo incubates in a host that will have sexual encounter with one of his mates to produce a squid/giant facehugger that lay eggs into another humanoid host then gives birth to a chestburster/alien.(Ludicrous but that's what is presented in the movie). It also implies that the black goo is a mutation agent that transforms organic things (turning worms into petting snake vaginas) so the Alien is a result of a transformation/mutation involving humanoid DNA to do so (Fifield, Shaw giving birth to the facehugger that will attack an engineer breeding an alien) therefore it's impossible that the Alien species pre-exist as the form we commonly know about without some kind of humanoid genes interspersed.

 

That means that the proto-alien is certainly a queen that will lay eggs as a result. In fact, that totally ties with Aliens too.

Edited June 3, 2014 by dashrendar44

[Caboose]

Gentlemen pls.